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Poll Question: Among all lines in Spanish the Modern/Deffered Steinitz is:
bars   pie

passive but with less theory    
  14 (19.4%)
solid but not a play for win    
  13 (18.1%)
active (specify why)    
  5 (6.9%)
recommended (specify why)    
  5 (6.9%)
not recommneded (write why)    
  8 (11.1%)
cuts down a load of theory    
  15 (20.8%)
White has an edge (where)    
  12 (16.7%)




Total votes: 72
« Created by: rossia on: 02/16/11 at 12:23:55 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Slay the Spanish! (Read 93393 times)
NeverGiveUp
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #116 - 05/24/11 at 07:45:32
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A PS here: I still got the first edition of ECO "C" (I think from 1974). Although it's obviously very old now, this is one of the best books on the Modern Steinitz ever written!
  
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NeverGiveUp
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #115 - 05/24/11 at 07:42:17
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I'm afraid you guys are right - I use Taylor's book in combination with other references (in particular ECO). As stand-alone it would probably be insufficient.
  
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fling
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #114 - 05/24/11 at 05:10:30
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It seems like in Taylor's books, he presents interesting ideas, but he leaves out a lot of the critical variations.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #113 - 05/23/11 at 21:08:07
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Speaking of that last line, one of the things Taylor apparently ignored is 11. b4.  That was considered a problem for Black by Timman when he annotated Motylev-Timman 2005 in NIC magazine (the game also appeared in an article by IM Tibor Karolyi in the Yearbook and was cited by MCO).
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #112 - 05/23/11 at 20:51:19
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and against the exchange?  Smiley
  
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NeverGiveUp
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #111 - 05/23/11 at 10:25:24
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In particular over last weekend, but also before, I have been working hard to get a black repertoire against the Modern Steinitz (MS) in place using Taylor's book and other references I have. I think I got there now and have a repertoire for next season that is rock-solid!

A short summary for you guys.
After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6

-Against 5.Bc6:+ bc6: 6.d4:
Go 6. ... ed4(!) as recommended by Taylor And now 7.Qd4: c5 8.Qd3 Ne7 9.0-0 Rb8 followed by Be7-f6 =, or 7.Nd4: c5 8.Ne2 Nf6 9.Nbc3 Bb7 10.Ng3 g6 =.

-Against 5.c3:
Go 5. ... f5!? Siesta. The pawn sac 6.ef5: Bf5: 7.d4!? e4 8.Ng5 d5 7.f3 e3! is very doable for black (=), and the main line 7.0-0 Bd3 8.Re1 Be7 9.Bc2 Bc2: 10.Qc2: Nf6 11.d4 e4 12.Ng5 d5 13.f3 h6 14.Nh3 0-0 15.Nd2 ef3: 16.Nf3: Rf7! promises white nothing (=). White's results in this latter line have been 48%!

-Against 5.0-0 (!)
White's best line.
I recommend the unusual 5. ... Nge7!? with the point 6.d4 ed4:(!) 7.Nd4: b5 8.Nc6: Nc6: 9.Bb3 Na5 =. The pawn sac 7.c3!? is interesting but probably insufficient after 7. ... dc3: 8.Nc3: Bd7. So white's best bet may be transposing to the Rubinstein varation with 6.c3 Bd7 7.d4 Ng6 and this is very doable for black after 8.Nbd2 Be7 9.Re1 0-0 10.Nf1 Qe8! (Larsen) or 8.d5 Nb8 9.c4 Be7 (b5!? Sokolov) 10.Nc3 h6 11.Bd7: Nd7: 12.Be3 Bg5. The verdict (me and Taylor) here is again =.

I am very positive about Taylor's book. Definitely recommended.
  
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NeverGiveUp
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #110 - 05/20/11 at 10:10:18
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Apparently the King's Indian didn't work for Larsen. Some openings work for some people, and some openings do not. I never got any results with the French, both with black and with white, so I am staying away from it. Why I don't get results? I don't know. The French is of course a perfectly respectable opening. The essential thing is to find out what works for you.

To get back to the thread, I haven't had much experience with the Modern Steinitz yet, but the lines are very much in line with other lines I play, so I expect them to suit me well. The MS certainly appeals to me a great deal for the following reasons:
1.You're throwing your own line on the board as early as move 4.
2.Against white's main continuations, black has several options, so there is scope to vary within the system.      
3.Theoretically black is doing quite well.
4.The MS is totally out of fashion so most whites will not have faced it frequently (maybe might not have faced it at all) and may not know what to do against it - they might even have forgotten the theory!
5.I'm a big fan of Keres. He was great.
  
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #109 - 05/19/11 at 18:31:23
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Indeed I recall some words like this from Larsen:  "When I toss the Modern Benoni into the basket marked 'incorrect,' Gligoric will probably agree, but he will not understand what his beloved King's Indian is doing there, and my 'feeling' will not convince him."  Larsen played the KID quite a few times after writing that, however.
  
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #108 - 05/19/11 at 18:15:05
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 05/19/11 at 14:26:55:
NeverGiveUp wrote on 05/19/11 at 12:55:57:
Larsen said he doesn't like to play a line he knows has been refuted.

I thought what he actually said was that he didn't like to play a line he knew was refuted more than once a year, or something of that ilk. Obviously that doesn't have quite the same sense! Roll Eyes

Larsen said he never played a dubious line if he thought the opponent might be able to refute it over the board. Repeating sick ideas doesn't sound Larsen-ish. Yes, he invited Tal to play Nxf7 in the Alekhine, but it took decades until a refutation was worked out. Larsen did sometimes play the King's Indian, although he didn't regard it as fully correct. His explanation was that he played the KI only when he felt out of form. During a KI game he felt "in danger" and instinctively played with utter care.
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #107 - 05/19/11 at 14:26:55
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 05/19/11 at 12:55:57:
Larsen said he doesn't like to play a line he knows has been refuted.

I thought what he actually said was that he didn't like to play a line he knew was refuted more than once a year, or something of that ilk. Obviously that doesn't have quite the same sense! Roll Eyes
  
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #106 - 05/19/11 at 12:55:57
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SWJediknight wrote on 05/17/11 at 16:01:01:
Aye, it's all about tolerance for risk.  In my experience most club players don't have a lot of theoretical knowledge and you can generally get away with lines like this


Spot on - this is a dilemma I'm facing as well. I've played the riga varaition of the ruy lopez (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Ne4: 6.d4 ed4:) loads of times but it has now been busted - but the refutation is so incredibly complicated I might never get it? Still Larsen said he doesn't like to play a line he knows has been refuted. You might just come across this one opponent who goes all the way right into the refutation ... and even club players can have a (very) high degree of opening knowledge.

SWJediknight wrote on 05/17/11 at 16:01:01:
I didn't know about the NIC review on the Siesta, thanks for that.


The Siesta is now one of black's best lines in the MS, theoretically and maybe pracically as well.

SWJediknight wrote on 05/17/11 at 16:01:01:
The 5.0-0 Nge7 looks interesting- does Taylor actually address this?


He does and he doesn't: Nge7 after 0-0 is covered in a chapter ("the knight defence"), but he doesn't mention Nge7 on move 5. Taylor just mentions the standard reply 5. ... Bd7 which has the deficit though that after 6.d4! ed4: white goes 7.Bc6:! and black is worse. So Taylor recommends playing 6. ... Nf6! after 6.d4, but black can't play the Rubinstein any more. So if you like the Rubinstein (I do!) then 5. ... Nge7 might be a way to get into it.

I am currrently studying the Rubinstein and it's an amazingly complex variation, and very tactical. If black knows what he's doing then it is very difficult for white to achieve anything, and white may easily get into trouble. Even a giant like Fisher was struggling against the Rubinstein. Since the variations are so unusual and most whites may never had a game with it, there is a big potential for scoring points with black here.
I don't agree with Taylor that the Rubinstein is no good if white plays 5.c3 and refrains from castling.      
  
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #105 - 05/17/11 at 16:01:01
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Aye, it's all about tolerance for risk.  In my experience most club players don't have a lot of theoretical knowledge and you can generally get away with lines like this,, e.g. I've played the 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 line about 50 times and have never faced 4.f3 Bf5 5.g4 even once, but I know that I would give it up if I had one or two bruising experiences against prepared opponents- some players don't consider that sort of thing worth the risk, and that's absolutely fine.   I've only had a handful of games with the Modern Steinitz and have yet to face 5.0-0 or 5.c3, although one casual game went 5.Bxc6+ bxc6 6.0-0 Bg4 7.h3 h5, transposing to the line where Black is OK after 8.d4 Bxf3! 9.Qxf3 exd4 (in the game itself White erred with 8.hxg4).

Taylor's 12...Nh6 suggestion was in the extract I saw at Amazon but he still reckons that White is better with best play (and I agree).

I didn't know about the NIC review on the Siesta, thanks for that.  The 5.0-0 Nge7 looks interesting- does Taylor actually address this?
  
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #104 - 05/17/11 at 15:26:34
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 05/13/11 at 13:45:19:
SWJediknight wrote on 05/13/11 at 10:09:11:
Shipov suggested that 16...Bxg5 17.fxg5 c6 might have given more chances.


This suggestion does look very sensible and is most probably much better than the game continuation. So maybe black is still (reasonably?) all right after 12.Qd3


Well, i think Taylor thinks that 12...Nh6 is best, since the knight is still trapped on g5 so maybe the gambit is still ok. Still think that if i was a GM, it would probably only work on suprise value, i doubt it would work against a prepared opponent since i think there are numerous tries for an edge for White. But, that doesnt mean that the line is refuted
« Last Edit: 05/18/11 at 13:59:54 by Arcticmonkey »  
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #103 - 05/17/11 at 15:03:53
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SWJediknight wrote on 05/17/11 at 14:35:55:
[quote author=4A666E7F6A6564627F64780B0 link=1249478553/51#51 date=1298105450]
I am not convinced that the same won't happen with the Siesta in the next decade- it looks sound for the moment, but Tim Harding's article illustrates that the final verdict in the most critical line has yet to be reached.

But as you say, Black has decent solid ideas to fall back upon including 5...Nge7, and 5...Bd7 followed by ...g6 or ...Nge7-g6.


Thanks for this.

There has been a review in NIC by AC van der Tak on the Siesta called "Black can sleep quietly in the Siesta variation" which is a sequel on an earlier article where van der Tak was waiting for improvements of white which he says have "failed to materialise", so this variation has been about for a long long time now without white being able to achieve anything serious. It looks like one of black's best lines within the MS complex, although the Rubinstein is also pretty good albeit totally out of fashion nowadays (what is an advantage as far as I'm concerned). Smiley

5.0-0 is definitely critical and limits blacks option considerably. Keres also played 5.0-0 himself.

On club level the Yandemirov may be OK, feel free to play around with it, but don't underestimate the theoretical knowledge of club players! Myself I don't like playing lines that are theoretically basically unsound. Undecided 

The interesting point about 5.0-0 Nge7!? is that it may almost force white into going into the Rubinstein since 6.d4 is probably not very good - very contrary to 5.0-0 Bd7 6.d4! where white is doing very well and black is in trouble. Roll Eyes
  
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #102 - 05/17/11 at 14:35:55
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Ametanoitos wrote on 02/19/11 at 08:50:50:
Black gets the piece back but White maintains a healthy advantage in 2 or 3 ways. Kritz believes that the position is unclear and only the "old" line with c4 Rb8 etc gives an advantage for Black. My opinion is that Black has problems in more lines. You can always call these lines unclear but "unclear" just hides the truth from an inexperienced reader (or player). Deeper analysis reveals that White is just better. And his advantage is not a "slight" one.


Having seen some preview pages of "Slay the Spanish" over at Amazon, I tend to agree with Ametanoitos's assessment, and also Taylor's assessment in the book (beyond risky at 2600+ level but at lower levels/fast time limits players could have a lot of fun with it if they're prepared to take risks).  Deep analysis reveals that White has too many promising continuations at present for the line to be likely to make a comeback at high levels.   In that respect the line is like 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4, which at one time was considered respectable and quite popular with GMs, but is now under a cloud due to 4.f3 Bf5 5.g4 (analysed by Stefan Bucker at Kaissiber #32)- such is life with risky lines for Black in the computer era.

I am not convinced that the same won't happen with the Siesta in the next decade- it looks sound for the moment, but Tim Harding's article illustrates that the final verdict in the most critical line has yet to be reached.

But as you say, if one considers the risks to be too large, Black has decent solid ideas to fall back upon including 5...Nge7, and 5...Bd7 followed by ...g6 or ...Nge7-g6 (and they also work against 5.c3, if Black isn't tempted by the Siesta).
  
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