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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Modern Benoni Repertoire (Read 53953 times)
TN
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Re: Modern Benoni Repertoire
Reply #42 - 11/17/10 at 04:58:14
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The last 6 Posts were moved here from Nimzo and Benonis [move by] TN.
  
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Re: Modern Benoni Repertoire
Reply #41 - 11/02/10 at 18:57:45
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Markovich wrote on 11/01/10 at 15:51:24:
Paul Cumbers wrote on 10/31/10 at 22:02:37:
[quote author=15392A33372E313B30580 link=1249207479/32#32 date=1288399986]
I've tried 2...c5 a few times, and 3.e3 has been the most common response. I can't say I'm happier facing the Colle than I am the Torre or London! (Out of the frying pan... Roll Eyes)

With 2...e6, there's still a chance of Benoni, viz. 3.c4 c5 4.d5 - I've had this before. It's unusual for White to play this way of course, but perhaps no less unusual than 2...c5 3.d5 e6 4.c4.


Maybe this is true at the club level, but in my data base after 2...e6, White plays 3.c4 much more than any other move, and more than 39% of the time.  Surely it's White's best move.



I agree.  In my experience, 2..e6 gives you a better chance than 2..c5 of getting a position that you want.
  
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Re: Modern Benoni Repertoire
Reply #40 - 11/01/10 at 17:39:36
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Well at some point you have to talk chess, and for some reason here it came down to White's avoidance attempts.  I don't agree that that's off topic, though clearly there is another thread devoted to the same line.  What is clear is that the etymology of "Habichd" and so on, and so forth, is off topic.

When you said "I mentioned earlier," I took that to mean what you said in the other thread.  But we quibble.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Modern Benoni Repertoire
Reply #39 - 11/01/10 at 16:05:22
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Markovich wrote on 11/01/10 at 15:40:10:
TalJechin wrote on 11/01/10 at 14:26:35:
and move all this "2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 without c4" stuff to it's proper thread as I mentioned earlier: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1085643061


I followed that link to a post that isn't yours, so I can't figure out what you mean.  Clearly this thread is in the right part of the forum though, eh?


I've never said it was mine. But the topic title is pretty telling wouldn't you say? i.e: "1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nc3"

And it's in the same section as this one, so I don't understand your other comment.

This thread is supposedly about a "Modern Benoni Repertoire" not white's attempt to avoid the Modern Benoni. Otherwise we could just as well discuss almost everything else here, Tromp, 2.c3, Catalan etc etc
  
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Re: Modern Benoni Repertoire
Reply #38 - 11/01/10 at 15:51:24
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Paul Cumbers wrote on 10/31/10 at 22:02:37:
[quote author=15392A33372E313B30580 link=1249207479/32#32 date=1288399986]
I've tried 2...c5 a few times, and 3.e3 has been the most common response. I can't say I'm happier facing the Colle than I am the Torre or London! (Out of the frying pan... Roll Eyes)

With 2...e6, there's still a chance of Benoni, viz. 3.c4 c5 4.d5 - I've had this before. It's unusual for White to play this way of course, but perhaps no less unusual than 2...c5 3.d5 e6 4.c4.


Maybe this is true at the club level, but in my data base after 2...e6, White plays 3.c4 much more than any other move, and more than 39% of the time.  Surely it's White's best move.

One thing worth noting is that after 2...e6 3.g3, Black has the very interesting 3...b5!?, though 3...c5 is no doubt just as good.
  
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Re: Modern Benoni Repertoire
Reply #37 - 11/01/10 at 15:40:10
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TalJechin wrote on 11/01/10 at 14:26:35:
and move all this "2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 without c4" stuff to it's proper thread as I mentioned earlier: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1085643061


I followed that link to a post that isn't yours, so I can't figure out what you mean.  Clearly this thread is in the right part of the forum though, eh?
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Modern Benoni Repertoire
Reply #36 - 11/01/10 at 14:26:35
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and move all this "2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 without c4" stuff to it's proper thread as I mentioned earlier: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1085643061
  
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Re: Modern Benoni Repertoire
Reply #35 - 10/30/10 at 13:00:08
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 10/30/10 at 12:03:23:
TalJechin wrote on 10/30/10 at 09:32:24:
Btw, is Bücker's 3...c4 "Der Habichd" refuted nowadays? 

Das Habichd is fine, I think, with an extra tempo, like 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 d4 3.c5. Regarding the version with a tempo less, hmm, give me a bit more time. I'll reply very soon when Rybka 7 is available.


Hmm, so it was "das" after all - you can't trust the wiki anymore (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habichd)



Btw, if Black is willing to consider 3.d5 e6 4.Nc3 b5 - why not simply go 3...b5 ? Or is it just wimpy to put the b-pawn on b5 if it's not en prise?

Sure "the forgive and forget"-e6 4.c4 may be something to hope for, but on the other hand; a possible Benko may be better than a strange Blumenfeld.
  
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Re: Modern Benoni Repertoire
Reply #34 - 10/30/10 at 12:03:23
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TalJechin wrote on 10/30/10 at 09:32:24:
Btw, is Bücker's 3...c4 "Der Habichd" refuted nowadays? 

Das Habichd is fine, I think, with an extra tempo, like 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 d4 3.c5. Regarding the version with a tempo less, hmm, give me a bit more time. I'll reply very soon when Rybka 7 is available.
  
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Re: Modern Benoni Repertoire
Reply #33 - 10/30/10 at 09:32:24
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Markovich wrote on 10/30/10 at 00:53:06:
Blast!  What I meant was 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nc3 b5 5.dxe6 fxe6 6.Nxb5 d5 7.Nc3! Be7 8.e4 (8.e3!? +=) d4 9.e5 dxc3 10.Qxd8+ Bxd8 11.exf6 Bxf6 12.Rb1! Bb7 13.bxc3 Bxf3 14.gxf3 Bxc3+ 15.Ke2! += and so forth.  Terribly sorry about that.

6...Nc6 is interesting but I can't understand your analysis after that, which doesn't comport with the preceding moves.

8...O-O is possible, but I think it's one more case of the gambiteer having about half a pawn's worth of comp for his pawn.

At the end of the day, I think that the Benoni player's best move is 2...e6.


Aha, I just assumed you'd pasted the line from CB, otherwise I might have picked up on the sloppy move order.

Btw, is Bücker's 3...c4 "Der Habichd" refuted nowadays?
  
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Re: Modern Benoni Repertoire
Reply #32 - 10/30/10 at 00:53:06
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Blast!  What I meant was 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nc3 b5 5.dxe6 fxe6 6.Nxb5 d5 7.Nc3! Be7 8.e4 (8.e3!? +=) d4 9.e5 dxc3 10.Qxd8+ Bxd8 11.exf6 Bxf6 12.Rb1! Bb7 13.bxc3 Bxf3 14.gxf3 Bxc3+ 15.Ke2! += and so forth.  Terribly sorry about that.

6...Nc6 is interesting but I can't understand your analysis after that, which doesn't comport with the preceding moves.

8...O-O is possible, but I think it's one more case of the gambiteer having about half a pawn's worth of comp for his pawn.

At the end of the day, I think that the Benoni player's best move is 2...e6.
  
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Re: Modern Benoni Repertoire
Reply #31 - 10/29/10 at 19:04:15
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Markovich wrote on 10/29/10 at 18:18:56:
Markovich wrote on 03/25/10 at 13:13:54:
Markovich wrote on 08/17/09 at 12:45:23:
Returning to the original topic, I think that Palliser's Modern Benoni Revealed is an outstanding book.  I have some issues with mode of organization of the "Revealed" series, but notwithstanding that, Palliser's book is quite readable and jammed with useful information.  Also Palliser is an avid practitioner of the Modern Benoni and as such, dishes out a lot of useful practical advice.

Having said that, I would like to call attention to a small error in this book.  Against 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3, Palliser advocates 2...c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nc3 exd5 5.Nxd5 Nxd5 6.Qxd5 d6 "!" and remarks that after 7.Ng5 (7.e4 is more usual) 7...Qf6 Black is good in the complications that follow.  But Black is by no means good after 8.Nxh7!, which just wins a pawn.  There is a GM game from the 90s (sorry, I forget who the players were) that continued 8...Qf5 9.Qxf5 Bxf5 10.Nxf8 and now with 10...Nc6?! Black pretended that he had comp.  White allowed himself to be bluffed and played 10.c3.  But 10.Bf4! would have left Black even worse off than if he'd played 10...Kxf8.  So much for 7...Qf6!  

If Black's previous play can be justified, it must be by means of 7...Qe7.  However this doesn't look too terribly bad for Black, So I think that 3...e6 may hold up.  Black also has 3...b5!?, of course, but I would think that a Modern Benoni player might prefer 3...e6 with its invitation to "forgive and forget" after 4.c4.

Last of all, as pointed out by Palliser, Black can fall back on 2...e6.  This is unobjectionable, but it does require him to prepare for the Torre and the London.


More on this subject.  I've looked some more at 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nc3 exd5 5.Nxd5 Nxd5 6.Qxd5 d6 7.Ng5 Qe7, and I really don't like Black's game after 8.Bf4 Be6 9.Nxe6 fxe6 10.Qh5+.  E.g. 10...g6 11.Qg4 appears to be "w" in my parlance (http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1266527927) . So my provisional conclusion is that 4...exd5 is no good.

However 4...b5 looks quite interesting.  We discussed this briefly before, though I have been unable to locate the thread.  I recall saying that 5.dxe6 fxe6 6.Nxb5 d5 7.Nc3 looked strong to me, intending soon e2-e4.  But more recently I noticed 7...Be7 8.e4 d4! 9.e5 dxc3 10.exf3 Qxd1+ 11.Kxd1 Bxf6 and Black seems to be O.K.  To take advantage of 7...Be7 it would seem that White has to refrain from 8.e4. 


I've looked further at this, and I've concluded that after 11...Bxf6, Black confronts a dreary endgame after 12.Rb1! (as opposed to 12.b3= as mentioned in the DW book, which I have since purchased).  I can see nothing better for Black than 12...Bb7 13.bxc3 Bxf3 14.gxf3 Bxc3+ 15.Ke2! Nc6 16.Bh3, after which, whatever winning chances exist certainly belong to White.  I am not enough of a technician to be very sure of the degree of Black's drawing chances, but I assume that they're fairly substantial.  I find this line unappetizing for Black, but I might not feel that way if the draw were a mere matter of technique. 

In general in chess opening theory, I think that Black can be satisfied with a draw that is readily accessible with fairly evident technique, but not with one over which he has to puzzle very hard.


Your "15.Ke2!" is 'drivel' of course. With the king already on d1 white has better moves, and should have good chances to play for the win.

It seems to me that ...d6 is the problem.

How about 6...Nc6 7.Bg5 Qb6 8.Ne5 Nxe5 9.Qxe5+ Qe6 seems to hold. So maybe 7.e4 is best 7...Be7 8.Bc4 0-0 9.Bf4 d6 10.0-0-0 and white has an edge obviously, but maybe black can get enough counter-play for the eventual loss of d6. At least there seems to be some tricks after 10...Be6 11.Qd3 Qb6 12.Bxe6 fxe6 13.Bxd6 Nb4 etc


Edit, there is another old thread on this subject:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1085643061
« Last Edit: 10/29/10 at 20:41:12 by TalJechin »  
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Re: Modern Benoni Repertoire
Reply #30 - 10/29/10 at 18:18:56
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Markovich wrote on 03/25/10 at 13:13:54:
Markovich wrote on 08/17/09 at 12:45:23:
Returning to the original topic, I think that Palliser's Modern Benoni Revealed is an outstanding book.  I have some issues with mode of organization of the "Revealed" series, but notwithstanding that, Palliser's book is quite readable and jammed with useful information.  Also Palliser is an avid practitioner of the Modern Benoni and as such, dishes out a lot of useful practical advice.

Having said that, I would like to call attention to a small error in this book.  Against 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3, Palliser advocates 2...c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nc3 exd5 5.Nxd5 Nxd5 6.Qxd5 d6 "!" and remarks that after 7.Ng5 (7.e4 is more usual) 7...Qf6 Black is good in the complications that follow.  But Black is by no means good after 8.Nxh7!, which just wins a pawn.  There is a GM game from the 90s (sorry, I forget who the players were) that continued 8...Qf5 9.Qxf5 Bxf5 10.Nxf8 and now with 10...Nc6?! Black pretended that he had comp.  White allowed himself to be bluffed and played 10.c3.  But 10.Bf4! would have left Black even worse off than if he'd played 10...Kxf8.  So much for 7...Qf6!  

If Black's previous play can be justified, it must be by means of 7...Qe7.  However this doesn't look too terribly bad for Black, So I think that 3...e6 may hold up.  Black also has 3...b5!?, of course, but I would think that a Modern Benoni player might prefer 3...e6 with its invitation to "forgive and forget" after 4.c4.

Last of all, as pointed out by Palliser, Black can fall back on 2...e6.  This is unobjectionable, but it does require him to prepare for the Torre and the London.


More on this subject.  I've looked some more at 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nc3 exd5 5.Nxd5 Nxd5 6.Qxd5 d6 7.Ng5 Qe7, and I really don't like Black's game after 8.Bf4 Be6 9.Nxe6 fxe6 10.Qh5+.  E.g. 10...g6 11.Qg4 appears to be "w" in my parlance (http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1266527927) . So my provisional conclusion is that 4...exd5 is no good.

However 4...b5 looks quite interesting.  We discussed this briefly before, though I have been unable to locate the thread.  I recall saying that 5.dxe6 fxe6 6.Nxb5 d5 7.Nc3 looked strong to me, intending soon e2-e4.  But more recently I noticed 7...Be7 8.e4 d4! 9.e5 dxc3 10.exf3 Qxd1+ 11.Kxd1 Bxf6 and Black seems to be O.K.  To take advantage of 7...Be7 it would seem that White has to refrain from 8.e4. 


I've looked further at this, and I've concluded that after 11...Bxf6, Black confronts a dreary endgame after 12.Rb1! (as opposed to 12.b3= as mentioned in the DW book, which I have since purchased).  I can see nothing better for Black than 12...Bb7 13.bxc3 Bxf3 14.gxf3 Bxc3+ 15.Ke2! Nc6 16.Bh3, after which, whatever winning chances exist certainly belong to White.  I am not enough of a technician to be very sure of the degree of Black's drawing chances, but I assume that they're fairly substantial.  I find this line unappetizing for Black, but I might not feel that way if the draw were a mere matter of technique. 

In general in chess opening theory, I think that Black can be satisfied with a draw that is readily accessible with fairly evident technique, but not with one over which he has to puzzle very hard.
  
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Re: Modern Benoni Repertoire
Reply #29 - 03/30/10 at 07:59:27
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Markovich wrote on 03/29/10 at 12:51:42:
Taken line for line, work is generally up a fairly high standard, I agree, though a certain bias does seem to creep in.  My main critique is global: if you look critically at the basic idea it often turns out to be dubious.  I'm not sure about your repertoire point, since the lines recommended are usually so offbeat that they don't often seem like plausible candidates for including in anyone's repertoire.

I've looked some more at the "Pseudo-Blumenfeld," for example, and I have some doubts about the soundness of the pawn sac.  I don't have the relevant DW book, of course.

I wonder if anyone really needs to buy a $25 book just to learn that there are some dicey ideas out there.  It's enough to know the table of contents so that you can be prepared for the particular dicey ideas that have been popularized, then hope someone plays one of them.  Maybe I'm over-stating my case, since not all these DW books are the same. 

I admit that I'm pretty disgusted with the whole DW/SOS thing.  Although I've given in and bought three or four of these, I sort of wish I hadn't.


I have the e4 e5 and Open Sicilian DW and I find them overall pretty good. It all depends what you are looking for. Not all suggestions are viable but most of the time they are refreshing looks at neglected ideas.

  
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Re: Modern Benoni Repertoire
Reply #28 - 03/29/10 at 12:51:42
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Taken line for line, work is generally up a fairly high standard, I agree, though a certain bias does seem to creep in.  My main critique is global: if you look critically at the basic idea it often turns out to be dubious.  I'm not sure about your repertoire point, since the lines recommended are usually so offbeat that they don't often seem like plausible candidates for including in anyone's repertoire.

I've looked some more at the "Pseudo-Blumenfeld," for example, and I have some doubts about the soundness of the pawn sac.  I don't have the relevant DW book, of course.

I wonder if anyone really needs to buy a $25 book just to learn that there are some dicey ideas out there.  It's enough to know the table of contents so that you can be prepared for the particular dicey ideas that have been popularized, then hope someone plays one of them.  Maybe I'm over-stating my case, since not all these DW books are the same. 

I admit that I'm pretty disgusted with the whole DW/SOS thing.  Although I've given in and bought three or four of these, I sort of wish I hadn't.
  
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