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Poll Question: Among all lines in Spanish the Modern/Deffered Steinitz is:
bars   pie

passive but with less theory    
  14 (19.4%)
solid but not a play for win    
  13 (18.1%)
active (specify why)    
  5 (6.9%)
recommended (specify why)    
  5 (6.9%)
not recommneded (write why)    
  8 (11.1%)
cuts down a load of theory    
  15 (20.8%)
White has an edge (where)    
  12 (16.7%)




Total votes: 72
« Created by: rossia on: 02/16/11 at 12:23:55 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Slay the Spanish! (Read 93403 times)
SWJediknight
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #56 - 02/21/11 at 19:27:34
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 02/21/11 at 09:03:08:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0-0 Bg4 6.h3 h5 7.bc6:+!? bc6: 8.d4 is a serious alternative (maybe best) but black then has to go 8. ... Bf3:! 9.Qf3: ed4: 10.Rd1 Qf6 and is doing reasonably well. This is much better than Sokolov's 8. ... Qf6.   

Yeah, apologies, I tried to give that line but I missed out 9...exd4 10.Rd1!
  
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #55 - 02/21/11 at 16:12:43
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Welcome on chesspub, Articmonkey!

I would say you have nicely summarised what people can expect from this book. I'm definitely going to buy it but will be a critical reader, and will check the choices of variations and conclusions against other sources (ideally of course, this should not be necessary). It's good that he based a lot of the choices of variations on Keres, because you hardly can go wrong then (Keres was one of the greatest giants of all times on opening theory), but I will be careful when he doesn't follow Keres. I do seriously wonder what variations he will throw in to justify 4. ... bc6: in the exchange variation.
  
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Arcticmonkey
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #54 - 02/21/11 at 11:46:11
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So, someone said something about Taylor's Alekhine book being rubbish, which is interesting.
I just wanted to say that i think things could have been done a lot better and things omitted:
-Taylor gives whole game scores in his notes which is unecessary i find in most cases. It just takes up too much room.
-His explanations are sometimes irrelevant. I think in the Alekhine book he repeated his explanation (several times) of how White gets a 0.25 edge according to Fritz and Black has few winning chances. It wasn't a short explanation either.
-His theoretical coverage seems a little thin in places but fairly good for the most part. I think he's used all the good sources which some authors don't.

In Summary, i think someone was right when they pointed out that using full game scores cuts down on the analysis because of space, this is even worse when he uses full game scores in the annotations. So, that can easily be improved by cutting it off 1/3 of the way, a good rule which i discovered is that that no 'note' goes beyond move 20 using a stone-cold computer evaluation and some ideas at the end. Using an analysis format is not beyond everyman, I also think that 2 of the best books around (at least at the time) were 'fighting the anti-sicilians' and BUCO by Palliser. It is also ironic that both of these books were more than 30 pages shorter than 'Alekhine Alert', considering the in-depth invaluable information in these books.

Also, his explanations of stuff that seems kind of pointless could just be replaced by plans at the end of variation, i would like that a lot more. As the book ('Slay the Spanish') looks like its already done in game format, thats a little dissapointing but a really good thing is that he does provide alternatives to the mainlines which will make it harder for people to prepare.

So, this is my first comment on chesspub, don't cut me too deep if you disagree
  
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MNb
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #53 - 02/21/11 at 10:46:05
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 02/21/11 at 09:03:08:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0-0 Bg4 6.h3 h5 7.bc6:+!? bc6: 8.d4 Bf3:! 9.Qf3: ed4: 10.Rd1 Qf6 Qf6

A razor sharp line to slay the Spanish indeed. Then again, possibly you are justified by the author who incorporated 1.e4 c5 2.c3 in an attacking repertoire.
I suppose the Slav-Botvinnik is for strict positional players these days.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #52 - 02/21/11 at 09:03:08
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The verdict on the Yandemirov variation is no easy matter guys.

This is a razor-sharp line where black is sacking a piece so is taking a big, big risk. I wouldn't be surpised if someday a white comes with a significant theoretical improvement and the whole thing is being sent back to the drawing board. However that hasn't happened and by the looks of it black is doing quite allright: += max by best play of both sides, very much like most decent variations.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0-0 Bg4 6.h3 h5 7.bc6:+!? bc6: 8.d4 is a serious alternative (maybe best) but black then has to go 8. ... Bf3:! 9.Qf3: ed4: 10.Rd1 Qf6 and is doing reasonably well. This is much better than Sokolov's 8. ... Qf6.
  
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #51 - 02/19/11 at 08:50:50
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SWJediknight wrote on 02/18/11 at 20:48:10:
My conclusion was that 5.0-0 Bg4 6.h3 h5 7.d4 b5 8.Bb3 Nd4 9.hxg4 Nxb3 10.axb3 hxg4 11.Ng5 Qd7 is OK for Black- Black often wins the piece back anyway due to the trapped knight on g5, and some recent games in that line have confirmed that Black is doing alright.


Black gets the piece back but White maintains a healthy advantage in 2 or 3 ways. Kritz believes that the position is unclear and only the "old" line with c4 Rb8 etc gives an advantage for Black. My opinion is that Black has problems in more lines. You can always call these lines unclear but "unclear" just hides the truth from an inexperienced reader (or player). Deeper analysis reveals that White is just better. And his advantage is not a "slight" one.
  
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SWJediknight
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #50 - 02/18/11 at 20:48:10
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I don't know about the recent CBM article but I looked over those lines with Fritz quite recently and concluded that Yanderimov's line offers good practical chances but probably isn't sound enough at the highest levels. 

My conclusion was that 5.0-0 Bg4 6.h3 h5 7.d4 b5 8.Bb3 Nd4 9.hxg4 Nxb3 10.axb3 hxg4 11.Ng5 Qd7 is OK for Black- Black often wins the piece back anyway due to the trapped knight on g5, and some recent games in that line have confirmed that Black is doing alright.

I think the problem is 7.Bxc6+ bxc6 8.d4 as played recently by Shirov.  After 8...Qf6 White might be able to get away with 9.hxg4!?.  After 9...hxg4 10.dxe5! (10.Ng5 Qh6 gives Black good compensation for the piece) 10...dxe5 11.Bg5 Qe6 12.Nh2 g3 13.fxg3! (the alternative 13.Ng4 again allows Black good play) 13...Bc5+ 14.Kh1 f6 15.Bc1 Nh6 16.Bxh6 Rxh6 17.g4 Ke7 18.Rf3 Qxg4 19.Nd2 Rah8 20.Rh3 Rxh3 21.gxh3 Qxh3 22.Qe2.  White is a piece up for two pawns and has taken the sting out of the black attack.  Given that White really dices with death in this line, it seems that Black ought to have improvements somewhere, but I can't find them.   If Black doesn't want to risk this double-edged line then 8...Bxf3 9.Qxf3 Qf6 10.Qb3 Ne7 is playable, and gives Black some hacking chances, but I think White has at least a small advantage.

I maintain my reservations about what I saw in the extract- I am wary of the possibility that the coverage of the critical lines may end up rather thin.
  
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #49 - 02/18/11 at 18:25:02
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 02/18/11 at 16:23:26:
Sorry to hear this Markovich.

I think on the theoretical verdict you are too pesimistic.
In the Siesta there has been a NIC survey by AC van der Tak titled "Black can sleep quietly in the Siesta variation" and focusses on the main line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.c3 f5 6.ef5: Bf5: 7.0-0 Bd3 8.Re1 Be7 9.Bc2 Bc2: 10.Qc2: Nf6 11.d4 e4 12.Ng5 d5 13.f3 h6 14.Nh3 0-0 15.Nd2 ef3: 16.Nf3: Rf7 where it has clearly been demonstrated that white has nothing.
Also in Yandemirov's variation black is very much OK after the razor-sharp 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0-0 Bg4 6.h3 h5 7.d4 b5 8.Bb3 Nd4: 9.hg4: Nb3: (!) 10.ab3: hg4: 11.Ng5 Qd7, that's another NIC survey.
Also after 5.Bc6: bc6: 6.d4 f6 black is very much OK in particular if he uses Alekhine's setup Ng8-e7-g6 and Be7 and answers h4 by h5.

But if Mr Taylor is rubbish as a writer then that's another matter! It definitely doesn't look like it by looking at the excerpts which look (are) very reasonable. But then I don't have any other book of this guy. What do others think of Mr Taylor as a writer? 


In a recent CBM article GM Kritz doesn't have the same good opinion about the Yanderimov
  
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #48 - 02/18/11 at 17:38:13
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 02/18/11 at 16:23:26:
Sorry to hear this Markovich.
But if Mr Taylor is rubbish as a writer then that's another matter! It definitely doesn't look like it by looking at the excerpts which look (are) very reasonable. But then I don't have any other book of this guy. What do others think of Mr Taylor as a writer? 


Taylor is a very good writer in the sense that he "sells" his recommended lines very well - you will want to play the MS after reading this book.

I have his Alekhine book and while I would acknowledge it has some shortcomings, I think Markovich is being much too harsh on it. Perhaps we need a thread in the 1.e4... section to identify the problems with it, if it truly is a waste of money.

One concern I would have is Taylor's penchant for enthusiastically recommending obscure lines with sometimes minimal analysis. In the case of the MS book, I am thrilled to see that many people will soon begin answering my habitual 4.Bxc6 with bxc6. Of course, I haven't seen his analysis yet but somehow I don't expect to have my opinion of this move changed.
  
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #47 - 02/18/11 at 16:33:21
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Maybe you're right, but for the time being, I'm from Missouri.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #46 - 02/18/11 at 16:23:26
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Sorry to hear this Markovich.

I think on the theoretical verdict you are too pesimistic.
In the Siesta there has been a NIC survey by AC van der Tak titled "Black can sleep quietly in the Siesta variation" and focusses on the main line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.c3 f5 6.ef5: Bf5: 7.0-0 Bd3 8.Re1 Be7 9.Bc2 Bc2: 10.Qc2: Nf6 11.d4 e4 12.Ng5 d5 13.f3 h6 14.Nh3 0-0 15.Nd2 ef3: 16.Nf3: Rf7 where it has clearly been demonstrated that white has nothing.
Also in Yandemirov's variation black is very much OK after the razor-sharp 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0-0 Bg4 6.h3 h5 7.d4 b5 8.Bb3 Nd4: 9.hg4: Nb3: (!) 10.ab3: hg4: 11.Ng5 Qd7, that's another NIC survey.
Also after 5.Bc6: bc6: 6.d4 f6 black is very much OK in particular if he uses Alekhine's setup Ng8-e7-g6 and Be7 and answers h4 by h5.

But if Mr Taylor is rubbish as a writer then that's another matter! It definitely doesn't look like it by looking at the excerpts which look (are) very reasonable. But then I don't have any other book of this guy. What do others think of Mr Taylor as a writer?
  
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #45 - 02/18/11 at 14:13:28
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I voted for "White has an edge."  The sharp lines are not very sound and the solid lines offer too little counterplay, has been the standard judgment for a long time.  I merely repeat it with no particular knowledge of whether it's still correct.  But the theoretical burden of proof is with Black.  Also the 5.Bxc6+ line leaves Black with a slight disadvantage and no counterplay, if I'm not mistaken.

I salute his skill in chess, but since throwing away my money on his extremely irritating and time-wasting Alekhine book, my opinion of Taylor's merit as an author is very much diminished.  Before I thought that in spite of his faults his work had some minimal merit; now, I think it doesn't and that it actually can make a negative contribution to someone's understanding.  They will, indeed, serve ice cold lemonade in Hell on the day I buy another Tim Taylor book. 
  

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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #44 - 02/18/11 at 09:40:57
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Thanks for this guys. I went through the parts of the book that are available on the website. Being able to evaluate a book like this is a very good thing and much appreciated (thanks Everyman) because it gives a good idea what the contents of a book really is and the style of writing etc.

Must say it's all looking good. Tim Taylor puts the unforgettable giant Paul Keres (rightly) in the spotlight and it would appear that his selection of variations is similar to Keres'. His selection of variations is very interesting. The games and annotations look quite good. I consider the Modern Steintiz (MS) to be a very proper choice for a RL repertoire for black for the following reasons:

1.The variation starts at move 4, so you don't have to learn too many sidelines, and you will get "your thing" on the board most of the time (the only way for white to avoid this lot is the exchange variation, which is also covered in the book). Unlike, as Tim Taylor rightly says, if you play the marshall gambit - you might never get there because white will deviate, and you have to learn really lots of theory. So this lot is quite manageable for a club player.

2.The Modern Steinitz is theoretically sound (see the other link on this subject) and has been played by several top players and world champions.

3.Tim Taylor gives people a choice if they want to play aggresive attacking lines (Siesta, Yandemirov) or go for solid quiet lines like the Rubinstein. So within the MS compex itself, if you don't like a line you can go for another one without having to change your repertoire altogether.   

4.The MS is very much out of fashion (why?), so most whites will be unfamiliar with it and have little experience with the type of positions what constitutes a major practical advantage.
  
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #43 - 02/16/11 at 14:27:33
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in Germany "Home Improvement" was aired with the rather stupid title "Hör mal wer da hämmert" ("listen who uses a hammer there"). I chuckled a little at the reference.
  
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Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #42 - 02/16/11 at 12:58:53
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Some statistics:

1.TOP PRACTITIONERS SINCE 2005:

Mamedyarov, Jussupow, Milov, Malaniuk, Short, Winants, Yandemirov

2. SCORE OF WORLD CHAMPIONS AND ELITE PLAYERS (more than 10 games):

Alekhine: 12,5 out of 16 games or 78%  Cheesy
Keres: 31,5 out of 44 games or 72%  Smiley
Capablanca: 14 out of 20 games or 70%
Spassky: 7,5 out of 11 games or 68%
Bronstein: 9 out of 14 games or 64%
Portisch: 7 out of 12 games or 58%
Smyslov: 13 out of 23 games or 57%
Malaniuk: 27 out of 48 games or 56%
Ciocaltea: 28,5 out of 57 games or 50%
Huebner: 5 out of 12 games or 42%
Gligoric: 4 out of 10 games or 40%
Jussupow: 6 out of 19 games or 32%

Source: ChessBase Mega 2011
  
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