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Poll Question: Among all lines in Spanish the Modern/Deffered Steinitz is:
bars   pie

passive but with less theory    
  14 (19.4%)
solid but not a play for win    
  13 (18.1%)
active (specify why)    
  5 (6.9%)
recommended (specify why)    
  5 (6.9%)
not recommneded (write why)    
  8 (11.1%)
cuts down a load of theory    
  15 (20.8%)
White has an edge (where)    
  12 (16.7%)




Total votes: 72
« Created by: rossia on: 02/16/11 at 12:23:55 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Slay the Spanish! (Read 93589 times)
BabySnake
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #146 - 02/21/12 at 08:54:41
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Can you clarify what is meant by the "modern treatment of the Smyslov variation"?

I take it this is 9..Qd7 or 9..h6?
  
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Vass
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #145 - 02/21/12 at 08:28:23
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PANFR wrote on 02/21/12 at 06:39:38:
Yes, the Petrosian is the system with 12...Bd7 which is dealt by Marin in his book. And yes, the modern treatment of the Smyslov looks quite interesting.

So to speak, black is OK in the variations where the second player doesn't force things opening the centre..  Wink
I always liked the Petrosian variation for black. And I don't understand why this variation is somehow underestimated.  Shocked
  
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PANFR
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #144 - 02/21/12 at 06:39:38
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Yes, the Petrosian is the system with 12...Bd7 which is dealt by Marin in his book. And yes, the modern treatment of the Smyslov looks quite interesting.
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #143 - 02/20/12 at 20:48:38
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PANFR wrote on 02/16/12 at 16:52:07:
The best way to get "Closed Lopez type of positions" is actually playing the Closed Lopez... Tongue
Black is IMO in a fine shape in the Nenashev/Graf variation, as well as in the Petrosian variation, and most probably in the Breyer as well. Not so sure about the Zaitsev, which is too sharp to be evaluated briefly.


As for the "Petrosian" variation, are you reffering to one of the 2 systems Mihail Marin analysed in his book "Spanish Repertoire for Black"? In my opinion, the Smyslov System is in fine shape also.
  
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #142 - 02/16/12 at 22:52:31
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I recently drew against a higher-rated player with the 5.0-0 Bg4 6.h3 h5 line (like Arcticmonkey I doubt that Black is close to losing with best play, though it might be a rather strong += if White really knows what he/she is doing).  White played 7.d3 Qf6 8.Bxc6+ (in Svidler-Grischuk, 2008, Svidler played 8.c3 immediately here, but as Arcticmonkey discussed above 8.Nbd2 is probably more testing) 8...bxc6 9.c3 and I opted for the interesting endgame that results from the double exchange on f3.  The 7.d3 line is strongly reminiscent of White's optimal continuation against the 5...Bg4 6.h3 h5 line of the Exchange Ruy.

If I felt a need to give up on this line I would revert to using a different main defence to the Ruy- if I wanted to get a Closed Lopez type position I would just head straight for the Closed.

As for the 5.d4 line, I've caught a couple of players out with the Noah's Ark Trap line, and I agree with the 8...Bb7 being better than Taylor suggests.  White might be able to get enough compensation for a pawn, but that's all.
  
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PANFR
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #141 - 02/16/12 at 16:52:07
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The best way to get "Closed Lopez type of positions" is actually playing the Closed Lopez... Tongue
Black is IMO in a fine shape in the Nenashev/Graf variation, as well as in the Petrosian variation, and most probably in the Breyer as well. Not so sure about the Zaitsev, which is too sharp to be evaluated briefly.
  
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Tullius
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #140 - 02/16/12 at 16:38:06
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IMO 8...Bb7 is a serious alternative to play for win. Taylor dismisses to quickly 9.cxd4 Bxe4 because of 10.0-0 because of "a typical Open-Game e-Line attack". That maybe true but Black is a pawn up. It seems to me that this evaluation is superficially.

In the databases (i have Hugebase and BigDatabase 2011) only 5 games are know. The score is +3=1-0 in favour for White but an e-line- attack played no role in any game. In one game between lower rated players Black made an error in the 10th move and in the other games Black had at the end of the opening the better position or the position was at least unclear.

The "Chess Openings Encyclopdia 2010" (by Convekta) lists  the variation (after 8...Bb7)  as unclear (based on Velimirovic - Langeweg, 1988) or equal (Oll - Psakhis, 1987 - NCO sees here after 13.Qe2 an unclear position).

So i think (after a superficial look at the games) Black is in a very comfortable position. When he plays against a higher rated player he can choose the drawish line or force White to play a questionable gambit and when he is prepared he can kill the elo difference. Against lower rated player Black can choose 8...Bb7 and should be more comfortable because White has no real model games and if White is better is very, very questionable.
  
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BabySnake
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #139 - 02/15/12 at 16:24:41
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Tullius wrote on 02/04/12 at 19:13:13:
What has Taylor to offer in this line:

5.d4 b5 6.Bb3 Nxd4 7. Nxd4 exd4 8. c3

This can lead to dray by repetition and the varation is often seen as drawing line. Has Taylor analysed 8....Bb7 ?


Yes he does analyse 8....Bb7 - but says he does not recommend it for black. Analyses briefly Bisguier-Ciocaltea 1964.

He recommends taking the pawn, but then you have to be satisfied with a draw by repetition (9.Qd5) which is the best move according to Taylor since white will have insufficient compensation in case of 9.Nxc3 or 9.Qh5. He analyses games with both moves.
  
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #138 - 02/04/12 at 19:13:13
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What has Taylor to offer in this line:

5.d4 b5 6.Bb3 Nxd4 7. Nxd4 exd4 8. c3

This can lead to dray by repetition and the varation is often seen as drawing line. Has Taylor analysed 8....Bb7 ?
  
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #137 - 09/09/11 at 10:20:25
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I wonder - has anyone bought this book and played the MS (using the variations mentioned)? How did you get on?

Thanks - NGU
  
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #136 - 08/20/11 at 12:29:13
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I don't think 7.d3 Qf6 8.Nbd2 Nge7 9.Re1 Bd7 (probably best, Black can leave the bishop a bit longer with 9...Qh6 but White soon drives it away under more favourable circumstances, e.g. 10.Bb3 g5 11.Nf1 and Black gets driven back) 10.Nf1 Qg6 11.Kh1 is too bad for Black, at worst White may have a small edge.  Black can continue with 11...0-0-0, e.g. 12.Ne3 f5 13.Nh4 Qf6 14.Nhxf5 Nxf5 15.exf5 Qh4 16.c4 Qxf2 17.Rf1 Qh4.  11...f5 may also be playable, e.g. 12.Bg5 fxe4 (I'm not sure about the computer's suggestion 12...f4 as this closes lines on the kingside) 13.Rxe4 0-0-0 and Black unravels with ...Kb8 and ...Re8. 

I also find these lines rather more promising (at least in the sense of giving the sort of combative game that Black is typically after when embarking on this risky variation) than 7...Bd7, when after 8.Nc3 I think Black's kingside ideas are too slow.
  
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Arcticmonkey
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #135 - 08/20/11 at 06:02:50
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 08/16/11 at 12:35:43:
Arcticmonkey wrote on 08/11/11 at 14:11:55:
Regarding the mainlines, i agree. Black hasn't really demonstrated that he can equalise here, perhaps a slightly worse ending at best if White plays good moves.


This is the whole point. If the main line is rubbish we might as well forget about playing the Yandemirov variation. It's just too risky. Planning a piece sac with black as early as move 5 without white having done anything wrong - it really doesn't get more risky than that! 

What's to be done then? Go "Bishop's defence" as Taylor calls it: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0-0 Bd7 6.d4 Nf6 7.c3 g6 8.Re1 b5 9.Bb3 Bg7 with a complex position full of play where black is doing quite all right. It is also possible to get there by playing 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0-0 Nf6 6.c3 Bd7 7.d4 g6 (not mentioned by Taylor).


Hmm yes, the Yanderimov is risky, but i doubt weaker players will know what to do unless they've specifically studied it.

Even so, its probably only an edge, Black is not totally lost. But i guess my question was that if a move such as the simple 7.d3 gives white good winning chances, then thats another reason not to play it.
  
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #134 - 08/18/11 at 22:56:06
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Discussions earlier in the thread suggested that the "Bishop Defence" merely amounts to a modification of the Closed Lopez, with the bishop on g7 and rook on f8 rather than the rook on e8 and bishop on f8.  It's a legimitate way to play as Black, but not a good idea IMHO if Black wishes to avoid getting a Closed Lopez type of position.

Going back to 5...Bg4 6.h3 h5 7.d3, Grischuk played 7...Qf6 8.d3 Bxf3 (unfortunately 8...Nge7 9.hxg4! doesn't quite give Black enough for the piece here) 9.Qxf3 Qxf3 10.gxf3 with a roughly equal game (the bishop pair offsets the doubled pawns).  Haven't checked 8.Nbd2!? though which avoids the doubled pawns, though it isn't as critical as the main line.  I think it's an exaggeration to say that Black is lost in the main line of the Yandemirov variation, but White does have at least a couple of promising continuations that may yield a significant advantage.
  
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #133 - 08/16/11 at 12:35:43
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Arcticmonkey wrote on 08/11/11 at 14:11:55:
Regarding the mainlines, i agree. Black hasn't really demonstrated that he can equalise here, perhaps a slightly worse ending at best if White plays good moves.


This is the whole point. If the main line is rubbish we might as well forget about playing the Yandemirov variation. It's just too risky. Planning a piece sac with black as early as move 5 without white having done anything wrong - it really doesn't get more risky than that! 

What's to be done then? Go "Bishop's defence" as Taylor calls it: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0-0 Bd7 6.d4 Nf6 7.c3 g6 8.Re1 b5 9.Bb3 Bg7 with a complex position full of play where black is doing quite all right. It is also possible to get there by playing 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0-0 Nf6 6.c3 Bd7 7.d4 g6 (not mentioned by Taylor).
  
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #132 - 08/11/11 at 14:11:55
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 08/11/11 at 08:36:41:
Arcticmonkey wrote on 08/04/11 at 15:09:38:
I have a slight problem. Although i don't even think it's sound and hasn't really been played seriously ever, i was wondering about the Yanderimov Gambit in Taylor's book. Specifically the line:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0-0 Bg4 6.h3 h5 7.d3!?

Someone played this against me in blitz and even though i won, i was curious and checked it after the game. Isn't this just better for White!? I cant find it in Taylor's book either...

This line actually isn't very critical. 7. ... Qf6 is quite all right though sharp, but the easiest option for black is undoubtetly 7. ... Bd7(!) when black will be playing Nge7, f6, g5, Ng6 with a strong attacking position on the kings side.
The only real critical test of the Yandemirov is the main line where (unfortunately) black seems to be losing. I don't think I will be playing it with black; it's just too risky. 


Thats quite a confident assessment of the position. So you think that the inclusion of ...Bg4 - h3 favours black!? as i suppose there is some sort of a lever to attack, On the other hand though, the g5 square is weaker, although it shouldn't matter too much as your planning ...Nge7 and probably ...f6 though anyway.

As far as 7...Qf6, I think the best line is the simple 8.Nbd2 Nge7 9.Re1 Bd7!? (seems depressing to have to retreat) 10.Nf1 Qg6 11.Kh1 with an edge. White will follow up with Ne3, taking a bit of sting out of f5 and perhaps the computer suggestion of c4!? at some point, putting the pawns on light squares since it is semi-difficult to avoid exchanging the light squared bishops.

As for 7...Bd7, this just isn't the move i want to play against such a normal move as 7.d3. I also dont see how you will get a kingside attack after a normal sequence like 8.Nc3 Nge7 9.Be3 Ng6 10.Re1. White just seems to have an edge here, planning d4 at some point.

Regarding the mainlines, i agree. Black hasn't really demonstrated that he can equalise here, perhaps a slightly worse ending at best if White plays good moves.

  
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