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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C41: Hanham Variation (Read 48264 times)
zoo
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Re: Hanham Variation
Reply #18 - 02/25/10 at 16:05:11
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as said before the variation is playable only after 6...0-0, so here ...Qd8 is forced.
It's interesting to see 10.b5"!" in the previous post, at the moment is it considered best over 10...b6 ? with ...b6 Black obtains more active pieces but gives one more pawn, while with ...b5 he spends more time eating the Knight, and chances increase for a favourable (for White) Rook vs B+N ending. The ending may provide equal chances but it's a killer when Black is uncomfortable with this setting.
  
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trandism
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Re: Hanham Variation
Reply #17 - 02/25/10 at 08:57:07
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Qg6 is indeed good when white sacs before black castles and before Ng5 is played..

Thus, Bxf7+ Kxf7, Ng5+ Kg8, Ne6 Qe8, Nxa8 Qg6

In the line 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nd7 5.Bc4 Be7 6.Ng5 0-0 7.Bf7 Rf7 8.Ne6 Qe8 9.Nc7 Qd8 10.Na8

as I already mentioned, Black plays 10...b5!

Na8 will be lost plus black will get a great attack
  
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Holbox
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Re: Hanham Variation
Reply #16 - 02/25/10 at 08:09:01
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MNb wrote on 02/24/10 at 20:13:53:
Holbox wrote on 02/24/10 at 10:08:37:
I liked to play in this way:

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nd7 5.Bc4 Be7 6.Ng5 0-0 7.Bf7 Rf7 8.Ne6 Qe8 9.Nc7 Qd8 10.Na8

With a somewhat non conventional and dynamic position. Who is better? Why? and How much? What do you think?


With all GM's (ao Euwe and Pachman) who have commented on this line I think Black is better after 9...Qg6 (iso the passive 9...Qd8). Na8 is lost, Black will within a few moves activate all light pieces while White struggles to find good squares for his rooks.


Too fast, read the post again Wink

It's a really difficult line to face OTB and black has to avoid many pitfalls because his uncoordinated army. I remember I was noticed about this line playing with black Cry.

  

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Re: Hanham Variation
Reply #15 - 02/25/10 at 05:00:32
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Holbox wrote on Yesterday at 10:08:37:
I liked to play in this way:

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nd7 5.Bc4 Be7 6.Ng5 0-0 7.Bf7 Rf7 8.Ne6 Qe8 9.Nc7 Qd8 10.Na8

With a somewhat non conventional and dynamic position. Who is better? Why? and How much? What do you think?


With all GM's (ao Euwe and Pachman) who have commented on this line I think Black is better after 9...Qg6 (iso the passive 9...Qd8). Na8 is lost, Black will within a few moves activate all light pieces while White struggles to find good squares for his rooks.

MnB the rook is on f7 so no Qg6 here. You may be confusing it with the line white sacrufices his bishop before black castles, where black rook would be on h8, and Qg6 is indeed very good for black.
  

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MNb
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Re: Hanham Variation
Reply #14 - 02/24/10 at 20:13:53
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Holbox wrote on 02/24/10 at 10:08:37:
I liked to play in this way:

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nd7 5.Bc4 Be7 6.Ng5 0-0 7.Bf7 Rf7 8.Ne6 Qe8 9.Nc7 Qd8 10.Na8

With a somewhat non conventional and dynamic position. Who is better? Why? and How much? What do you think?


With all GM's (ao Euwe and Pachman) who have commented on this line I think Black is better after 9...Qg6 (iso the passive 9...Qd8). Na8 is lost, Black will within a few moves activate all light pieces while White struggles to find good squares for his rooks.
  

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motörhead
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Re: Hanham Variation
Reply #13 - 02/24/10 at 17:04:12
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trandism wrote on 02/24/10 at 16:04:54:
The absolute main line is:
1.e4 d6,2. d4 Nf6, 3.Nc3 Nbd7, 4.Nf3 e5, 5.Bc4 Be7, 6.0-0 0-0, 7.Re1 c6, 8.a4 b6 and black plays b6,Bb7 while white prepares to play d5 in the most desirable circumstance.. The evaluation is a slight += but black usually manages to equalize if white's name isn't Anatoly Cheesy


I agree, but I think, after 1.e4 d6,2. d4 Nf6, 3.Nc3 Nbd7, 4.Nf3 e5, 5.Bc4 Be7, 6.0-0 0-0, 7.Re1 the better way is 7...a6. After 8.a4 b6 9.b3 (or 9.h3) 9...c6 it is only move ordering, but it avoids 7...c6 8.a4 b6 9.d5 which is a bit annoying. After 7...a6 8.a4 b6 the push 9.d5 doesn't hit a loose pawn c6 and the game can take a strategy like in the KID with somthing like 9...Ne8 with the idea g7-g6 and Ne8-g7 to follow.

So for white it seems best - as yet written here - to enter the via 7.a4 with a4-a5 in mind. That's quite annoying. After 7...a6 8.a5 chocks the flexibilitiy of black's queen's side. After 7...c6 white can play 8.Re1 or try 8.a5 or 8.Ba2 not diciding on the future placement of king's rook that early. May be d1 is a better place, or to stay on f1... I depends.

trandism wrote on 02/24/10 at 16:04:54:
The g4 gambit is not refuted by Bauer and I can't imagine any other book that could have its refutation in it.. I haven't seen the Shirov video but I suspect that the so called refutation leads to unclear/equal position and not to a black advantage.


That's what I have too. But wouldn't it be nice to hear the master's voice?
So again - and I know, I'm wrecking nerves - can anybody give some lines Shirov gives on his DVD to play 1.d4 d6 2.e4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nbd7 5.g4!? either black or white?
What's in short the best for both sides?

cheese
  

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trandism
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Re: Hanham Variation
Reply #12 - 02/24/10 at 16:04:54
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This defense used to be my main black weapon and I occasionally still use it. The Bauer ('Philidor Files') book is the best source I am aware of.. Also fun - but not so solid - are the recommendations given in the 'The Black Lion' book..

The absolute main line is:

1.e4 d6,2. d4 Nf6, 3.Nc3 Nbd7, 4.Nf3 e5, 5.Bc4 Be7, 6.0-0 0-0, 7.Re1 c6, 8.a4 b6 and black plays b6,Bb7 while white prepares to play d5 in the most desirable circumstance.. The evaluation is a slight += but black usually manages to equalize if white's name isn't Anatoly Cheesy

The g4 gambit is not refuted by Bauer and I can't imagine any other book that could have its refutation in it.. I haven't seen the Shirov video but I suspect that the so called refutation leads to unclear/equal position and not to a black advantage.

The f4 lines are very dangerous to the unprepared - black has to play some "only moves" to stay alive - see Bauer for more.

I used to avoid the f4 lines by playing e5 at the 3rd move before Nbd7. This has the disadvantage that it allows a transposition to an ending that visually looks very advantageous for white..

1.e4 d6, 2.d4 Nf6, 3. Nc3 e5, 4.de de, 5.Qxd8 Kxd8, 6.Bc4

when both 6.. Ke8

and 6... Be6, 7.Bxe6 fe6 and black will develop Bd6, Ke7 and start a queenside pawn storm

I prefer the latter (see Zurab Azmaiparashvili games and the Bauer book for more on this ending)

The Ng5-e6-c7-a8 line mentioned in this thread leads to a Black advantage after 10...b5! and white is in trouble - see the Bauer book

  
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chk
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Re: Hanham Variation
Reply #11 - 02/24/10 at 13:45:39
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motörhead wrote on 02/24/10 at 11:46:45:
I know all this. The first was quite deeply dealed with by Stefan Bücker in his coloum at chesscafe.com. He calls it the French Attack and dedicated 3 chapters to it. You may find it in chesscafe-archive (I hope...)


Oops, sorry I was actually suggesting this line to Markovich (OP). Moreover, what I meant with Black being prepared to play a Philidor, I meant if White is following Markovich's move order: 1. d4 d6 2. e4 Nf6 and now I suppose they will know their Philidor stuff.

Thanks for the info on 4. f4 - I did not know about this and will certainly look for these articles.

cheers  Cool
  

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Re: Hanham Variation
Reply #10 - 02/24/10 at 11:46:45
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chk wrote on 02/24/10 at 08:29:08:
If you want something different (I think Black will be aiming for a Philidor anyway so you won't catch him/her off-guard), you can try 4. f4:

1. d4 d6 2. e4 Nf6 3. Nc3 e5 4. f4 exd4 5. Qxd4 Be7 6. Be3 O-O 7. Nf3 c6 8. O-O-O

I like this system as I usually employ Qxd4 lines against the Philidor (if given the chance). Moreover, if Black is not careful with the move-order (i.e. plays ...e5 before ...Nf6) I prefer:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nf6 4. dxe5 Nxe4 5. Qd5 which is a good line for White.


I know all this. The first was quite deeply dealed with by Stefan Bücker in his coloum at chesscafe.com. He calls it the French Attack and dedicated 3 chapters to it. You may find it in chesscafe-archive (I hope...)

But back again: What is the refutation Shirov gives on his Philidor DVD to his own invention (that is the Shirov Gambit 1.d4 d6 2.e4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nbd7 5.g4!?) according to JEH?
Can anyone give me some of his lines?
I only know that it this gambit is a highly complex thing and that the g-file and the accelerated development give white plenty of play. Once there was a thread on that subject, don't known whether it is still online - one of the best I read here at that. Very insightful with quite a few participants being very engaged. Smiley
So to them it too would be interesting to see the refutation - if it exists.

cheese
  

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Bibs
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Re: Hanham Variation
Reply #9 - 02/24/10 at 11:19:01
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Holbox wrote on 02/24/10 at 10:08:37:
I liked to play in this way:

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nd7 5.Bc4 Be7 6.Ng5 0-0 7.Bf7 Rf7 8.Ne6 Qe8 9.Nc7 Qd8 10.Na8

With a somewhat non conventional and dynamic position. Who is better? Why? and How much? What do you think?


Plenty on this in Bauer's book.

Also see games of Murey as white.

Short answer: dunno, maybe black. Tricky to play.
  
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Holbox
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Re: Hanham Variation
Reply #8 - 02/24/10 at 10:08:37
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I liked to play in this way:

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nd7 5.Bc4 Be7 6.Ng5 0-0 7.Bf7 Rf7 8.Ne6 Qe8 9.Nc7 Qd8 10.Na8

With a somewhat non conventional and dynamic position. Who is better? Why? and How much? What do you think?
  

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Re: Hanham Variation
Reply #7 - 02/24/10 at 08:29:08
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If you want something different (I think Black will be aiming for a Philidor anyway so you won't catch him/her off-guard), you can try 4. f4:

1. d4 d6 2. e4 Nf6 3. Nc3 e5 4. f4 exd4 5. Qxd4 Be7 6. Be3 O-O 7. Nf3 c6 8. O-O-O

I like this system as I usually employ Qxd4 lines against the Philidor (if given the chance). Moreover, if Black is not careful with the move-order (i.e. plays ...e5 before ...Nf6) I prefer:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nf6 4. dxe5 Nxe4 5. Qd5 which is a good line for White.
  

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Re: Hanham Variation
Reply #6 - 02/23/10 at 23:12:09
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JEH wrote on 08/05/09 at 15:53:27:
I have the DVD on the Philidor by Shirov. It's aimed at the White player mainly, although useful prep for Black too.

The refutes his own g4 gambit on it.

He then recommends the positional play with the a4 restraint and a later d5.


Oh, I havn't heard of a refutation of Shirov's Gambit - and that by the master himself. How does tame his own invention? Do you have a few lines?
Thx
cheese
  

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Re: Hanham Variation
Reply #5 - 08/06/09 at 16:08:29
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CheckMate wrote on 08/06/09 at 15:55:40:
@ Markovich:

Do you own Tony Kosten's excellent "Winning with the Philidor"? It includes a chapter on the Hanham. Start there and extend Tony's analysis on your own. Also check the more recent "The Philidor Files".
Don't you think White should be able to prove a small advantage against the Hanham? It's a rather passive setup for Black after all.
I recall Tony stopped playing it when his opponents started to play his best recommendations for White.


Oh yes, I think that White should do well enough.  I just wanted some advice, in case I follow my idea of meeting 1.d4 d6 with 2.e4.  Thanks for your input.
  

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Re: Hanham Variation
Reply #4 - 08/06/09 at 15:55:40
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@ Markovich:

Do you own Tony Kosten's excellent "Winning with the Philidor"? It includes a chapter on the Hanham. Start there and extend Tony's analysis on your own. Also check the more recent "The Philidor Files".
Don't you think White should be able to prove a small advantage against the Hanham? It's a rather passive setup for Black after all.
I recall Tony stopped playing it when his opponents started to play his best recommendations for White.
  
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