Latest Updates:
Poll
Poll Question: Among all lines in Spanish the Modern/Deffered Steinitz is:
bars   pie

passive but with less theory    
  14 (19.4%)
solid but not a play for win    
  13 (18.1%)
active (specify why)    
  5 (6.9%)
recommended (specify why)    
  5 (6.9%)
not recommneded (write why)    
  8 (11.1%)
cuts down a load of theory    
  15 (20.8%)
White has an edge (where)    
  12 (16.7%)




Total votes: 72
« Created by: rossia on: 02/16/11 at 12:23:55 »
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Slay the Spanish! (Read 91976 times)
BabySnake
Full Member
***
Offline


Opening repertoire construction
underway

Posts: 174
Joined: 10/21/10
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #146 - 02/21/12 at 08:54:41
Post Tools
Can you clarify what is meant by the "modern treatment of the Smyslov variation"?

I take it this is 9..Qd7 or 9..h6?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Vass
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1105
Joined: 06/22/11
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #145 - 02/21/12 at 08:28:23
Post Tools
PANFR wrote on 02/21/12 at 06:39:38:
Yes, the Petrosian is the system with 12...Bd7 which is dealt by Marin in his book. And yes, the modern treatment of the Smyslov looks quite interesting.

So to speak, black is OK in the variations where the second player doesn't force things opening the centre..  Wink
I always liked the Petrosian variation for black. And I don't understand why this variation is somehow underestimated.  Shocked
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
PANFR
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 251
Location: Greece
Joined: 10/31/11
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #144 - 02/21/12 at 06:39:38
Post Tools
Yes, the Petrosian is the system with 12...Bd7 which is dealt by Marin in his book. And yes, the modern treatment of the Smyslov looks quite interesting.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1427
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #143 - 02/20/12 at 20:48:38
Post Tools
PANFR wrote on 02/16/12 at 16:52:07:
The best way to get "Closed Lopez type of positions" is actually playing the Closed Lopez... Tongue
Black is IMO in a fine shape in the Nenashev/Graf variation, as well as in the Petrosian variation, and most probably in the Breyer as well. Not so sure about the Zaitsev, which is too sharp to be evaluated briefly.


As for the "Petrosian" variation, are you reffering to one of the 2 systems Mihail Marin analysed in his book "Spanish Repertoire for Black"? In my opinion, the Smyslov System is in fine shape also.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SWJediknight
God Member
*****
Online


Alert... opponent out
of book!

Posts: 900
Joined: 03/14/08
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #142 - 02/16/12 at 22:52:31
Post Tools
I recently drew against a higher-rated player with the 5.0-0 Bg4 6.h3 h5 line (like Arcticmonkey I doubt that Black is close to losing with best play, though it might be a rather strong += if White really knows what he/she is doing).  White played 7.d3 Qf6 8.Bxc6+ (in Svidler-Grischuk, 2008, Svidler played 8.c3 immediately here, but as Arcticmonkey discussed above 8.Nbd2 is probably more testing) 8...bxc6 9.c3 and I opted for the interesting endgame that results from the double exchange on f3.  The 7.d3 line is strongly reminiscent of White's optimal continuation against the 5...Bg4 6.h3 h5 line of the Exchange Ruy.

If I felt a need to give up on this line I would revert to using a different main defence to the Ruy- if I wanted to get a Closed Lopez type position I would just head straight for the Closed.

As for the 5.d4 line, I've caught a couple of players out with the Noah's Ark Trap line, and I agree with the 8...Bb7 being better than Taylor suggests.  White might be able to get enough compensation for a pawn, but that's all.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
PANFR
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 251
Location: Greece
Joined: 10/31/11
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #141 - 02/16/12 at 16:52:07
Post Tools
The best way to get "Closed Lopez type of positions" is actually playing the Closed Lopez... Tongue
Black is IMO in a fine shape in the Nenashev/Graf variation, as well as in the Petrosian variation, and most probably in the Breyer as well. Not so sure about the Zaitsev, which is too sharp to be evaluated briefly.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Tullius
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 71
Joined: 05/03/11
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #140 - 02/16/12 at 16:38:06
Post Tools
IMO 8...Bb7 is a serious alternative to play for win. Taylor dismisses to quickly 9.cxd4 Bxe4 because of 10.0-0 because of "a typical Open-Game e-Line attack". That maybe true but Black is a pawn up. It seems to me that this evaluation is superficially.

In the databases (i have Hugebase and BigDatabase 2011) only 5 games are know. The score is +3=1-0 in favour for White but an e-line- attack played no role in any game. In one game between lower rated players Black made an error in the 10th move and in the other games Black had at the end of the opening the better position or the position was at least unclear.

The "Chess Openings Encyclopdia 2010" (by Convekta) lists  the variation (after 8...Bb7)  as unclear (based on Velimirovic - Langeweg, 1988) or equal (Oll - Psakhis, 1987 - NCO sees here after 13.Qe2 an unclear position).

So i think (after a superficial look at the games) Black is in a very comfortable position. When he plays against a higher rated player he can choose the drawish line or force White to play a questionable gambit and when he is prepared he can kill the elo difference. Against lower rated player Black can choose 8...Bb7 and should be more comfortable because White has no real model games and if White is better is very, very questionable.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BabySnake
Full Member
***
Offline


Opening repertoire construction
underway

Posts: 174
Joined: 10/21/10
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #139 - 02/15/12 at 16:24:41
Post Tools
Tullius wrote on 02/04/12 at 19:13:13:
What has Taylor to offer in this line:

5.d4 b5 6.Bb3 Nxd4 7. Nxd4 exd4 8. c3

This can lead to dray by repetition and the varation is often seen as drawing line. Has Taylor analysed 8....Bb7 ?


Yes he does analyse 8....Bb7 - but says he does not recommend it for black. Analyses briefly Bisguier-Ciocaltea 1964.

He recommends taking the pawn, but then you have to be satisfied with a draw by repetition (9.Qd5) which is the best move according to Taylor since white will have insufficient compensation in case of 9.Nxc3 or 9.Qh5. He analyses games with both moves.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Tullius
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 71
Joined: 05/03/11
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #138 - 02/04/12 at 19:13:13
Post Tools
What has Taylor to offer in this line:

5.d4 b5 6.Bb3 Nxd4 7. Nxd4 exd4 8. c3

This can lead to dray by repetition and the varation is often seen as drawing line. Has Taylor analysed 8....Bb7 ?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
NeverGiveUp
Full Member
***
Offline


Never despair in a lost
position

Posts: 221
Joined: 11/18/09
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #137 - 09/09/11 at 10:20:25
Post Tools
I wonder - has anyone bought this book and played the MS (using the variations mentioned)? How did you get on?

Thanks - NGU
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SWJediknight
God Member
*****
Online


Alert... opponent out
of book!

Posts: 900
Joined: 03/14/08
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #136 - 08/20/11 at 12:29:13
Post Tools
I don't think 7.d3 Qf6 8.Nbd2 Nge7 9.Re1 Bd7 (probably best, Black can leave the bishop a bit longer with 9...Qh6 but White soon drives it away under more favourable circumstances, e.g. 10.Bb3 g5 11.Nf1 and Black gets driven back) 10.Nf1 Qg6 11.Kh1 is too bad for Black, at worst White may have a small edge.  Black can continue with 11...0-0-0, e.g. 12.Ne3 f5 13.Nh4 Qf6 14.Nhxf5 Nxf5 15.exf5 Qh4 16.c4 Qxf2 17.Rf1 Qh4.  11...f5 may also be playable, e.g. 12.Bg5 fxe4 (I'm not sure about the computer's suggestion 12...f4 as this closes lines on the kingside) 13.Rxe4 0-0-0 and Black unravels with ...Kb8 and ...Re8. 

I also find these lines rather more promising (at least in the sense of giving the sort of combative game that Black is typically after when embarking on this risky variation) than 7...Bd7, when after 8.Nc3 I think Black's kingside ideas are too slow.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Arcticmonkey
Full Member
***
Offline


Russell Peters ftw

Posts: 118
Joined: 02/21/11
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #135 - 08/20/11 at 06:02:50
Post Tools
NeverGiveUp wrote on 08/16/11 at 12:35:43:
Arcticmonkey wrote on 08/11/11 at 14:11:55:
Regarding the mainlines, i agree. Black hasn't really demonstrated that he can equalise here, perhaps a slightly worse ending at best if White plays good moves.


This is the whole point. If the main line is rubbish we might as well forget about playing the Yandemirov variation. It's just too risky. Planning a piece sac with black as early as move 5 without white having done anything wrong - it really doesn't get more risky than that! 

What's to be done then? Go "Bishop's defence" as Taylor calls it: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0-0 Bd7 6.d4 Nf6 7.c3 g6 8.Re1 b5 9.Bb3 Bg7 with a complex position full of play where black is doing quite all right. It is also possible to get there by playing 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0-0 Nf6 6.c3 Bd7 7.d4 g6 (not mentioned by Taylor).


Hmm yes, the Yanderimov is risky, but i doubt weaker players will know what to do unless they've specifically studied it.

Even so, its probably only an edge, Black is not totally lost. But i guess my question was that if a move such as the simple 7.d3 gives white good winning chances, then thats another reason not to play it.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SWJediknight
God Member
*****
Online


Alert... opponent out
of book!

Posts: 900
Joined: 03/14/08
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #134 - 08/18/11 at 22:56:06
Post Tools
Discussions earlier in the thread suggested that the "Bishop Defence" merely amounts to a modification of the Closed Lopez, with the bishop on g7 and rook on f8 rather than the rook on e8 and bishop on f8.  It's a legimitate way to play as Black, but not a good idea IMHO if Black wishes to avoid getting a Closed Lopez type of position.

Going back to 5...Bg4 6.h3 h5 7.d3, Grischuk played 7...Qf6 8.d3 Bxf3 (unfortunately 8...Nge7 9.hxg4! doesn't quite give Black enough for the piece here) 9.Qxf3 Qxf3 10.gxf3 with a roughly equal game (the bishop pair offsets the doubled pawns).  Haven't checked 8.Nbd2!? though which avoids the doubled pawns, though it isn't as critical as the main line.  I think it's an exaggeration to say that Black is lost in the main line of the Yandemirov variation, but White does have at least a couple of promising continuations that may yield a significant advantage.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
NeverGiveUp
Full Member
***
Offline


Never despair in a lost
position

Posts: 221
Joined: 11/18/09
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #133 - 08/16/11 at 12:35:43
Post Tools
Arcticmonkey wrote on 08/11/11 at 14:11:55:
Regarding the mainlines, i agree. Black hasn't really demonstrated that he can equalise here, perhaps a slightly worse ending at best if White plays good moves.


This is the whole point. If the main line is rubbish we might as well forget about playing the Yandemirov variation. It's just too risky. Planning a piece sac with black as early as move 5 without white having done anything wrong - it really doesn't get more risky than that! 

What's to be done then? Go "Bishop's defence" as Taylor calls it: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0-0 Bd7 6.d4 Nf6 7.c3 g6 8.Re1 b5 9.Bb3 Bg7 with a complex position full of play where black is doing quite all right. It is also possible to get there by playing 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0-0 Nf6 6.c3 Bd7 7.d4 g6 (not mentioned by Taylor).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Arcticmonkey
Full Member
***
Offline


Russell Peters ftw

Posts: 118
Joined: 02/21/11
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #132 - 08/11/11 at 14:11:55
Post Tools
NeverGiveUp wrote on 08/11/11 at 08:36:41:
Arcticmonkey wrote on 08/04/11 at 15:09:38:
I have a slight problem. Although i don't even think it's sound and hasn't really been played seriously ever, i was wondering about the Yanderimov Gambit in Taylor's book. Specifically the line:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0-0 Bg4 6.h3 h5 7.d3!?

Someone played this against me in blitz and even though i won, i was curious and checked it after the game. Isn't this just better for White!? I cant find it in Taylor's book either...

This line actually isn't very critical. 7. ... Qf6 is quite all right though sharp, but the easiest option for black is undoubtetly 7. ... Bd7(!) when black will be playing Nge7, f6, g5, Ng6 with a strong attacking position on the kings side.
The only real critical test of the Yandemirov is the main line where (unfortunately) black seems to be losing. I don't think I will be playing it with black; it's just too risky. 


Thats quite a confident assessment of the position. So you think that the inclusion of ...Bg4 - h3 favours black!? as i suppose there is some sort of a lever to attack, On the other hand though, the g5 square is weaker, although it shouldn't matter too much as your planning ...Nge7 and probably ...f6 though anyway.

As far as 7...Qf6, I think the best line is the simple 8.Nbd2 Nge7 9.Re1 Bd7!? (seems depressing to have to retreat) 10.Nf1 Qg6 11.Kh1 with an edge. White will follow up with Ne3, taking a bit of sting out of f5 and perhaps the computer suggestion of c4!? at some point, putting the pawns on light squares since it is semi-difficult to avoid exchanging the light squared bishops.

As for 7...Bd7, this just isn't the move i want to play against such a normal move as 7.d3. I also dont see how you will get a kingside attack after a normal sequence like 8.Nc3 Nge7 9.Be3 Ng6 10.Re1. White just seems to have an edge here, planning d4 at some point.

Regarding the mainlines, i agree. Black hasn't really demonstrated that he can equalise here, perhaps a slightly worse ending at best if White plays good moves.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
NeverGiveUp
Full Member
***
Offline


Never despair in a lost
position

Posts: 221
Joined: 11/18/09
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #131 - 08/11/11 at 08:36:41
Post Tools
Arcticmonkey wrote on 08/04/11 at 15:09:38:
I have a slight problem. Although i don't even think it's sound and hasn't really been played seriously ever, i was wondering about the Yanderimov Gambit in Taylor's book. Specifically the line:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0-0 Bg4 6.h3 h5 7.d3!?

Someone played this against me in blitz and even though i won, i was curious and checked it after the game. Isn't this just better for White!? I cant find it in Taylor's book either...

This line actually isn't very critical. 7. ... Qf6 is quite all right though sharp, but the easiest option for black is undoubtetly 7. ... Bd7(!) when black will be playing Nge7, f6, g5, Ng6 with a strong attacking position on the kings side.
The only real critical test of the Yandemirov is the main line where (unfortunately) black seems to be losing. I don't think I will be playing it with black; it's just too risky.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Arcticmonkey
Full Member
***
Offline


Russell Peters ftw

Posts: 118
Joined: 02/21/11
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #130 - 08/04/11 at 15:09:38
Post Tools
I have a slight problem. Although i don't even think it's sound and hasn't really been played seriously ever, i was wondering about the Yanderimov Gambit in Taylor's book. Specifically the line:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0-0 Bg4 6.h3 h5 7.d3!?

Someone played this against me in blitz and even though i won, i was curious and checked it after the game. Isn't this just better for White!? I cant find it in Taylor's book either...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Arcticmonkey
Full Member
***
Offline


Russell Peters ftw

Posts: 118
Joined: 02/21/11
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #129 - 05/29/11 at 14:38:02
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 05/25/11 at 14:14:05:
8. Nbd2 has been given in ECO as leading to a slight advantage for White, e.g. 8...b5 9. Bc2 Bg7 10. Nb3 O-O 11. de de 12. Nc5 Bg4 13. h3 Qe7 (Kaplan-Keres, San Antonio 1972) 14. hg Qxc5 15. g5 += Keres.

Edit:  I see that Taylor does mention this, recommending 11...Nxe5; "after 12. Nxe5 de 13. Nc5 Bc6 14. Be3 Nd7 White has absolutely nothing."  Looks a bit optimistic to me.


So yea perhaps 14...Qe7 is a little better, at least its an alternative
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jonathan Tait
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 497
Location: Nottingham
Joined: 07/11/06
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #128 - 05/29/11 at 14:29:45
Post Tools
BabySnake wrote on 05/29/11 at 13:42:26:
I have to admit I can't find where Taylor mentions this, can you point me to a page number?


top of page 90
the line starts as note 'b' on the previous page
  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
BabySnake
Full Member
***
Offline


Opening repertoire construction
underway

Posts: 174
Joined: 10/21/10
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #127 - 05/29/11 at 13:42:26
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 05/25/11 at 14:14:05:
8. Nbd2 has been given in ECO as leading to a slight advantage for White, e.g. 8...b5 9. Bc2 Bg7 10. Nb3 O-O 11. de de 12. Nc5 Bg4 13. h3 Qe7 (Kaplan-Keres, San Antonio 1972) 14. hg Qxc5 15. g5 += Keres.

Edit:  I see that Taylor does mention this, recommending 11...Nxe5; "after 12. Nxe5 de 13. Nc5 Bc6 14. Be3 Nd7 White has absolutely nothing."  Looks a bit optimistic to me.


I have to admit I can't find where Taylor mentions this, can you point me to a page number?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Pantu
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 319
Joined: 12/30/06
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #126 - 05/26/11 at 17:12:30
Post Tools
I think if you are playing the Lopez as black, you should probably be studying quite a few of these positions Smiley

Anyway, I think it's more comparing the Bf8 vs g6 and Bg7.  Bf8 doesn't weaken the kingside and the bishop keeps some hope of activity elsewhere - the Bg7 can be rather passive.

In comparing the Breyer position I'll say I think that having Bb7 and Nbd7 vs Bd7 and Nc6 favours black when the bishop is on g7.  Everything is better placed for the ...d5 break which makes it harder for white to maintain the tension.

Also, white can try to take advantage of black's ambitious move order.  Lines I've looked at that I think are possible promising for white are:

5 0-0 Bd7 6 d4 Nf6 7 c3 g6 8 Re1 b5 9 Bb3 Bg7 10 Bg5!? which Taylor is dismissive of (via a different move order).  However in my database of TWIC games I see white going +9 =3 -1 here, with Navara, So, Alekseev and others bashing the likes of Malaniuk, Mamedyarov and Sadvakasov.

5 0-0 Bd7 6 d4 Nf6 7 c3 g6 8 Re1 b5 9 Bc2!? also looks promising. 9...Bg7 10 Nbd2 0-0 11 h3 Nh5 is Taylor's only line, but 12 Nf1 h6 13 Ne3 transposes to Kobalia-Naumkin, Moscow 2009 when 13...Nf4?! 14 Nd5 seems good for white already.  I don't think black can get away with kingside activity while the tension remains in the centre.

Anyway, I've decided that I prefer white in this variation although it's playable for black, and that Taylor's book raises more questions for me than it solves.  I doubt I'll play this in serious games.

NeverGiveUp wrote on 05/26/11 at 10:43:21:
NeverGiveUp wrote on 05/26/11 at 09:45:05:
Along these lines I have been playing 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.d3 g6 6.c3 Bg7 7.0-0 0-0 8.Nbd2 b5 9.Bc2 Bb7 for a long time, where you get a classical main line RL type position for black with the bishop already on g7 so with a few extra tempi for black, in particular if white goes d4 afterwards which he usually does.

Sorry guys, his line should read 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.d3 d6 6.c3 g6 7.0-0 Bg7 8.Nbd2 0-0 9.Re1 b5 10.Bc2 Bb7


Marin used to play this way as black with great success, but in A Spanish Repertoire for Black he is quite pessimistic for black after losing badly (he admits this is subjective, and gives the game with light notes).  It's more accurate to say it is a tempo down for white on the variation we are discussing i.e. 4 Ba4 d6 5 0-0 Bd7 6 d4 Nf6 7 c3 will eventually transpose, except with d4 instead of d3 for white.

Even assuming he is being too pessimistic here, I'm not sure I'd want to give white an extra tempo... Undecided
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
NeverGiveUp
Full Member
***
Offline


Never despair in a lost
position

Posts: 221
Joined: 11/18/09
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #125 - 05/26/11 at 10:43:21
Post Tools
NeverGiveUp wrote on 05/26/11 at 09:45:05:
Along these lines I have been playing 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.d3 g6 6.c3 Bg7 7.0-0 0-0 8.Nbd2 b5 9.Bc2 Bb7 for a long time, where you get a classical main line RL type position for black with the bishop already on g7 so with a few extra tempi for black, in particular if white goes d4 afterwards which he usually does.

Sorry guys, his line should read 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.d3 d6 6.c3 g6 7.0-0 Bg7 8.Nbd2 0-0 9.Re1 b5 10.Bc2 Bb7
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
NeverGiveUp
Full Member
***
Offline


Never despair in a lost
position

Posts: 221
Joined: 11/18/09
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #124 - 05/26/11 at 09:45:05
Post Tools
Pantu wrote on 05/25/11 at 18:28:00:
In the meantime when looking at one of the positions my memory started prodding me.  This is what it saw:

1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bb5 a6 4 Ba4 d6 5 0-0 Bd7 6 c3 Nf6 7 Re1 g6 8 d4 b5 9 Bb3 Bg7 10 Nbd2 0-0 11 Nf1 h6[1]12 h3 Re8 13 Ng3

and

1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bb5 a6 4 Ba4 Nf6 5 0-0 Be7 6 Re1 b5 7 Bb3 d6 8 c3 0-0 9 h3 h6 10 d4 Re8 11 Nbd2 Bf8 12 Nf1 Bd7 13 Ng3 (the main line of the Smyslov Variation).

So what do we see? Black has played g7-g6 and Bf8-g7 in the Modern Steinitz line and Bf8-e7 and Be7-f8 in the Smyslov Variation.  Otherwise it's the same.  So it would be fruitful to look at this and decide in which location the bishop is best.  Marin covered this variation in CBM 129.

If the conclusion is at least that they are roughly equivalent, 5 Bxc6+ isn't a big deal and white's deviations don't give anything then black does get an easy Closed Ruy Lopez type position.

A further note is that in the MS if black refrains from g6 and plays Be7, we can transpose directly into the Smyslov if after ...b5 white plays Bb3, but Bc2 is stronger as black's normal plan involves 13...Na5 in the above Tabiya.


Thanks for this: it is a very interesting parallel between two variations which is not obvious at all!
It implies that players who want to play this line would be well adviced to study Smyslov's variation as well, or at least the parts of it which are similar.

So is the bishop better on e7 or g7? Keres in his annotated games says it doesn't make much difference. However in the Breyer, which I played ages ago (bishop on e7), black at some stage goes Re8, Bf8, g6, Bg7, so spends two extra moves getting his bishop of g7 compared to the MS variation, and playing this to me is admitting the bishop is better on g7! I don't really know the Smyslov variation but I suppose there black could go g6 and Bg7 as well and the same argument applies.

Along these lines I have been playing 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.d3 g6 6.c3 Bg7 7.0-0 0-0 8.Nbd2 b5 9.Bc2 Bb7 for a long time, where you get a classical main line RL type position for black with the bishop already on g7 so with a few extra tempi for black, in particular if white goes d4 afterwards which he usually does.

Of course if you play the Smyslov regularly most of the time -if not always- you will not get there because white will deviate. So the MS may be a better way to get there, maybe?
   
So is it all plain sailing? Yesterday I looked at the line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0-0(!) Bd7 6.d4 Nf6 7.Bc6:!? Bc6: 8.Re1 ed4: 9.Nd4: Bd7 10.Nc3. Again Taylor may be slightly optimistic here, ECO gives this as +=. Taylor makes the point that compared to the regular Steinitz, black can go Qc8 followed by b5 and Qb7, because the pawn is on a6. But I wonder if white cannot just prevent this by going a4 himself? [maybe black can go b6 and Qb7 then?] += is probably the right assessment since white has more space. Black does have the bishop's pair and a solid position though so maybe can hold on. This variation is probably a better choice for white rather than allowing the b5 line. What do you guys think?   

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10551
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #123 - 05/25/11 at 20:13:47
Post Tools
Some of you guys might be interested in this:

http://www.chesscafe.com/text/skittles405.pdf
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Pantu
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 319
Joined: 12/30/06
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #122 - 05/25/11 at 18:44:54
Post Tools
Pantu wrote on 05/25/11 at 18:28:00:
[1] Taylor is actually dismissive of 11 Nf1, saying 11...exd4 12 cxd4 Bg4 and "it is hard to see how white can avoid a shattered kingside" with nothing else.  I'm curious as to how the shattered kingside will compete with the centre and the bishop pair after something like 13 Bg5 Bxf3 14 gxf3 h6 15 Be3, it's certainly not totally clear that everything is OK for black.


Had another look at this, and realised that white can't keep the two bishops without allowing counterplay after 15...Na5 e.g.  16 Bc2 Nc4 17 Bc1 c5.  So perhaps it's not that bad, but it's still not too clear.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Pantu
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 319
Joined: 12/30/06
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #121 - 05/25/11 at 18:28:00
Post Tools
I've been tempted by the Modern Steinitz for a while, as an 'easy' way to get Closed Lopez type positions.  I've also been looking at play 1 e4 e5 as black for a while without ever finding anything satisfactory.  I wasn't too hopeful about Taylor's effort, and I have had the chance to look at it (I haven't bought it).

I'd briefly looked at the theory before and wasn't interested in 5 0-0 Bg4 as it seemed borderline unsound and I wanted something I didn't need to memorize.  So his 5 0-0 Bd7 6 d4 Nf6 7 c3 g6 looked interesting, especially as when I was a junior my pet line in against the Ruy Lopez was 3...a6 4 Ba4 b5 5 Bb3 g6?! later replaced by 5...Nf6 6 0-0 g6?!.  Eventually I worked out the refutations of these before anyone played it against me...so I looked at this variation first.

First brief look through seemed to suggest Taylor was awfully keen on suggesting that white's best move was dxe5 at several points, when various "normal" Closed Ruy Lopez moves and strategies for white were ignored.  Not sure if this is just his promotion for black or that he just hasn't played this much for either colour.  So it didn't like I would get much from the book apart from inspiration.

In the meantime when looking at one of the positions my memory started prodding me.  This is what it saw:

1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bb5 a6 4 Ba4 d6 5 0-0 Bd7 6 c3 Nf6 7 Re1 g6 8 d4 b5 9 Bb3 Bg7 10 Nbd2 0-0 11 Nf1 h6[1]12 h3 Re8 13 Ng3

and

1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bb5 a6 4 Ba4 Nf6 5 0-0 Be7 6 Re1 b5 7 Bb3 d6 8 c3 0-0 9 h3 h6 10 d4 Re8 11 Nbd2 Bf8 12 Nf1 Bd7 13 Ng3 (the main line of the Smyslov Variation).

So what do we see? Black has played g7-g6 and Bf8-g7 in the Modern Steinitz line and Bf8-e7 and Be7-f8 in the Smyslov Variation.  Otherwise it's the same.  So it would be fruitful to look at this and decide in which location the bishop is best.  Marin covered this variation in CBM 129.

If the conclusion is at least that they are roughly equivalent, 5 Bxc6+ isn't a big deal and white's deviations don't give anything then black does get an easy Closed Ruy Lopez type position.

A further note is that in the MS if black refrains from g6 and plays Be7, we can transpose directly into the Smyslov if after ...b5 white plays Bb3, but Bc2 is stronger as black's normal plan involves 13...Na5 in the above Tabiya.

[1] Taylor is actually dismissive of 11 Nf1, saying 11...exd4 12 cxd4 Bg4 and "it is hard to see how white can avoid a shattered kingside" with nothing else.  I'm curious as to how the shattered kingside will compete with the centre and the bishop pair after something like 13 Bg5 Bxf3 14 gxf3 h6 15 Be3, it's certainly not totally clear that everything is OK for black.

His main game is 11 h3 Re8 when 12 Nf1 exd4! wins a pawn unless white enters a drawing line with 13 Ng5, which does look convincing.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
NeverGiveUp
Full Member
***
Offline


Never despair in a lost
position

Posts: 221
Joined: 11/18/09
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #120 - 05/25/11 at 15:55:41
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 05/25/11 at 14:14:05:
8. Nbd2 has been given in ECO as leading to a slight advantage for White, e.g. 8...b5 9. Bc2 Bg7 10. Nb3 O-O 11. de de 12. Nc5 Bg4 13. h3 Qe7 (Kaplan-Keres, San Antonio 1972) 14. hg Qxc5 15. g5 += Keres.

Edit:  I see that Taylor does mention this, recommending 11...Nxe5; "after 12. Nxe5 de 13. Nc5 Bc6 14. Be3 Nd7 White has absolutely nothing."  Looks a bit optimistic to me.


I can clearly see where he's coming from though: The Bc6 is very well placed and the Nc5 is going to be exchanged.
This line certainly looks very doable for black.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4668
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #119 - 05/25/11 at 14:14:05
Post Tools
8. Nbd2 has been given in ECO as leading to a slight advantage for White, e.g. 8...b5 9. Bc2 Bg7 10. Nb3 O-O 11. de de 12. Nc5 Bg4 13. h3 Qe7 (Kaplan-Keres, San Antonio 1972) 14. hg Qxc5 15. g5 += Keres.

Edit:  I see that Taylor does mention this, recommending 11...Nxe5; "after 12. Nxe5 de 13. Nc5 Bc6 14. Be3 Nd7 White has absolutely nothing."  Looks a bit optimistic to me.
« Last Edit: 05/25/11 at 15:38:30 by kylemeister »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BabySnake
Full Member
***
Offline


Opening repertoire construction
underway

Posts: 174
Joined: 10/21/10
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #118 - 05/25/11 at 10:03:20
Post Tools
I've been analysing this a little bit myself. Gives a slight advantage to white IMO. An interesting try for white is the following, not given by Taylor, Jansa or Sokolov:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0-0 Bd7 6.d4 Nf6 7.c3 g6 8.Nbd2!? b5 9.Bc2 Bg7 10. dxe5 Nxe5 11. Nxe5 dxe5 12. Nb3!? 0-0 13. Be3

The idea is to save a tempo by not playing 8. Re1 as advocated by most. Withdraw the white squared bishop to c2 to leave the b3 square for the knight. Then aim for the weak spot c5 with knight and black squared bishop.

PS. I very much like Taylor's book. It has a lot of really good material and I like his writing style. Great explanations of ideas and plans and the historical perspective (Keres etc) is a hit for me. But as previously mentioned he seems to miss some critical lines.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
NeverGiveUp
Full Member
***
Offline


Never despair in a lost
position

Posts: 221
Joined: 11/18/09
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #117 - 05/25/11 at 08:12:38
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 05/23/11 at 21:08:07:
Speaking of that last line, one of the things Taylor apparently ignored is 11. b4.  That was considered a problem for Black by Timman when he annotated Motylev-Timman 2005 in NIC magazine (the game also appeared in an article by IM Tibor Karolyi in the Yearbook and was cited by MCO).


If the d5 line would be a serious problem for black in the Rubinstein (I am investigating) then black has a very serious alternative in 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0-0(!) Bd7 6.d4 Nf6 7.c3 g6 8.Re1 b5 9.Bb3 Bg7 what is Taylor's recommendation against 5.0-0. This line has been played by Keres himself several times and is very solid. What do you guys think - is this line equalising for black? If not, then why not? It may well be critical for the verdict of the whole MS.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
NeverGiveUp
Full Member
***
Offline


Never despair in a lost
position

Posts: 221
Joined: 11/18/09
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #116 - 05/24/11 at 07:45:32
Post Tools
A PS here: I still got the first edition of ECO "C" (I think from 1974). Although it's obviously very old now, this is one of the best books on the Modern Steinitz ever written!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
NeverGiveUp
Full Member
***
Offline


Never despair in a lost
position

Posts: 221
Joined: 11/18/09
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #115 - 05/24/11 at 07:42:17
Post Tools
I'm afraid you guys are right - I use Taylor's book in combination with other references (in particular ECO). As stand-alone it would probably be insufficient.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fling
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1591
Joined: 01/21/11
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #114 - 05/24/11 at 05:10:30
Post Tools
It seems like in Taylor's books, he presents interesting ideas, but he leaves out a lot of the critical variations.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4668
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #113 - 05/23/11 at 21:08:07
Post Tools
Speaking of that last line, one of the things Taylor apparently ignored is 11. b4.  That was considered a problem for Black by Timman when he annotated Motylev-Timman 2005 in NIC magazine (the game also appeared in an article by IM Tibor Karolyi in the Yearbook and was cited by MCO).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1427
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #112 - 05/23/11 at 20:51:19
Post Tools
and against the exchange?  Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
NeverGiveUp
Full Member
***
Offline


Never despair in a lost
position

Posts: 221
Joined: 11/18/09
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #111 - 05/23/11 at 10:25:24
Post Tools
In particular over last weekend, but also before, I have been working hard to get a black repertoire against the Modern Steinitz (MS) in place using Taylor's book and other references I have. I think I got there now and have a repertoire for next season that is rock-solid!

A short summary for you guys.
After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6

-Against 5.Bc6:+ bc6: 6.d4:
Go 6. ... ed4(!) as recommended by Taylor And now 7.Qd4: c5 8.Qd3 Ne7 9.0-0 Rb8 followed by Be7-f6 =, or 7.Nd4: c5 8.Ne2 Nf6 9.Nbc3 Bb7 10.Ng3 g6 =.

-Against 5.c3:
Go 5. ... f5!? Siesta. The pawn sac 6.ef5: Bf5: 7.d4!? e4 8.Ng5 d5 7.f3 e3! is very doable for black (=), and the main line 7.0-0 Bd3 8.Re1 Be7 9.Bc2 Bc2: 10.Qc2: Nf6 11.d4 e4 12.Ng5 d5 13.f3 h6 14.Nh3 0-0 15.Nd2 ef3: 16.Nf3: Rf7! promises white nothing (=). White's results in this latter line have been 48%!

-Against 5.0-0 (!)
White's best line.
I recommend the unusual 5. ... Nge7!? with the point 6.d4 ed4:(!) 7.Nd4: b5 8.Nc6: Nc6: 9.Bb3 Na5 =. The pawn sac 7.c3!? is interesting but probably insufficient after 7. ... dc3: 8.Nc3: Bd7. So white's best bet may be transposing to the Rubinstein varation with 6.c3 Bd7 7.d4 Ng6 and this is very doable for black after 8.Nbd2 Be7 9.Re1 0-0 10.Nf1 Qe8! (Larsen) or 8.d5 Nb8 9.c4 Be7 (b5!? Sokolov) 10.Nc3 h6 11.Bd7: Nd7: 12.Be3 Bg5. The verdict (me and Taylor) here is again =.

I am very positive about Taylor's book. Definitely recommended.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
NeverGiveUp
Full Member
***
Offline


Never despair in a lost
position

Posts: 221
Joined: 11/18/09
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #110 - 05/20/11 at 10:10:18
Post Tools
Apparently the King's Indian didn't work for Larsen. Some openings work for some people, and some openings do not. I never got any results with the French, both with black and with white, so I am staying away from it. Why I don't get results? I don't know. The French is of course a perfectly respectable opening. The essential thing is to find out what works for you.

To get back to the thread, I haven't had much experience with the Modern Steinitz yet, but the lines are very much in line with other lines I play, so I expect them to suit me well. The MS certainly appeals to me a great deal for the following reasons:
1.You're throwing your own line on the board as early as move 4.
2.Against white's main continuations, black has several options, so there is scope to vary within the system.      
3.Theoretically black is doing quite well.
4.The MS is totally out of fashion so most whites will not have faced it frequently (maybe might not have faced it at all) and may not know what to do against it - they might even have forgotten the theory!
5.I'm a big fan of Keres. He was great.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4668
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #109 - 05/19/11 at 18:31:23
Post Tools
Indeed I recall some words like this from Larsen:  "When I toss the Modern Benoni into the basket marked 'incorrect,' Gligoric will probably agree, but he will not understand what his beloved King's Indian is doing there, and my 'feeling' will not convince him."  Larsen played the KID quite a few times after writing that, however.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stefan Buecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1386
Location: Germany
Joined: 02/11/09
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #108 - 05/19/11 at 18:15:05
Post Tools
GMTonyKosten wrote on 05/19/11 at 14:26:55:
NeverGiveUp wrote on 05/19/11 at 12:55:57:
Larsen said he doesn't like to play a line he knows has been refuted.

I thought what he actually said was that he didn't like to play a line he knew was refuted more than once a year, or something of that ilk. Obviously that doesn't have quite the same sense! Roll Eyes

Larsen said he never played a dubious line if he thought the opponent might be able to refute it over the board. Repeating sick ideas doesn't sound Larsen-ish. Yes, he invited Tal to play Nxf7 in the Alekhine, but it took decades until a refutation was worked out. Larsen did sometimes play the King's Indian, although he didn't regard it as fully correct. His explanation was that he played the KI only when he felt out of form. During a KI game he felt "in danger" and instinctively played with utter care.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
GMTonyKosten
YaBB Administrator
*****
Offline


Mr Dynamic?

Posts: 3108
Location: Clermont-Ferrand
Joined: 12/19/02
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #107 - 05/19/11 at 14:26:55
Post Tools
NeverGiveUp wrote on 05/19/11 at 12:55:57:
Larsen said he doesn't like to play a line he knows has been refuted.

I thought what he actually said was that he didn't like to play a line he knew was refuted more than once a year, or something of that ilk. Obviously that doesn't have quite the same sense! Roll Eyes
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
NeverGiveUp
Full Member
***
Offline


Never despair in a lost
position

Posts: 221
Joined: 11/18/09
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #106 - 05/19/11 at 12:55:57
Post Tools
SWJediknight wrote on 05/17/11 at 16:01:01:
Aye, it's all about tolerance for risk.  In my experience most club players don't have a lot of theoretical knowledge and you can generally get away with lines like this


Spot on - this is a dilemma I'm facing as well. I've played the riga varaition of the ruy lopez (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Ne4: 6.d4 ed4:) loads of times but it has now been busted - but the refutation is so incredibly complicated I might never get it? Still Larsen said he doesn't like to play a line he knows has been refuted. You might just come across this one opponent who goes all the way right into the refutation ... and even club players can have a (very) high degree of opening knowledge.

SWJediknight wrote on 05/17/11 at 16:01:01:
I didn't know about the NIC review on the Siesta, thanks for that.


The Siesta is now one of black's best lines in the MS, theoretically and maybe pracically as well.

SWJediknight wrote on 05/17/11 at 16:01:01:
The 5.0-0 Nge7 looks interesting- does Taylor actually address this?


He does and he doesn't: Nge7 after 0-0 is covered in a chapter ("the knight defence"), but he doesn't mention Nge7 on move 5. Taylor just mentions the standard reply 5. ... Bd7 which has the deficit though that after 6.d4! ed4: white goes 7.Bc6:! and black is worse. So Taylor recommends playing 6. ... Nf6! after 6.d4, but black can't play the Rubinstein any more. So if you like the Rubinstein (I do!) then 5. ... Nge7 might be a way to get into it.

I am currrently studying the Rubinstein and it's an amazingly complex variation, and very tactical. If black knows what he's doing then it is very difficult for white to achieve anything, and white may easily get into trouble. Even a giant like Fisher was struggling against the Rubinstein. Since the variations are so unusual and most whites may never had a game with it, there is a big potential for scoring points with black here.
I don't agree with Taylor that the Rubinstein is no good if white plays 5.c3 and refrains from castling.      
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SWJediknight
God Member
*****
Online


Alert... opponent out
of book!

Posts: 900
Joined: 03/14/08
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #105 - 05/17/11 at 16:01:01
Post Tools
Aye, it's all about tolerance for risk.  In my experience most club players don't have a lot of theoretical knowledge and you can generally get away with lines like this,, e.g. I've played the 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 line about 50 times and have never faced 4.f3 Bf5 5.g4 even once, but I know that I would give it up if I had one or two bruising experiences against prepared opponents- some players don't consider that sort of thing worth the risk, and that's absolutely fine.   I've only had a handful of games with the Modern Steinitz and have yet to face 5.0-0 or 5.c3, although one casual game went 5.Bxc6+ bxc6 6.0-0 Bg4 7.h3 h5, transposing to the line where Black is OK after 8.d4 Bxf3! 9.Qxf3 exd4 (in the game itself White erred with 8.hxg4).

Taylor's 12...Nh6 suggestion was in the extract I saw at Amazon but he still reckons that White is better with best play (and I agree).

I didn't know about the NIC review on the Siesta, thanks for that.  The 5.0-0 Nge7 looks interesting- does Taylor actually address this?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Arcticmonkey
Full Member
***
Offline


Russell Peters ftw

Posts: 118
Joined: 02/21/11
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #104 - 05/17/11 at 15:26:34
Post Tools
NeverGiveUp wrote on 05/13/11 at 13:45:19:
SWJediknight wrote on 05/13/11 at 10:09:11:
Shipov suggested that 16...Bxg5 17.fxg5 c6 might have given more chances.


This suggestion does look very sensible and is most probably much better than the game continuation. So maybe black is still (reasonably?) all right after 12.Qd3


Well, i think Taylor thinks that 12...Nh6 is best, since the knight is still trapped on g5 so maybe the gambit is still ok. Still think that if i was a GM, it would probably only work on suprise value, i doubt it would work against a prepared opponent since i think there are numerous tries for an edge for White. But, that doesnt mean that the line is refuted
« Last Edit: 05/18/11 at 13:59:54 by Arcticmonkey »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
NeverGiveUp
Full Member
***
Offline


Never despair in a lost
position

Posts: 221
Joined: 11/18/09
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #103 - 05/17/11 at 15:03:53
Post Tools
SWJediknight wrote on 05/17/11 at 14:35:55:
[quote author=4A666E7F6A6564627F64780B0 link=1249478553/51#51 date=1298105450]
I am not convinced that the same won't happen with the Siesta in the next decade- it looks sound for the moment, but Tim Harding's article illustrates that the final verdict in the most critical line has yet to be reached.

But as you say, Black has decent solid ideas to fall back upon including 5...Nge7, and 5...Bd7 followed by ...g6 or ...Nge7-g6.


Thanks for this.

There has been a review in NIC by AC van der Tak on the Siesta called "Black can sleep quietly in the Siesta variation" which is a sequel on an earlier article where van der Tak was waiting for improvements of white which he says have "failed to materialise", so this variation has been about for a long long time now without white being able to achieve anything serious. It looks like one of black's best lines within the MS complex, although the Rubinstein is also pretty good albeit totally out of fashion nowadays (what is an advantage as far as I'm concerned). Smiley

5.0-0 is definitely critical and limits blacks option considerably. Keres also played 5.0-0 himself.

On club level the Yandemirov may be OK, feel free to play around with it, but don't underestimate the theoretical knowledge of club players! Myself I don't like playing lines that are theoretically basically unsound. Undecided 

The interesting point about 5.0-0 Nge7!? is that it may almost force white into going into the Rubinstein since 6.d4 is probably not very good - very contrary to 5.0-0 Bd7 6.d4! where white is doing very well and black is in trouble. Roll Eyes
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SWJediknight
God Member
*****
Online


Alert... opponent out
of book!

Posts: 900
Joined: 03/14/08
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #102 - 05/17/11 at 14:35:55
Post Tools
Ametanoitos wrote on 02/19/11 at 08:50:50:
Black gets the piece back but White maintains a healthy advantage in 2 or 3 ways. Kritz believes that the position is unclear and only the "old" line with c4 Rb8 etc gives an advantage for Black. My opinion is that Black has problems in more lines. You can always call these lines unclear but "unclear" just hides the truth from an inexperienced reader (or player). Deeper analysis reveals that White is just better. And his advantage is not a "slight" one.


Having seen some preview pages of "Slay the Spanish" over at Amazon, I tend to agree with Ametanoitos's assessment, and also Taylor's assessment in the book (beyond risky at 2600+ level but at lower levels/fast time limits players could have a lot of fun with it if they're prepared to take risks).  Deep analysis reveals that White has too many promising continuations at present for the line to be likely to make a comeback at high levels.   In that respect the line is like 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4, which at one time was considered respectable and quite popular with GMs, but is now under a cloud due to 4.f3 Bf5 5.g4 (analysed by Stefan Bucker at Kaissiber #32)- such is life with risky lines for Black in the computer era.

I am not convinced that the same won't happen with the Siesta in the next decade- it looks sound for the moment, but Tim Harding's article illustrates that the final verdict in the most critical line has yet to be reached.

But as you say, if one considers the risks to be too large, Black has decent solid ideas to fall back upon including 5...Nge7, and 5...Bd7 followed by ...g6 or ...Nge7-g6 (and they also work against 5.c3, if Black isn't tempted by the Siesta).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
NeverGiveUp
Full Member
***
Offline


Never despair in a lost
position

Posts: 221
Joined: 11/18/09
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #101 - 05/17/11 at 11:01:56
Post Tools
SWJediknight wrote on 05/13/11 at 19:52:54:
I don't know if I've missed something but 12...c6 looks better, e.g. 13.c4 (else 13...f6 and 14...fxg5) 13...b4 14.c5 f6 followed by 15...fxg5 looks only mildly advantageous for White, play is complicated, and I would quite fancy Black's chances OTB.


Sorry but my verdict on the Yandemirov gambit is pretty negative now - as per Taylor's book - I should add to say his analyses of this lot are very good!

Since Grischuk's defeat in 2008 the variation has not been played at high level, probably because it has been busted.

I have been looking at the b4/c6 idea as well but I'm afraid it doesn't save the line for black and it has been analysed by Gashimov who recommends (after 12...c6 13.c4 b4 14.c5 f6) 15.Nd2, followed by Nc4, cd6:, Rd1 and white's attack is stronger. I looked at this and he is right: black is just losing here.

So black has to play something else against 5.0-0 and an interesting possibility is 5. ... Nge7!? with the idea 6.d4 ed4: 7.Nd4: b5 8.Nc6: Nc6: 9.Bb3 Na5 and black is basically OK.
White can go for a pawn sac here with 7.c3!? dc3: 8.Nc3: but it's unclear if white has enough compensation after 8. ... Bd7.
After 6.c3 black can go 6. ... Bd7 (Rubinstein) or 6. ... Ng6 7.d4 Be7!? with the idea 8.d5 b5 and avoiding playing Bd7 altogether. This is a pawn sac after 9.dc6: ba4: 10.Qa4: but black has good compensation after 10. ... 0-0 with f5 to come.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SWJediknight
God Member
*****
Online


Alert... opponent out
of book!

Posts: 900
Joined: 03/14/08
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #100 - 05/13/11 at 19:52:54
Post Tools
Upon a close look I don't like 16...Bxg5 17.fxg5 c6 18.Ne2 Ne7 19.Ng3 for Black- it's probably the best Black has in this position, but it's a pretty strong += at least, and Black's attacking chances down the h-file are close to non-existent.  In addition White has some good alternatives on moves 14-16.

However, I'm suspicious of 12...Rb8 allowing 13.Rxa6 in the 12.Qd3 line.  I don't know if I've missed something but 12...c6 looks better, e.g. 13.c4 (else 13...f6 and 14...fxg5) 13...b4 14.c5 f6 followed by 15...fxg5 looks only mildly advantageous for White, play is complicated, and I would quite fancy Black's chances OTB.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
NeverGiveUp
Full Member
***
Offline


Never despair in a lost
position

Posts: 221
Joined: 11/18/09
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #99 - 05/13/11 at 13:45:19
Post Tools
SWJediknight wrote on 05/13/11 at 10:09:11:
Shipov suggested that 16...Bxg5 17.fxg5 c6 might have given more chances.


This suggestion does look very sensible and is most probably much better than the game continuation. So maybe black is still (reasonably?) all right after 12.Qd3
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SWJediknight
God Member
*****
Online


Alert... opponent out
of book!

Posts: 900
Joined: 03/14/08
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #98 - 05/13/11 at 10:09:11
Post Tools
I'll have to look at some of these ideas, notably 12.Qd3, over the weekend as I originally found the line quite attractive for Black (if insufficient for full equality) but Gashimov's game against Grischuk looks quite convincing.  According to a comment at Chessgames.com ( http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1492751 ), Shipov suggested that 16...Bxg5 17.fxg5 c6 might have given more chances.  All of this said, even if it does prove unsound, the line might still be viable at club level given that it has been shown to work at GM level against unprepared opposition.

To my knowledge one critical line after 7. O-O is 7...Bd3 8.Re1 Be7 9.Bc2 Bxc2 10.Qxc2 Nf6 11.d4 e4 12.Ng5 d5 13.f3 h6 14.Nh3 O-O 15.Nd2 exf3 16.Nxf3 Rf7 with a roughly equal game, as also played by Yandemirov himself with a win and two draws in his games at Chessgames.com, while the lines given in Harding's coverage might give White a small advantage but also give Black the sort of double-edged play that he/she is looking for.  Thus 5.0-0 does look the most critical, with Black unlikely to find a way to full equality.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
NeverGiveUp
Full Member
***
Offline


Never despair in a lost
position

Posts: 221
Joined: 11/18/09
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #97 - 05/13/11 at 09:05:59
Post Tools
Sorry of course in A] and B] 6.Bc6: and 6.c3 should read 5.Bc6: and 5.c3
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
NeverGiveUp
Full Member
***
Offline


Never despair in a lost
position

Posts: 221
Joined: 11/18/09
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #96 - 05/13/11 at 09:04:24
Post Tools
I now also think that 5.0-0 is critical since:
A]After 6.Bc6: bc6: 7.d4 black has two very decent lines 7. ... ed4: and 7. ... f6 which both might equalise. Taylor may be right that 7. ... ed4: is the easier option. Opening up the position for the bishops makes a lot of sense.
B]After 6.c3 the siesta (6. ... f5) is definitely doable for black if he's happy to draw!, and also the Rubinstein (6. ... Bd7 7.d4 Nge7) is a very tough nut for white to crack indeed.
After 5.0-0 the Yandermirov though interesting is probably too risky (it doesn't get more risky than this!) and the critical line might be 5. ... Bg4 6.h3 h5 7.d4 b5 8.Bb3 Nf4: 9.hg4: Nb3: 10.ab3: hg4: 11.Ng5 Qd7 12.Qd3!?; Grischuk lost against this with black. Taylor mentions this move but is vague about it, what is a bit annoying since it's a critical line.
Instead one should probably go 5. ... Bd7 after which white's best move seems to be 6.d4!. Accepting the pawn sac is now dangerous for black since d7 is not available for the Queen as in 5.d4?! b5 6.Bb3 Nd4: 7.Nd4: ed4:, and white gets good compensation (black is probably worse). So again Taylor is probably right that black should go 6. ... Nf6! after d4 after which white's options are limited and he has to play 7.c3 if he wants to go for advantage. Then Taylor recommends playing the "bishop defence" 7. ... g6 8.Re1(!) b5 9.Bb3 Bg7 when black is very solid and it's very hard for white to achieve anything. Keres played this line himself several times and got good results.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #95 - 05/11/11 at 14:36:17
Post Tools
SWJediknight wrote on 05/11/11 at 14:28:24:
I note that Harding doesn't believe in Yandemirov's pet line (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0–0 Bg4 6.h3 h5 7 d4 b5 8 Bb3 Nxd4 9 hxg4 Nxb3).  I may have to take a closer look at that one, as my impression was always that it isn't a "true" piece sacrifice as Black regains the piece with ...f6xg5, as in his main line 10.axb3 hxg4 11.Ng5 Qd7 12.c4 Rb8 13.Rxa6 f6 14.Nc3 fxg5 15.Nxb5 Nf6, and when I looked at it earlier it looked += at worst (and Black seems to be scoring OK at high levels), whereas 9...hxg4 is a true piece sac and probably at least +/- with best play as Harding demonstrates.  I think failing all of this Black can probably drop the bishop back at move 7 or 8, and still maintain some counterchances but White has some advantage in that case.

The Siesta seems to be looking alright for Black at the moment, though maybe += if White plays very accurately in the 7.d4 line.


I once won a corr game fairly easily with 7.0-0.  I notice that Harding thinks Black is fine there.  Though I'm not up on the theory, my impression when I played that game was that White's chances are underrated.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SWJediknight
God Member
*****
Online


Alert... opponent out
of book!

Posts: 900
Joined: 03/14/08
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #94 - 05/11/11 at 14:28:24
Post Tools
I note that Harding doesn't believe in Yandemirov's pet line (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0–0 Bg4 6.h3 h5 7 d4 b5 8 Bb3 Nxd4 9 hxg4 Nxb3).  I may have to take a closer look at that one, as my impression was always that it isn't a "true" piece sacrifice as Black regains the piece with ...f6xg5, as in his main line 10.axb3 hxg4 11.Ng5 Qd7 12.c4 Rb8 13.Rxa6 f6 14.Nc3 fxg5 15.Nxb5 Nf6, and when I looked at it earlier it looked += at worst (and Black seems to be scoring OK at high levels), whereas 9...hxg4 is a true piece sac and probably at least +/- with best play as Harding demonstrates.  I think failing all of this Black can probably drop the bishop back at move 7 or 8, and still maintain some counterchances but White has some advantage in that case.

The Siesta seems to be looking alright for Black at the moment, though maybe += if White plays very accurately in the 7.d4 line.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Matemax
God Member
*****
Offline


Chesspub gives you strength!

Posts: 1302
Joined: 11/04/07
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #93 - 05/11/11 at 04:09:25
Post Tools
Review from Tim Harding at chess cafe:
http://www.chesscafe.com/Tim/kibb.htm
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BabySnake
Full Member
***
Offline


Opening repertoire construction
underway

Posts: 174
Joined: 10/21/10
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #92 - 04/07/11 at 09:08:11
Post Tools
Playslikefish wrote on 04/07/11 at 02:22:53:
I have slowly been working through Marin's book on the Open Game  and Sokolov book on The Ruy Lopez and enjoying it. Kind of decided to play to try out the variation offered by Sokolov with an early "g6".

Noticed some similarity with line discussed in NeverGiveUp post. Wondering if Slay Spanish would be helpful in understanding early g6 line?


Without having read Taylor's book (I am waiting for my copy in the mail) but having seen the excerpt online I think it will be a great supplement to Sokolov's book (that I do have). I play this line myself, having only recently put it into my repertoire.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Playslikefish
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 22
Joined: 12/05/09
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #91 - 04/07/11 at 02:22:53
Post Tools
I have slowly been working through Marin's book on the Open Game  and Sokolov book on The Ruy Lopez and enjoying it. Kind of decided to play to try out the variation offered by Sokolov with an early "g6".

Noticed some similarity with line discussed in NeverGiveUp post. Wondering if Slay Spanish would be helpful in understanding early g6 line?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #90 - 04/06/11 at 18:18:21
Post Tools
Jonathan Tait wrote on 04/05/11 at 07:47:16:
Markovich wrote on 04/04/11 at 19:34:05:
It's not him, it's his editors.  I suspect there is a freelance editor involved and that he has just thrown up his hands.


Not at all. TT has an idiosyncratic style but I don't see there's anything wrong with that. He writes books that are meant to be read. That's the point. He's not writing an opening encyclopaedia in which variations are neatly mapped out for easy reference, from which moves can just be memorized. He's writing a book about the opening.


I certainly don't expect every openings book to be a compact, encyclopedic reference.  I do expect that the arguments presented be concise, cogent and correct, and in each respect I find significant fault with Taylor and his editors.  Taylor's style could be called idiosyncratic; it could also be called verbose, undisciplined and evasive.  But it seems that you and I will have to agree to disagree on the merit of Taylor's books. 
« Last Edit: 04/06/11 at 19:28:12 by Markovich »  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
NeverGiveUp
Full Member
***
Offline


Never despair in a lost
position

Posts: 221
Joined: 11/18/09
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #89 - 04/05/11 at 13:41:47
Post Tools
I think the book is quite good. He gives a nice mix of variations to choose from. Basing the choice of variations on Keres is an excellent idea.

I'm intrigued by his chapter 2 "the bishop's defence" where he makes a plea for 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.c3 Bd7 6.d4 Nf6 7.0-0 g6!? 8.Re1 b5. He advocates this as a general system than can be used against both 5.c3 and 5.0-0 with the point that after 5.0-0 Bd7 6.d4!? black can (and should) go 6. ... Nf6! after which white has nothing better than transposing to the main line with 7.c3. Black should prefer this over 6. ... b5 7.Bb3 Nd4: 8.Nd4: ed4: 9.Qh5 since he lacks the move Qd7. I have checked this system and these move order intricacies against my other sources and they stand up.

I'm also intrigued by his choice of 5.Bc6:+ bc6: 6.d4 ed4:!? where he may have a point that black is doing well in these variations and that the usual += verdict for these lines (like in Greet's book) may be more =.

I do have some misgivings; I can't agree with his dismissal of 5.Bc6:+ bc6: 6.d4 f6 since the lines he gives to justify this are (heavily) insufficient and inconvincing. He may have a point though that with black having the bishop's pair it makes sense to open the position straight away with ed4:. Also in the Yandemirov chapter he says that Qd3 may be good for white but doesn't really give detailed analysis or a final verdict what leaves me wondering - is this variation any good y/n? And what should black do against Qd3??

So it's not all plain sailing but my overall verdict is quite positive. I would say 8 out of 10.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Arcticmonkey
Full Member
***
Offline


Russell Peters ftw

Posts: 118
Joined: 02/21/11
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #88 - 04/05/11 at 13:25:03
Post Tools
'To emphasize the necessity of correct move orders by showing why certain move orders are wrong.'

>>>You are right, but i don't see the reason why he spent so many pages on it.

'But are these things unnecessary? Maybe, if you just want a reference work. But TT doesn't write reference works. He writes books.'

>>>Well, personally i think the project should be given more importance than how the author writes. This is after all an opening book, not just a random project where everyman has said: 'Write whatever u want and hang in 288 pages' (at least i dont think they did). Now this is not to say that he can;t incorporate his own style, because of course he can. I just think that because this is an opening book then most of the discussion should be on theoretical lines rather than 2 pages on why the elephant gambit is bad. To be clear i think that since this is an opening book then it SHOULD read more like a reference work as that is the standard of today. I also think that including puzzles for the reader makes it a step further than just being a reference work, however this depends on your intended audience. If you read the book like a novel then i see your points of including the extra material that he has included. However i don't think many people are reading this book as a novel, middlegame books are more like novels, not opening ones. I also disagree with the lack of structure as this detracts from the reference quality of the book.

But i agree with most of your points, but i still remain firm in my position that much of the material could be substituted for something better (like puzzles instead of the world champions section) or just outright deleted. After all, this is first and foremost a book on the opening, not reinforcing the point of following correct move orders for several pages.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jonathan Tait
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 497
Location: Nottingham
Joined: 07/11/06
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #87 - 04/05/11 at 08:02:12
Post Tools
Arcticmonkey wrote on 04/04/11 at 18:13:07:
So all in all, i think the book is a solid 8.5/10. The analysis is very good as always with Taylor but i cannot get over the strange and sometimes downright confusing format that he presents his material in. There's little structure (he doesn't really miss much (i've only seen 2 small things since ive been studying it for about two week), it's just all muddled up between the games. The e-book format is also released so that would make it easier to just delete things that are unecessary (which is quite a lot of deleting).


But are these things unnecessary? Maybe, if you just want a reference work. But TT doesn't write reference works. He writes books.

Looking at the examples you give:

Arcticmonkey wrote on 04/04/11 at 18:13:07:
There is one section in the Siesta line, where he gives about 2 pages of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d5. He gives us a long story about Tal, then goes on to say that the gambit is bad (he also calls it something weird as well, i thought it was just the Elephant gambit). What is the point of having this? i dont know.


To demonstrate that avoiding the book moves is sometimes stupid.

Arcticmonkey wrote on 04/04/11 at 18:13:07:
There are also instances where its just damn confusing. So, in the Actual first chapter on the theory of the ...Nge7 solid line, the first two games are with the wrong move order. Now, Taylor goes on to point out that this is deliberately the wrong move and should not be adopted which is fine, but it has me wondering why approximately 4 pages were spent on it. A (at least in my view) better approach would have been to simply tell us the wrong move order, in a game (or two) which has the right move order.


To emphasize the necessity of correct move orders by showing why certain move orders are wrong.

I'd guess these elements come from his work with his students. Sometimes things have to be said repeatedly, and with examples and explanations so that they stick.

Arcticmonkey wrote on 04/04/11 at 18:13:07:
Here's my biggest problem. For some reason, he forgets that this is an opening book quite a lot of the time. He gives entire games annotated; yes i even mean the endings fully annotated. I don't particularly see the point of doing this. The chance that you'll follow a game that long (if you can even remember that far) and that someone will improve on move 53 is extremely low, its probably never even happened ever. It's obvious that he's very passionate about these particular games that he annotates but perhaps in a seperate book written on the endgame. This goes into another problem of giving entire game scores. I'm not sure if he realises that everyone has chessbase these days, and that they can look up the rest of the game in the database.


Because if you are actually reading the book then this stuff is interesting. And mostly everything is there for a reason. For instance, in the Exchange chapters there are numerous full games in the notes. These are may well be unnecessary theoretically, but he wants to emphasize that these positions are boring and depressing for Black. And he wants to hammer that point home.

Arcticmonkey wrote on 04/04/11 at 18:13:07:
The entire first section (which is about 40 pages long) is given on how world champions played this opening. Almost all of them have no theoretical significance, and a lot of them start off with a different move order so different positions are reached to the lines that he recommends. Again i don't see the point of this entire chapter; perhaps some useful themes can be grasped from a deep study of these games but like i said the positions are unique due to the different move orders. My suggestion would be (instead of this entire chapter), have puzzles both tactical and positional which reinforce the themes. I think this will work a lot better than asking 1600-2300 players go through about 10 games which they will probably just breeze through, not understanding some things along the way (thats what i did).


I think this is partly propaganda: See what a good opening this is, how well Black did in all these games, how even very strong players have played feebly and struggled as White. From this the reader starts to get a feel for the opening and is encouraged at the same time.

And it's history as well. Personally I like openings being put in historical context: where up-to-date theory, analysis and games are juxtaposed with those from earlier days and centuries. And this is very appropriate for Open Games since a lot of the old stuff is still relevant.

So to go back to your original comment:

Arcticmonkey wrote on 04/04/11 at 18:13:07:
BUT PLEASE IM TIMOTHY TAYLOR IF YOU HAPPEN TO BE READING THIS! CUT DOWN ON THE UNECESSARY MATERIAL!


Perhaps he will, but I wouldn't hold your breath Wink
  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Jonathan Tait
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 497
Location: Nottingham
Joined: 07/11/06
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #86 - 04/05/11 at 07:47:16
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 04/04/11 at 19:34:05:
It's not him, it's his editors.  I suspect there is a freelance editor involved and that he has just thrown up his hands.


Not at all. TT has an idiosyncratic style but I don't see there's anything wrong with that. He writes books that are meant to be read. That's the point. He's not writing an opening encyclopaedia in which variations are neatly mapped out for easy reference, from which moves can just be memorized. He's writing a book about the opening.
  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Arcticmonkey
Full Member
***
Offline


Russell Peters ftw

Posts: 118
Joined: 02/21/11
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #85 - 04/05/11 at 07:25:05
Post Tools
Jansa...sorry I'm not familiar with that author. What and when was his publishing?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1427
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #84 - 04/05/11 at 06:41:55
Post Tools
Thanks! But...do you have Jansa's book in your computer?   Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Arcticmonkey
Full Member
***
Offline


Russell Peters ftw

Posts: 118
Joined: 02/21/11
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #83 - 04/05/11 at 04:46:56
Post Tools
I was going to compare analysis very soon, not to worry! I have both on the computer
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1427
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #82 - 04/04/11 at 22:14:19
Post Tools
Having visited Glasgow and the Quality Chess head quarters last week, this enabled me to see from my own the amount of work the editors put in their books (and this is not the only thing i saw. I also glanced at some Avrukh's chapters for his new book! It will be absolutely fantastic, i guarantee!), so i can only agree with Mark. The writter can write everything he wants. It is the editors responsibility to make the final product how it really should be. Of course this is because the editor has signed a contract with the author for a specific subject, so he editor can ask the author to fullfill his demands.

Generally i am not so negative on reading other interesting stuff, annotated endings, or stories about lines that are not played anymore if the analysis is correct on the opening i am interested in. Once again, i would compare Taylor's analysis with Kritz's analysis (from a recent CBM) and with Jansa's analysis (from his book Dynamics of Chess Strategy) and then form an opinion about Taylor's work. Does these sources mentioned at the Bibliography? I would surprized if they are. Can anyone please compare the analysis? I want to buy the book, but i really don't want to give so much money only to discover later that Taylor hasn't done his job with the important sources.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #81 - 04/04/11 at 19:34:05
Post Tools
It's not him, it's his editors.  I suspect there is a freelance editor involved and that he has just thrown up his hands.  I thought that Taylor's Alekhine book was about 2/10, so I won't buy another of his until I hear a much better review than this.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Arcticmonkey
Full Member
***
Offline


Russell Peters ftw

Posts: 118
Joined: 02/21/11
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #80 - 04/04/11 at 18:13:07
Post Tools
I recently acquired this book. There are a couple of things which i find very inconvenient but i think the analysis is rather top notch.

As usual, Taylor's recommendations are very dynamic and rather good. They certainly improve on whatever was written before, especially Khalifman's work. The good thing as well, is that he offers two solid main lines as well as two sharp gambits, basically appealing to everyone. The other good thing is, if you're more of a universal player (kinda what i like to think about myself) then you can use both and annoying people who are preparing against you.

HOWEVER, there are annoying things in the book which i alluded to earlier. Taylor doesn't have seemed to have learned from his previous books (at least the one on the alekhine that i have) in that he provides much useless information and sometime things that just do not need to be there. Let me give you a few examples:

There is one section in the Siesta line, where he gives about 2 pages of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d5. He gives us a long story about Tal, then goes on to say that the gambit is bad (he also calls it something weird as well, i thought it was just the Elephant gambit). What is the point of having this? i dont know.

There are also instances where its just damn confusing. So, in the Actual first chapter on the theory of the ...Nge7 solid line, the first two games are with the wrong move order. Now, Taylor goes on to point out that this is deliberately the wrong move and should not be adopted which is fine, but it has me wondering why approximately 4 pages were spent on it. A (at least in my view) better approach would have been to simply tell us the wrong move order, in a game (or two) which has the right move order.

Here's my biggest problem. For some reason, he forgets that this is an opening book quite a lot of the time. He gives entire games annotated; yes i even mean the endings fully annotated. I don't particularly see the point of doing this. The chance that you'll follow a game that long (if you can even remember that far) and that someone will improve on move 53 is extremely low, its probably never even happened ever. It's obvious that he's very passionate about these particular games that he annotates but perhaps in a seperate book written on the endgame. This goes into another problem of giving entire game scores. I'm not sure if he realises that everyone has chessbase these days, and that they can look up the rest of the game in the database.

The entire first section (which is about 40 pages long) is given on how world champions played this opening. Almost all of them have no theoretical significance, and a lot of them start off with a different move order so different positions are reached to the lines that he recommends. Again i don't see the point of this entire chapter; perhaps some useful themes can be grasped from a deep study of these games but like i said the positions are unique due to the different move orders. My suggestion would be (instead of this entire chapter), have puzzles both tactical and positional which reinforce the themes. I think this will work a lot better than asking 1600-2300 players go through about 10 games which they will probably just breeze through, not understanding some things along the way (thats what i did).

So all in all, i think the book is a solid 8.5/10. The analysis is very good as always with Taylor but i cannot get over the strange and sometimes downright confusing format that he presents his material in. There's little structure (he doesn't really miss much (i've only seen 2 small things since ive been studying it for about two week), it's just all muddled up between the games. The e-book format is also released so that would make it easier to just delete things that are unecessary (which is quite a lot of deleting).

BUT PLEASE IM TIMOTHY TAYLOR IF YOU HAPPEN TO BE READING THIS! CUT DOWN ON THE UNECESSARY MATERIAL! The good thing is though, he evidently loves his chess very much, which im guessing has enabled him to produce some high class analysis.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Phil Adams
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 157
Joined: 04/04/08
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #79 - 04/02/11 at 21:02:40
Post Tools
strawlegs wrote on 04/02/11 at 14:40:49:
In 1974, RHM put out a book How to Open a Chess Game with articles by big time GMs, including Keres, Larsen, and Petrosian.  Lajos Portisch recommended the modern Steinitz as a relatively simple practical choice for amateurs.


In this chapter there is the famous "Portischism":

"Your only task in the opening is to reach a playable middlegame."

In the same book Keres wrote about how he and his second developed new ideas in the Siesta and the Closed.

A classic book!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
strawlegs
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 7
Location: vancouver
Joined: 01/07/03
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #78 - 04/02/11 at 14:40:49
Post Tools
In 1974, RHM put out a book How to Open a Chess Game with articles by big time GMs, including Keres, Larsen, and Petrosian.  Lajos Portisch recommended the modern Steinitz as a relatively simple practical choice for amateurs.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 2001
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #77 - 03/26/11 at 13:53:13
Post Tools
Depends how you play it that surely? With 4..f5 vs 4 c3 and Bg4/h5 etc vs o-o its active but maybe a little on the margins of soundness.

The sensible alternative stuff isn't especially active but perfectly sound.

Oh and the idea of getting an advantage as black against the lopez (with good play from white of course!) is very silly Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Arcticmonkey
Full Member
***
Offline


Russell Peters ftw

Posts: 118
Joined: 02/21/11
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #76 - 03/26/11 at 09:43:12
Post Tools
grrrrr. I chose cuts down on a load of theory. But i wanted to choose 3 answers in one!
Recommended because its active and cuts down on a load of theory!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
walkingterrapin
Junior Member
**
Offline


Why play the Colle when
you can play 1.e4!!!!!!!!!

Posts: 98
Location: NC
Joined: 07/04/10
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #75 - 03/11/11 at 16:55:28
Post Tools
If you want an advantage against the Lopez you should play the marshall or give up on playing e5.  It isnt the Steintz
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jonathan Tait
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 497
Location: Nottingham
Joined: 07/11/06
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #74 - 03/03/11 at 16:34:58
Post Tools
NeverGiveUp wrote on 03/03/11 at 14:34:24:
I have ordered the book - do you guys know when it will be published?


I think it's out next week, but don't quote me on that Wink
  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
NeverGiveUp
Full Member
***
Offline


Never despair in a lost
position

Posts: 221
Joined: 11/18/09
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #73 - 03/03/11 at 14:34:24
Post Tools
Back to this thread then ... the delayed Schliemann (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 f5) is similar to the Siesta  (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.c3 f5!?) but less good - in the deferred Schliemann white can go 5.d4! ed4: 6.e5! with the better position, although the position remains complex. The deferred Schliemann can be used as a surprise weapon. I've done that if I needed to win against weaker players. I had a game where my opponent confused it with the regular Schliemann and went (after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 f5) 5.Nc3?! fe4:! 6.Ne4: b5 7.Bb3 d5 8.Nc3 Nf6 and black is better.   

Theoretically the Siesta is much better, since the main line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.c3 f5!? 6.ef5: Bf5: 7.0-0 Bd3 8.Re1 Be7 9.Bc2 Bc2: 10.Qc2: Nf6 11.d4 e4 12.Ng5 d5 13.f3 h6 14.Nh3 0-0 15.Nd2 ef3: 16.Nf3: offers white nothing. It might have some value as a surprise weapon as well, although I suspect lots of whites might be familiar with this line and then black is just playing a very drawish line rather than an attacking one. Still, this might be OK, so the only real theoretical test of the Modern Steinitz is 5.0-0.

I have ordered the book - do you guys know when it will be published?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jonathan Tait
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 497
Location: Nottingham
Joined: 07/11/06
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #72 - 02/28/11 at 10:36:10
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 02/28/11 at 10:26:12:
Evaluations, explanations and analyses are also information. You usually won't find them in a database.


Of course you will. Countless rubbishy books are based on the evaluations, explanations and analyses authors have culled from the databases. To his credit, Taylor's books aren't like that.
  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10551
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #71 - 02/28/11 at 10:26:12
Post Tools
Jonathan Tait wrote on 02/28/11 at 08:42:11:
If I was just after information I could just open a database.

Evaluations, explanations and analyses are also information. You usually won't find them in a database.
So this argument is not valid.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jonathan Tait
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 497
Location: Nottingham
Joined: 07/11/06
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #70 - 02/28/11 at 08:42:11
Post Tools
clickclick wrote on 02/28/11 at 06:33:07:
Reading some comments here, I understand his reputation is not great, but because I have never seen any of Taylor's previous works, I have to at least give him the benefit of the doubt.


I like his books. Not all his lines always stand up, but he always gives his own slant on things, his own ideas — which is what I want from an author. If I was just after information I could just open a database.
  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
clickclick
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 57
Joined: 10/06/10
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #69 - 02/28/11 at 06:33:07
Post Tools
I think (if I remember correctly) Dzindzichashvili also made a similar video for chess.com. After seeing the video, I didn't really know what to think, but 'great' is quite a far way from it.

Like previous posters I am also quite eager to see what Taylor has to offer regarding his 'bc exchange Ruy' variation. Reading some comments here, I understand his reputation is not great, but because I have never seen any of Taylor's previous works, I have to at least give him the benefit of the doubt.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
dragos
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


1.e4 is best met by the
Sicillian Sveshnikov

Posts: 13
Location: Montréal
Joined: 02/26/11
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #68 - 02/27/11 at 15:05:00
Post Tools
slay the dragon is a title of a dvd of Roman Dzin(sorry i don t know the rest of hi name) and is a great dvd buy it if you wan to kill the dragon but please stay in the ruy lopez territory.

I would recoomend to play the Gajewski variation against the lopez if you want to kill it Grin Cool Cool Sad Exclaim
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Roger Williamson
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 114
Joined: 09/26/08
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #67 - 02/26/11 at 18:40:25
Post Tools
Thanks!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #66 - 02/26/11 at 13:49:28
Post Tools
Roger Williamson wrote on 02/25/11 at 20:09:25:
  Seeing from the extracts that Taylor advocates playing 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. BxN bc as black, and yet still finds space to cover the mainline with 4... dc 5. 0-0 f6, I suspect that the old maxim of things that seem too good to be true being exactly that probably applies.

  And yet it is this approach; contrarian lines promoted by the patter that is Taylor's irritating writing style; that makes this book exert a strange pull on me...

  Give me the strength to resist this book on the same grounds on which it is being sold.

 


Save your money and if this defense interests you, check out your other sources and your database.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Roger Williamson
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 114
Joined: 09/26/08
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #65 - 02/25/11 at 20:09:25
Post Tools

  Seeing from the extracts that Taylor advocates playing 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. BxN bc as black, and yet still finds space to cover the mainline with 4... dc 5. 0-0 f6, I suspect that the old maxim of things that seem too good to be true being exactly that probably applies.

  And yet it is this approach; contrarian lines promoted by the patter that is Taylor's irritating writing style; that makes this book exert a strange pull on me...

  Give me the strength to resist this book on the same grounds on which it is being sold.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4668
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #64 - 02/24/11 at 19:41:15
Post Tools
Looking at some bits of the book, I got a whiff of bias (yeah, I know, unheard-of in repertoire books).  I'm accustomed to seeing 5. c3 Bd7 6. d4 Nge7 7. 0-0 Ng6 8. d5 considered as leading to a slight advantage for White, and that seems plausible to me.  Taylor thinks Black can equalize, but doesn't mention some things given in Tibor Karolyi's article on this line in the Yearbook a few years ago, for example.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Uhohspaghettio
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 510
Joined: 02/23/11
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #63 - 02/24/11 at 19:18:09
Post Tools
Wouldn't "Slay the Dragon" be a far better name for a book?

This way: 1) the title (while still outrageous) isn't obviously complete bs from the beginning.   

2) A Dragon is an actual creature that you can slay. And "slay" is like old English, the type of language you might find in books concerned with dragons.

As for this book, how about: "Slightly Improve Your Defence Against The Spanish"?
  

"I don't recall saying good luck."
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
NeverGiveUp
Full Member
***
Offline


Never despair in a lost
position

Posts: 221
Joined: 11/18/09
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #62 - 02/22/11 at 10:47:18
Post Tools
The original proposed title "Sleigh ride in Spain" didn't do because of the climate change
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Matemax
God Member
*****
Offline


Chesspub gives you strength!

Posts: 1302
Joined: 11/04/07
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #61 - 02/22/11 at 09:34:27
Post Tools
Jonathan Tait wrote on 02/22/11 at 09:28:58:
MNb wrote on 02/21/11 at 23:19:17:
Which is why I distrust all opening books titled like that.


But the marketing department likes hyperbole in the titles. What can you do? Wink

Obviously a typo - "Slow the Spanish" was the intented title
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jonathan Tait
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 497
Location: Nottingham
Joined: 07/11/06
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #60 - 02/22/11 at 09:28:58
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 02/21/11 at 23:19:17:
Which is why I distrust all opening books titled like that.


But the marketing department likes hyperbole in the titles. What can you do? Wink
  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10551
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #59 - 02/21/11 at 23:19:17
Post Tools
NeverGiveUp wrote on 02/21/11 at 16:12:43:
(Keres was one of the greatest giants of all times on opening theory)

I disagree, at least partly. His work on the Open Games, especially on the Danish, Göring, Scottish and King's Gambit (see his books written for East German Sportverlag Berlin) is seriously flawed, even for their time.
It might be different for the Ruy Lopez though; that's something I don't know.

NeverGiveUp wrote on 02/21/11 at 09:03:08:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0-0 Bg4 6.h3 h5 7.Bc6:+!? bc6: 8.d4 Bf3:! 9.Qf3: ed4: 10.Rd1 Qf6

MNb wrote on 02/21/11 at 10:46:05:
A razor sharp line to slay the Spanish indeed.

Jonathan Tait wrote on 02/21/11 at 19:44:25:
or to put it another way: it's difficult for Black to slay anything when White basically plays for a draw.

Which is why I distrust all opening books titled like that.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jonathan Tait
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 497
Location: Nottingham
Joined: 07/11/06
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #58 - 02/21/11 at 19:51:39
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 02/18/11 at 14:13:28:
Also the 5.Bxc6+ line leaves Black with a slight disadvantage and no counterplay, if I'm not mistaken.


White has nothing in that line. One might even say "less than nothing", since in Chapter 11 Taylor is proposing playing the same position for Black a tempo down; i.e. 4 Bxc6 bxc6 etc.
  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Jonathan Tait
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 497
Location: Nottingham
Joined: 07/11/06
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #57 - 02/21/11 at 19:44:25
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 02/21/11 at 10:46:05:
NeverGiveUp wrote on 02/21/11 at 09:03:08:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0-0 Bg4 6.h3 h5 7.Bc6:+!? bc6: 8.d4 Bf3:! 9.Qf3: ed4: 10.Rd1 Qf6

A razor sharp line to slay the Spanish indeed.


or to put it another way: it's difficult for Black to slay anything when White basically plays for a draw.
  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
SWJediknight
God Member
*****
Online


Alert... opponent out
of book!

Posts: 900
Joined: 03/14/08
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #56 - 02/21/11 at 19:27:34
Post Tools
NeverGiveUp wrote on 02/21/11 at 09:03:08:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0-0 Bg4 6.h3 h5 7.bc6:+!? bc6: 8.d4 is a serious alternative (maybe best) but black then has to go 8. ... Bf3:! 9.Qf3: ed4: 10.Rd1 Qf6 and is doing reasonably well. This is much better than Sokolov's 8. ... Qf6.   

Yeah, apologies, I tried to give that line but I missed out 9...exd4 10.Rd1!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
NeverGiveUp
Full Member
***
Offline


Never despair in a lost
position

Posts: 221
Joined: 11/18/09
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #55 - 02/21/11 at 16:12:43
Post Tools
Welcome on chesspub, Articmonkey!

I would say you have nicely summarised what people can expect from this book. I'm definitely going to buy it but will be a critical reader, and will check the choices of variations and conclusions against other sources (ideally of course, this should not be necessary). It's good that he based a lot of the choices of variations on Keres, because you hardly can go wrong then (Keres was one of the greatest giants of all times on opening theory), but I will be careful when he doesn't follow Keres. I do seriously wonder what variations he will throw in to justify 4. ... bc6: in the exchange variation.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Arcticmonkey
Full Member
***
Offline


Russell Peters ftw

Posts: 118
Joined: 02/21/11
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #54 - 02/21/11 at 11:46:11
Post Tools
So, someone said something about Taylor's Alekhine book being rubbish, which is interesting.
I just wanted to say that i think things could have been done a lot better and things omitted:
-Taylor gives whole game scores in his notes which is unecessary i find in most cases. It just takes up too much room.
-His explanations are sometimes irrelevant. I think in the Alekhine book he repeated his explanation (several times) of how White gets a 0.25 edge according to Fritz and Black has few winning chances. It wasn't a short explanation either.
-His theoretical coverage seems a little thin in places but fairly good for the most part. I think he's used all the good sources which some authors don't.

In Summary, i think someone was right when they pointed out that using full game scores cuts down on the analysis because of space, this is even worse when he uses full game scores in the annotations. So, that can easily be improved by cutting it off 1/3 of the way, a good rule which i discovered is that that no 'note' goes beyond move 20 using a stone-cold computer evaluation and some ideas at the end. Using an analysis format is not beyond everyman, I also think that 2 of the best books around (at least at the time) were 'fighting the anti-sicilians' and BUCO by Palliser. It is also ironic that both of these books were more than 30 pages shorter than 'Alekhine Alert', considering the in-depth invaluable information in these books.

Also, his explanations of stuff that seems kind of pointless could just be replaced by plans at the end of variation, i would like that a lot more. As the book ('Slay the Spanish') looks like its already done in game format, thats a little dissapointing but a really good thing is that he does provide alternatives to the mainlines which will make it harder for people to prepare.

So, this is my first comment on chesspub, don't cut me too deep if you disagree
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10551
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #53 - 02/21/11 at 10:46:05
Post Tools
NeverGiveUp wrote on 02/21/11 at 09:03:08:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0-0 Bg4 6.h3 h5 7.bc6:+!? bc6: 8.d4 Bf3:! 9.Qf3: ed4: 10.Rd1 Qf6 Qf6

A razor sharp line to slay the Spanish indeed. Then again, possibly you are justified by the author who incorporated 1.e4 c5 2.c3 in an attacking repertoire.
I suppose the Slav-Botvinnik is for strict positional players these days.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
NeverGiveUp
Full Member
***
Offline


Never despair in a lost
position

Posts: 221
Joined: 11/18/09
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #52 - 02/21/11 at 09:03:08
Post Tools
The verdict on the Yandemirov variation is no easy matter guys.

This is a razor-sharp line where black is sacking a piece so is taking a big, big risk. I wouldn't be surpised if someday a white comes with a significant theoretical improvement and the whole thing is being sent back to the drawing board. However that hasn't happened and by the looks of it black is doing quite allright: += max by best play of both sides, very much like most decent variations.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0-0 Bg4 6.h3 h5 7.bc6:+!? bc6: 8.d4 is a serious alternative (maybe best) but black then has to go 8. ... Bf3:! 9.Qf3: ed4: 10.Rd1 Qf6 and is doing reasonably well. This is much better than Sokolov's 8. ... Qf6.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1427
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #51 - 02/19/11 at 08:50:50
Post Tools
SWJediknight wrote on 02/18/11 at 20:48:10:
My conclusion was that 5.0-0 Bg4 6.h3 h5 7.d4 b5 8.Bb3 Nd4 9.hxg4 Nxb3 10.axb3 hxg4 11.Ng5 Qd7 is OK for Black- Black often wins the piece back anyway due to the trapped knight on g5, and some recent games in that line have confirmed that Black is doing alright.


Black gets the piece back but White maintains a healthy advantage in 2 or 3 ways. Kritz believes that the position is unclear and only the "old" line with c4 Rb8 etc gives an advantage for Black. My opinion is that Black has problems in more lines. You can always call these lines unclear but "unclear" just hides the truth from an inexperienced reader (or player). Deeper analysis reveals that White is just better. And his advantage is not a "slight" one.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SWJediknight
God Member
*****
Online


Alert... opponent out
of book!

Posts: 900
Joined: 03/14/08
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #50 - 02/18/11 at 20:48:10
Post Tools
I don't know about the recent CBM article but I looked over those lines with Fritz quite recently and concluded that Yanderimov's line offers good practical chances but probably isn't sound enough at the highest levels. 

My conclusion was that 5.0-0 Bg4 6.h3 h5 7.d4 b5 8.Bb3 Nd4 9.hxg4 Nxb3 10.axb3 hxg4 11.Ng5 Qd7 is OK for Black- Black often wins the piece back anyway due to the trapped knight on g5, and some recent games in that line have confirmed that Black is doing alright.

I think the problem is 7.Bxc6+ bxc6 8.d4 as played recently by Shirov.  After 8...Qf6 White might be able to get away with 9.hxg4!?.  After 9...hxg4 10.dxe5! (10.Ng5 Qh6 gives Black good compensation for the piece) 10...dxe5 11.Bg5 Qe6 12.Nh2 g3 13.fxg3! (the alternative 13.Ng4 again allows Black good play) 13...Bc5+ 14.Kh1 f6 15.Bc1 Nh6 16.Bxh6 Rxh6 17.g4 Ke7 18.Rf3 Qxg4 19.Nd2 Rah8 20.Rh3 Rxh3 21.gxh3 Qxh3 22.Qe2.  White is a piece up for two pawns and has taken the sting out of the black attack.  Given that White really dices with death in this line, it seems that Black ought to have improvements somewhere, but I can't find them.   If Black doesn't want to risk this double-edged line then 8...Bxf3 9.Qxf3 Qf6 10.Qb3 Ne7 is playable, and gives Black some hacking chances, but I think White has at least a small advantage.

I maintain my reservations about what I saw in the extract- I am wary of the possibility that the coverage of the critical lines may end up rather thin.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1427
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #49 - 02/18/11 at 18:25:02
Post Tools
NeverGiveUp wrote on 02/18/11 at 16:23:26:
Sorry to hear this Markovich.

I think on the theoretical verdict you are too pesimistic.
In the Siesta there has been a NIC survey by AC van der Tak titled "Black can sleep quietly in the Siesta variation" and focusses on the main line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.c3 f5 6.ef5: Bf5: 7.0-0 Bd3 8.Re1 Be7 9.Bc2 Bc2: 10.Qc2: Nf6 11.d4 e4 12.Ng5 d5 13.f3 h6 14.Nh3 0-0 15.Nd2 ef3: 16.Nf3: Rf7 where it has clearly been demonstrated that white has nothing.
Also in Yandemirov's variation black is very much OK after the razor-sharp 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0-0 Bg4 6.h3 h5 7.d4 b5 8.Bb3 Nd4: 9.hg4: Nb3: (!) 10.ab3: hg4: 11.Ng5 Qd7, that's another NIC survey.
Also after 5.Bc6: bc6: 6.d4 f6 black is very much OK in particular if he uses Alekhine's setup Ng8-e7-g6 and Be7 and answers h4 by h5.

But if Mr Taylor is rubbish as a writer then that's another matter! It definitely doesn't look like it by looking at the excerpts which look (are) very reasonable. But then I don't have any other book of this guy. What do others think of Mr Taylor as a writer? 


In a recent CBM article GM Kritz doesn't have the same good opinion about the Yanderimov
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkG
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 98
Joined: 01/30/08
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #48 - 02/18/11 at 17:38:13
Post Tools
NeverGiveUp wrote on 02/18/11 at 16:23:26:
Sorry to hear this Markovich.
But if Mr Taylor is rubbish as a writer then that's another matter! It definitely doesn't look like it by looking at the excerpts which look (are) very reasonable. But then I don't have any other book of this guy. What do others think of Mr Taylor as a writer? 


Taylor is a very good writer in the sense that he "sells" his recommended lines very well - you will want to play the MS after reading this book.

I have his Alekhine book and while I would acknowledge it has some shortcomings, I think Markovich is being much too harsh on it. Perhaps we need a thread in the 1.e4... section to identify the problems with it, if it truly is a waste of money.

One concern I would have is Taylor's penchant for enthusiastically recommending obscure lines with sometimes minimal analysis. In the case of the MS book, I am thrilled to see that many people will soon begin answering my habitual 4.Bxc6 with bxc6. Of course, I haven't seen his analysis yet but somehow I don't expect to have my opinion of this move changed.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #47 - 02/18/11 at 16:33:21
Post Tools
Maybe you're right, but for the time being, I'm from Missouri.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
NeverGiveUp
Full Member
***
Offline


Never despair in a lost
position

Posts: 221
Joined: 11/18/09
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #46 - 02/18/11 at 16:23:26
Post Tools
Sorry to hear this Markovich.

I think on the theoretical verdict you are too pesimistic.
In the Siesta there has been a NIC survey by AC van der Tak titled "Black can sleep quietly in the Siesta variation" and focusses on the main line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.c3 f5 6.ef5: Bf5: 7.0-0 Bd3 8.Re1 Be7 9.Bc2 Bc2: 10.Qc2: Nf6 11.d4 e4 12.Ng5 d5 13.f3 h6 14.Nh3 0-0 15.Nd2 ef3: 16.Nf3: Rf7 where it has clearly been demonstrated that white has nothing.
Also in Yandemirov's variation black is very much OK after the razor-sharp 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0-0 Bg4 6.h3 h5 7.d4 b5 8.Bb3 Nd4: 9.hg4: Nb3: (!) 10.ab3: hg4: 11.Ng5 Qd7, that's another NIC survey.
Also after 5.Bc6: bc6: 6.d4 f6 black is very much OK in particular if he uses Alekhine's setup Ng8-e7-g6 and Be7 and answers h4 by h5.

But if Mr Taylor is rubbish as a writer then that's another matter! It definitely doesn't look like it by looking at the excerpts which look (are) very reasonable. But then I don't have any other book of this guy. What do others think of Mr Taylor as a writer?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #45 - 02/18/11 at 14:13:28
Post Tools
I voted for "White has an edge."  The sharp lines are not very sound and the solid lines offer too little counterplay, has been the standard judgment for a long time.  I merely repeat it with no particular knowledge of whether it's still correct.  But the theoretical burden of proof is with Black.  Also the 5.Bxc6+ line leaves Black with a slight disadvantage and no counterplay, if I'm not mistaken.

I salute his skill in chess, but since throwing away my money on his extremely irritating and time-wasting Alekhine book, my opinion of Taylor's merit as an author is very much diminished.  Before I thought that in spite of his faults his work had some minimal merit; now, I think it doesn't and that it actually can make a negative contribution to someone's understanding.  They will, indeed, serve ice cold lemonade in Hell on the day I buy another Tim Taylor book. 
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
NeverGiveUp
Full Member
***
Offline


Never despair in a lost
position

Posts: 221
Joined: 11/18/09
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #44 - 02/18/11 at 09:40:57
Post Tools
Thanks for this guys. I went through the parts of the book that are available on the website. Being able to evaluate a book like this is a very good thing and much appreciated (thanks Everyman) because it gives a good idea what the contents of a book really is and the style of writing etc.

Must say it's all looking good. Tim Taylor puts the unforgettable giant Paul Keres (rightly) in the spotlight and it would appear that his selection of variations is similar to Keres'. His selection of variations is very interesting. The games and annotations look quite good. I consider the Modern Steintiz (MS) to be a very proper choice for a RL repertoire for black for the following reasons:

1.The variation starts at move 4, so you don't have to learn too many sidelines, and you will get "your thing" on the board most of the time (the only way for white to avoid this lot is the exchange variation, which is also covered in the book). Unlike, as Tim Taylor rightly says, if you play the marshall gambit - you might never get there because white will deviate, and you have to learn really lots of theory. So this lot is quite manageable for a club player.

2.The Modern Steinitz is theoretically sound (see the other link on this subject) and has been played by several top players and world champions.

3.Tim Taylor gives people a choice if they want to play aggresive attacking lines (Siesta, Yandemirov) or go for solid quiet lines like the Rubinstein. So within the MS compex itself, if you don't like a line you can go for another one without having to change your repertoire altogether.   

4.The MS is very much out of fashion (why?), so most whites will be unfamiliar with it and have little experience with the type of positions what constitutes a major practical advantage.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Oblonskij
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 71
Joined: 10/27/10
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #43 - 02/16/11 at 14:27:33
Post Tools
in Germany "Home Improvement" was aired with the rather stupid title "Hör mal wer da hämmert" ("listen who uses a hammer there"). I chuckled a little at the reference.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
rossia
Senior Member
****
Offline


Saw: "Game Over!"

Posts: 334
Location: Irkutsk
Joined: 09/17/07
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #42 - 02/16/11 at 12:58:53
Post Tools
Some statistics:

1.TOP PRACTITIONERS SINCE 2005:

Mamedyarov, Jussupow, Milov, Malaniuk, Short, Winants, Yandemirov

2. SCORE OF WORLD CHAMPIONS AND ELITE PLAYERS (more than 10 games):

Alekhine: 12,5 out of 16 games or 78%  Cheesy
Keres: 31,5 out of 44 games or 72%  Smiley
Capablanca: 14 out of 20 games or 70%
Spassky: 7,5 out of 11 games or 68%
Bronstein: 9 out of 14 games or 64%
Portisch: 7 out of 12 games or 58%
Smyslov: 13 out of 23 games or 57%
Malaniuk: 27 out of 48 games or 56%
Ciocaltea: 28,5 out of 57 games or 50%
Huebner: 5 out of 12 games or 42%
Gligoric: 4 out of 10 games or 40%
Jussupow: 6 out of 19 games or 32%

Source: ChessBase Mega 2011
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
rossia
Senior Member
****
Offline


Saw: "Game Over!"

Posts: 334
Location: Irkutsk
Joined: 09/17/07
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #41 - 02/16/11 at 12:23:55
Post Tools
Friends, please give me your feedback  Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10551
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #40 - 02/16/11 at 00:28:42
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 02/15/11 at 09:50:26:
I don't for two reasons.

1) The title of the book doesn't combine well with "While it's possible to enter the solid" and "what seems to be the main line, the extremely boring"
2) "11 Dh5+! is probably the real test of Keres’ move order." Taylor gives one game and zero analysis.


Alias wrote on 02/15/11 at 10:37:43:
1) The title is silly, but so is many other chess book titles, like eg "Sveshnikov Reloaded", the best opening book I've seen.

2) As Taylor prefers 10...Nf6 there is no need to spend too much space on 10...Bd6 11.Qh5+.


1) The title is more than silly - it's misleading. Kill the KID is even a more stupid book title, but at least it refers to the content of the book.
2) Then he spends too much space on 10...Bd6 overall. He should have used that Marciniak-W.Swiecicki game as a note to 10...Nf6. Now it's neither meat nor fish, as the Dutch proverb goes.
I maintain my two points. In opening books I don't like this popularizing superficiality. That's personal of course, there obviously is a market for it.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SWJediknight
God Member
*****
Online


Alert... opponent out
of book!

Posts: 900
Joined: 03/14/08
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #39 - 02/15/11 at 22:54:55
Post Tools
Not sure about this book (despite the fact that I've taken up the Modern Steinitz as Black quite recently).  I recall that most of Timothy Taylor's recent books have received mixed reviews, e.g. the Bird's Opening and Budapest ones.

My other reservation is one of personal taste- like Tim Harding, I'm not a fan of the "opening analysis based on illustrative games" approach- I prefer the encyclopaedic type of structure, and think the former often leads to much "thinner" coverage of the lines due to a lot of space being taken up on the games.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1427
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #38 - 02/15/11 at 14:30:16
Post Tools
4...bxc6 against the exchange? I'd love if this worked but i seriously doubt. I will wait to see his analysis first and then comment on it specifically.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Alias
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1504
Location: East of the river Svartån
Joined: 11/19/04
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #37 - 02/15/11 at 10:37:43
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 02/15/11 at 09:50:26:
I don't for two reasons.

1) The title of the book doesn't combine well with "While it's possible to enter the solid" and "what seems to be the main line, the extremely boring"
2) "11 Dh5+! is probably the real test of Keres’ move order." Taylor gives one game and zero analysis.


1) The title is silly, but so is many other chess book titles, like eg "Sveshnikov Reloaded", the best opening book I've seen.

2) As Taylor prefers 10...Nf6 there is no need to spend too much space on 10...Bd6 11.Qh5+.
  

Don't check me with no lightweight stuff.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10551
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #36 - 02/15/11 at 09:50:26
Post Tools
I don't for two reasons.

1) The title of the book doesn't combine well with "While it's possible to enter the solid" and "what seems to be the main line, the extremely boring"
2) "11 Dh5+! is probably the real test of Keres’ move order." Taylor gives one game and zero analysis.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
tafl
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 380
Location: Norway
Joined: 05/27/05
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #35 - 02/15/11 at 08:15:33
Post Tools
There are now pdf extracts at Everyman's website http://www.everymanchess.com/chess/books/Slay_the_Spanish%21.

I like what I see. It seems Taylor makes the most of the variation's greatest strength - its flexibility.
  

A computer once beat me at chess but it was no match for me at kick boxing - Emo Philips
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10551
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #34 - 02/09/11 at 17:06:03
Post Tools
Jay wrote on 02/09/11 at 03:58:33:
Anyone who has seen Home Improvement would catch the reference.

I haven't. Even if it has been on Dutch and/or Surinamese TV I haven't. I hardly watch sitcoms as I think them a waste of time. I rather waste my time at Chesspub.
So I agree with Stigma - be a bit careful with what you write. I thought of a ghostwriter as well.
Still I don't know what you meant, but don't bother. I am not really interested.

Jay wrote on 02/09/11 at 14:35:28:
Home Improvement's Tim Allen is Buzz Lightyear from the Toy Story movies.  Surely those received an international release.

I only know Toy Story from Donald Duck advertisements.

Jay wrote on 02/09/11 at 14:35:28:
And Bob is your uncle.

Amazing! How do you know that I indeed have an uncle called Bob?
Anyhow, it beats like a pincer on a pig.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jay
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 212
Location: USA
Joined: 04/18/09
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #33 - 02/09/11 at 14:35:28
Post Tools
Home Improvement's Tim Allen is Buzz Lightyear from the Toy Story movies.  Surely those received an international release.  Also really funny with him is Galaxy Quest, but you might have to love (maybe hate) campy Sci-Fi to appreciate it.

Stigma wrote on 02/09/11 at 04:07:37:
I've never even heard of "Home Improvement"; and I don't know which country it's from. The USA? The UK? Bangladesh?

OK, Wikipedia tells me it's an american sitcom that aired from 1991 to 1999. Probably never even aired in my country... Not everybody on here is from the states, you know.


Yeah, Home Improvement was definitely an American reference, but what can I say?  I am an American.  And Bob is your uncle.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob's_your_uncle

I tend to assume most chess players on an English language site are probably not American.  It just really is not all that popular over here.  If I was in New York, I could find many good games, but in Texas one has to be in a major city.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Fromper
Senior Member
****
Offline


GrandPatzer

Posts: 377
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Joined: 03/12/10
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #32 - 02/09/11 at 06:25:38
Post Tools
I am from the USA, and I didn't get the reference until it was pointed out. I've seen the show a couple of times, but I was never a huge fan, and I forgot the character names.
  

GrandPatzer!!!

1777 peak USCF rating - currently 1620 from coming back rusty
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3171
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #31 - 02/09/11 at 04:07:37
Post Tools
I've never even heard of "Home Improvement"; and I don't know which country it's from. The USA? The UK? Bangladesh?

OK, Wikipedia tells me it's an american sitcom that aired from 1991 to 1999. Probably never even aired in my country... Not everybody on here is from the states, you know.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jay
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 212
Location: USA
Joined: 04/18/09
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #30 - 02/09/11 at 03:58:33
Post Tools
Stigma wrote on 02/08/11 at 20:49:54:
I've never heard of Al Boreland. I thought you were suggesting that Taylor used a ghost writer! Be careful what you write...

Anyone who has seen Home Improvement would catch the reference.  Tim Allen plays Tim "the Toolman" Taylor who runs a cable repair show and is always getting injured and whose assistant Al Boreland is the competent one who does all the work.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #29 - 02/09/11 at 02:22:37
Post Tools
Jay wrote on 02/08/11 at 20:35:08:
Jay wrote on 02/07/11 at 15:02:30:
But Al Boreland will do most of the work.


That's the problem with references to Home Improvement.  Really not that funny.


I enjoyed it, but was too lazy to reply. Grin
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3171
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #28 - 02/08/11 at 20:49:54
Post Tools
I've never heard of Al Boreland. I thought you were suggesting that Taylor used a ghost writer! Be careful what you write...
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jay
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 212
Location: USA
Joined: 04/18/09
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #27 - 02/08/11 at 20:35:08
Post Tools
Jay wrote on 02/07/11 at 15:02:30:
But Al Boreland will do most of the work.


That's the problem with references to Home Improvement.  Really not that funny.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jay
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 212
Location: USA
Joined: 04/18/09
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #26 - 02/07/11 at 15:02:30
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 11/09/09 at 14:43:20:
Bibs wrote on 11/09/09 at 14:16:34:
Might have been interesting but look who is writing it.

Expect something half-baked with lots of references to his wife.

Pity.


In fairness to Taylor, in spite of some aspects of his writing that are annoying, the chess in his works is not absolute crap.  Are his works so far very good?  No, but they aren't crap.  My opinion.

But Al Boreland will do most of the work.

I think though that I will have to pick it up.  It's either this or one of the Gambiteer books unless someone here can recommend a worthwhile work on the Schliemann which I want to pick up for some club games.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #25 - 11/09/09 at 14:43:20
Post Tools
Bibs wrote on 11/09/09 at 14:16:34:
Might have been interesting but look who is writing it.

Expect something half-baked with lots of references to his wife.

Pity.


In fairness to Taylor, in spite of some aspects of his writing that are annoying, the chess in his works is not absolute crap.  Are his works so far very good?  No, but they aren't crap.  My opinion.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bibs
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 2196
Joined: 10/24/06
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #24 - 11/09/09 at 14:16:34
Post Tools
Might have been interesting but look who is writing it.

Expect something half-baked with lots of references to his wife.

Pity.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Michael Ayton
God Member
*****
Offline


‘You’re never alone with
a doppelgänger.’

Posts: 1866
Location: durham
Joined: 04/19/03
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #23 - 11/09/09 at 12:00:58
Post Tools
There's been loads of interesting coverage on the Forum of the Modern Steinitz, most of it started by me! Grin These threads might be of interest:

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1205281807/8#8

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1205346205/14#14

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1138105012/0

At the end of the first of these a line is discussed which might be critical in relation to TopNotch's argument that the Modern Steinitz isn't so great on account of a line of Leko's (see the thread). Toppy said he'd come back about this but never did. Wink Will the book cover this stuff, I wonder? ...

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
tracke
Senior Member
****
Offline


Introite tam etiam ibi
dei sunt

Posts: 431
Location: Kiel (GER)
Joined: 09/21/04
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #22 - 11/09/09 at 11:30:01
Post Tools
There´s more information now at www.everymanchess.com (direct link to book does not work?!)

Hmm, the Modern Steinitz. Certainly not the most forcing way to slay the Ruy Lopez. But, on the other hand, for sure an important and interesting system with solid main lines and sharp side lines that deserves a new coverage. I´m interested.

tracke  Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #21 - 08/07/09 at 13:20:12
Post Tools
Bibs wrote on 08/06/09 at 23:41:23:
It's a weather report from 1588.


Yes, it reminds me of a Royal Navy recruiting handbill from the Napoleonic era that I saw in a book, appealing to "All Loyal English Tars Who HATE the French and D--N the Pope."
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
lg
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 564
Location: Lisbon
Joined: 04/18/05
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #20 - 08/07/09 at 13:03:54
Post Tools
Well, my hope is that besides the Miles he would also suggest an off-beat line like the Nb6 line, for instance.

About the spanish, I am surprised why everyman has two books on
the Black side and within one year.
"Slaying the Spanish" appears to be a very "unchess" name.
But I think this is tipical of everyman.

Quality books appears to have more conservative names. Recently I saw a book on ther QG by Lars Schandorf which has a quite
normal title but could retitled (correctly, in my opinion) as
"attacking in th QG".
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #19 - 08/07/09 at 12:30:04
Post Tools
Roger Williamson wrote on 08/06/09 at 22:39:34:
You're assuming it's a chess book, and not a racist tract.


Yes, how about, Subjugate the French?

At lg:  No, I had not actually checked on this work at all.  I should do so.  Thanks for the information.  It'll be interesting to see what he recommends against the Modern.  Miles, I would suppose.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
lg
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 564
Location: Lisbon
Joined: 04/18/05
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #18 - 08/07/09 at 11:07:36
Post Tools
Markovich

The Alekhine book by Tim Taylor still appears to be on schedulle.

The period of time between publication of the Budapest (by Tim taylor as well) and of the Alekhine is nearly the same as the period of time between publication
of Slaying the spannish and of the Alekhine.
Thus, I think that this appears to be an advertisement for Taylor's
book after the one by Alekhine.
By the way, in Amazon.co.uk a few other books by everyman
are schedulle for the same time.

By the way, follwoing your suggestion in another thread of
another opening, "Defanging the Vorozhnev" might be a suitable addition for the previous list of "new titles" for openings in chess.

Have you noticed the similarities between "Pirc Alert" and "Alekhine Alert"?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bibs
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 2196
Joined: 10/24/06
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #17 - 08/06/09 at 23:41:23
Post Tools
It's a weather report from 1588.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Roger Williamson
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 114
Joined: 09/26/08
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #16 - 08/06/09 at 22:39:34
Post Tools
You're assuming it's a chess book, and not a racist tract.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #15 - 08/06/09 at 20:28:25
Post Tools
I agree.  Any more posts using intransitive verbs in an transitive sense will be summarily deleted.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TonyRo
God Member
*****
Offline


I'm gonna crack your skull!

Posts: 1773
Location: Cleveland, OH
Joined: 11/26/07
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #14 - 08/06/09 at 19:19:53
Post Tools
I haven't been able to find this book. Can anyone hunt this book down and see if there's a description? What variation are we talking about here?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Antillian
God Member
*****
Offline


Brilliance without dazzle!

Posts: 1753
Joined: 01/05/03
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #13 - 08/06/09 at 18:40:16
Post Tools
Is "Fornicate the French" an euphemism?  Shocked

Moderator!!!!!
  

"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TonyRo
God Member
*****
Offline


I'm gonna crack your skull!

Posts: 1773
Location: Cleveland, OH
Joined: 11/26/07
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #12 - 08/06/09 at 18:25:49
Post Tools
I really want to write Kidney-Punching the King's Gambit. That's hilarious!  Grin
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JEH
God Member
*****
Offline


"Football is like Chess,
only without the dice."

Posts: 1456
Location: Reading
Joined: 09/22/05
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #11 - 08/06/09 at 18:16:09
Post Tools
The Hand wrote on 08/06/09 at 17:37:35:
Slaughter the Sicilians


Slaughter is not enough, I want to SMASH it, now if only...
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Hand
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 55
Joined: 01/02/09
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #10 - 08/06/09 at 17:37:35
Post Tools
TicklyTim wrote on 08/06/09 at 11:35:22:
tracke wrote on 08/05/09 at 13:22:32:
Slay the Spanish!



Strikes me as an odd name for a book.
Slaying the Dragon makes sense, but the Spanish?! A bit harsh.
What next? Slay the Hedgehog!! (poor thing).


Slay the Spanish
Kill the Kid

After the success of these titles, I believe we have paved the way for some new upcoming titles:

Slaughter the Sicilians
Fornicate the French
Dealing Death to the Dutch
Garrote the Grunfeld
Choking-the-Life out of the Caro-Kann
Kidney-Punching the King's Gambit




  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JEH
God Member
*****
Offline


"Football is like Chess,
only without the dice."

Posts: 1456
Location: Reading
Joined: 09/22/05
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #9 - 08/06/09 at 14:51:21
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 08/06/09 at 13:28:37:
That link is broken.


Strange, the link seemed to have shoved an extra http in there  Roll Eyes


  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #8 - 08/06/09 at 13:28:37
Post Tools
That link is broken.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JEH
God Member
*****
Offline


"Football is like Chess,
only without the dice."

Posts: 1456
Location: Reading
Joined: 09/22/05
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #7 - 08/06/09 at 12:31:24
Post Tools
TicklyTim wrote on 08/06/09 at 11:35:22:
What next? Slay the Hedgehog!! (poor thing).


It's already been written



There does seem to be a bit of a glut of anti-Lopez books, so it needs something to stand out, as of course we only buy books based on their title  Wink
« Last Edit: 08/06/09 at 14:53:17 by JEH »  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ender
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 408
Joined: 05/22/06
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #6 - 08/06/09 at 12:22:27
Post Tools
Is this book about Schliemann?
  

2200. Amateur!
Back to top
ICQ  
IP Logged
 
TicklyTim
Senior Member
****
Offline


can I take that back,
please...

Posts: 274
Location: England
Joined: 05/29/09
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #5 - 08/06/09 at 11:35:22
Post Tools
tracke wrote on 08/05/09 at 13:22:32:
Slay the Spanish!



Strikes me as an odd name for a book.
Slaying the Dragon makes sense, but the Spanish?! A bit harsh.
What next? Slay the Hedgehog!! (poor thing).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
boki
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 181
Joined: 04/02/08
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #4 - 08/06/09 at 11:28:16
Post Tools
Hn´mm, another black reperoir e book would be quite difficult to sell, there are already several good books (lMarin,Pavlovic, etc).
And a white repertoire book I doubt is very usefull, as It is quite a difficult task to write about the main lines Taylor is doubtlessly a strong player , but I will prefer to wait for Aagards e4 repertoire series.
Not to excited by this forthcoming book Undecided Undecided
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #3 - 08/05/09 at 15:41:56
Post Tools
Rizzitano's Beating 1.d4 had a similarly grandiose title, but it was a pretty good book.  I suspect that editors more than authors influence these things.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TonyRo
God Member
*****
Offline


I'm gonna crack your skull!

Posts: 1773
Location: Cleveland, OH
Joined: 11/26/07
Gender: Male
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #2 - 08/05/09 at 14:53:45
Post Tools
Book names like this kind of discourage me from buying the book. No one is ever going to Slay the Spanish. A more realistic title would be "Maybe equalize against the Spanish with an offbeat variation that one wouldn't expect!"

Anyway, according to Everyman's website the Alekhine book is still on for January or February. According to Amazon Yelena Dembo is also writing a book on the Scotch which should be good, since she's something of an expert.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Slay the Spanish!
Reply #1 - 08/05/09 at 13:37:19
Post Tools
I thought that Taylor was supposed to be writing an Alekhine book.  Has that one been withdrawn, I wonder, or does he plan to write two at once?
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
tracke
Senior Member
****
Offline


Introite tam etiam ibi
dei sunt

Posts: 431
Location: Kiel (GER)
Joined: 09/21/04
Gender: Male
Slay the Spanish!
08/05/09 at 13:22:32
Post Tools
Everyman has announced a new book
(acc. to amazon.de):

Slay the Spanish!

by Timothy Taylor
~192 pages, $25 / €19
forthcoming august2010

Probably another black repertoire book ?!
tracke  Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo