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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C00-C19: French BAD for + 2600 less bad for -2500 (Read 38272 times)
Dean
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Re: French BAD for + 2600 and less bad for -2500
Reply #19 - 07/16/09 at 20:46:28
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Well, the stats was of course BOTH players inside the interval (as given).

Then it is true that you would prefer ELO-performance statistics relative average ELO of players. I don't know if you can do that with Chess Assistant though. Actually I think that CA is rather crappy for statistics.

It is possible that in those groups for example mostly lower rated 2600-players played the french.
  
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Willempie
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Re: French BAD for + 2600 and less bad for -2500
Reply #18 - 07/16/09 at 20:14:36
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Well, let's just say it is bad for Kamsky.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Antillian
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Re: French BAD for + 2600 and less bad for -2500
Reply #17 - 07/16/09 at 20:00:03
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kylemeister wrote on 07/16/09 at 19:52:14:
I don't quite get the last couple of posts, given that the statistics above concern games in which both players were at the same 100-point (e.g. 2600s) level.


Right, my bad. Didn't read probably.
  

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Göran
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Re: French BAD for + 2600 and less bad for -2500
Reply #16 - 07/16/09 at 19:56:50
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Sorry, if that is the case then I don't understand Antillian's post. Perhaps you would like to elaborate on it Antillian?
  

What kind of proof is that?
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kylemeister
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Re: French BAD for + 2600 and less bad for -2500
Reply #15 - 07/16/09 at 19:52:14
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I don't quite get the last couple of posts, given that the statistics above concern games in which both players were at the same 100-point (e.g. 2600s) level.
  
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Göran
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Re: French BAD for + 2600 and less bad for -2500
Reply #14 - 07/16/09 at 19:42:53
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That's right, statistics and lies are closely related if you are not very very carefull.

Find all 2600+ meeting 2600+ in the French perhaps could be more fair!?
  

What kind of proof is that?
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Antillian
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Re: French BAD for + 2600 and less bad for -2500
Reply #13 - 07/16/09 at 19:13:46
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Statistics, lies and damn lies!

With the French being less popular at the 2600 level , then White 2600's are likely to have a disproportionate number of their French games against lower rated players, skewing the data. So you really cannot rely on mere percentages. Surely performance ratings would be a more reliable, if still imperfect indicator than simply mere percentage scores.
  

"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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Dean
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Re: French BAD for + 2600 and less bad for -2500
Reply #12 - 07/16/09 at 18:59:39
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I agree with Hacker, there definitely seems to be some kind of trend. Also, before I checked the data I have had that opinion myself that above 2600 French is more problematic.

My theory is that it is relatively difficult to play white in the French. Black's plans are often a bit more easy and straightforward. But on higher levels, with the necessary skill, black gets more problems.

Would be interesting with similar data on other openings if someone has the time/inspiration. Or perhaps break it down on French sub-variations.
  
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Re: French BAD for + 2600 and less bad for -2500
Reply #11 - 07/16/09 at 18:41:30
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Agree with everything you say Stigma but still it coud be an interesting topic why 2600+ is doing a bit worse as Black, couldn't it?
  

What kind of proof is that?
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Stigma
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Re: French BAD for + 2600 and less bad for -2500
Reply #10 - 07/16/09 at 17:59:34
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If any of the posters here ever has the "problem" of relying on the French and then reaching 2600 or 2700, I would argue that the time spent studying and playing French positions is still not wasted, even if you ultimately have to switch.

The typical French closed centre with its thematic fights is relevant for so many topical openings, like the Caro-Kann (Advance and Fantasy variations, among others), the Nimzo-Indian, the Torre, the Trompowsky, the Catalan, the c3 Sicilian, the Grand Prix Attack, Open Sicilians where Black gets to break with ...d5, some Modern Defence lines, the Alekhine, the Keres System against the English - the list goes on and on. I am certain that a talented 2600+ player with French experience will be able to make good use of his deep understanding of closed centres and pawn chains when rebuilding his top-level repertoire.
  

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Re: French BAD for + 2600 and less bad for -2500
Reply #9 - 07/16/09 at 17:21:59
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Does not this statistics makes Pingudon question relevant to discuss?

I am myself in the process of taking up the French independent of statistics. 
I think however that bringing up one game with 600 elo points in difference really could backfire and as best isn't very relevant.

Why not take Kortschnoj as an example- about 350 games as Black or Uhlmann - life long commitment on highest level.

I often got the impression, can not explain why, that it is the fighters that are very much committted to the French.


  

What kind of proof is that?
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Re: French BAD for + 2600 and less bad for -2500
Reply #8 - 07/16/09 at 16:43:49
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Here are some statistics of white's score from my DB:
Both players 1.e4          1.e4 e6
2700+          55.8%       60.6%
2600+          57.1%       60.7%
2500-2600    54.6%       54.8%
2400-2500    54.7%       55.3%
2300-2400    54.3%       54.7%

A bit curious numbers...

I suppose you can say that the French is slightly worse than other e4 defences, but I think this is mainly due to the Sicilian success.  
Also, there is some support for that the French is "good up to 2600".

Why do 2600 players score best with white?  Well, at least in general you could expect that the advantage of white increases with rating but the draw-tendency catches up.
  
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Re: French BAD for + 2600 and less bad for -2500
Reply #7 - 07/16/09 at 16:00:16
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As a lifetime French Defence fan who thinks its a great opening and loves playing it, I can nevertheless see the point of view that it is not a 100% correct opening. To prove this in practice is quite a different matter though and the French remains a uniquely tricky and quirky opening. Its correctness is a philosophical question which should only really matter to the World Champion and maybe 20 other players in the world - the rest of us can play what we like.
  
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Re: French BAD for + 2600 and less bad for -2500
Reply #6 - 07/16/09 at 11:47:07
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Game Shirov-Kagramanov, Canadian Open 2009 is given here: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1548002

Shirov played French as Black and worked about French Advance after his work on Sveshnikov's analysis and books...
  

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Re: French BAD for + 2600 and less bad for -2500
Reply #5 - 07/16/09 at 11:34:48
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Thanks a lot for you answer TN and MNb. But I really love you answer TN.  Wink I am myself a hard to die French player but you hear so many things that some times it cast some doubts. As a matter of fact I was looking for French lovers that gave this kind of answers. Thanks a lot guys. People like you make this forum GREAT!!
  
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