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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Triangle issue (Read 29883 times)
dfan
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Re: Triangle issue
Reply #39 - 02/19/13 at 16:45:18
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Don't forget that you also have the option of going to the Tarrasch with 3...c5.
  
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MartinC
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Re: Triangle issue
Reply #38 - 02/19/13 at 16:27:10
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If you're 'attempting the triangle' then c6 is sort of the only option Smiley

More seriously get Scherbakov's most excellent book which covers all of the non triangle ideas from this move order in massive detail and decide if you like them or not.

For the 4 Bg5 thing below he prefers 4 .. Be7 which seems to be OK if a tiny fraction dull. 4 Qc2 gets a lot of detail.
  
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Sandman
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Re: Triangle issue
Reply #37 - 02/19/13 at 15:10:14
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When attempting the triangle after 1d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nf3 is it better to continue with c6 or switch to a ragozin with Nf6? I've looked at both but unsure if it is better to try to play both defenses or just stick to one and focus on the triangle.
  

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Re: Triangle issue
Reply #36 - 08/11/09 at 22:32:32
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I shall add 5.Bf4 as played by Tony the Great.
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1097632

Nikolic seems to have never heard about king safety though.
  
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Straggler
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Re: Triangle issue
Reply #35 - 08/11/09 at 20:51:54
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Markovich wrote on 08/11/09 at 12:54:50:
Also I do dislike 5...Qa5+, because after 6.Bd2 Qd8 7.e3, White is a tempo up in a Karpov-style Meran.

But is Bd2 such a useful move?

Do you not fancy 7.e3 Ne4 8.Bd3 f5, as in Hort-Schlosser, Baden-Baden 1992? This does at least try to punish White for postponing Nc3.

In "Play the Noteboom", van der Werf and van der Vorm say that 5...Qa5+ is the main alternative to 5...Nbd7 (which they don't seem to find very convincing, though it's their main line). They say Black was equal in Kholmov-Nei, Tbilisi 1966, after 5...Qa5+ 6.Bd2 Qd8 7.e3 Nbd7 8.Nc3 c5 9.cxd5 exd5 10.Be2 Be7 11.0-0 0-0. They also think 5...dxc4 is playable.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Triangle issue
Reply #34 - 08/11/09 at 19:54:13
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Papageno wrote on 08/11/09 at 14:50:19:
Thanks for pointing out that 4.Lg5 Bb4+ 5. Nc3! Nf6 leads to a Semi-Slav (or is it more of a Ragozin instead?) that could have reached by standard Anti-Meran move order (1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 c6  5. Bg5 Bb4). Unfortunately, the move 5... Bb4 seems so second class that GM Schandorff did not bother to discuss it in his Queen's Gambit Grandmaster Guide.

In addition, I think the very same could be said about 4.Bg5 Qb6. The position after 5.Qc2 Nd7 6.e3 Nf6 7.Nc3 again looks like a minor Semi-Slav line that could as well have been reached by standard Anti-Meran move order (1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 c6 5. Bg5 Qb6 6. Qc2) BTW, here again Schandorff didn't find it necessary to deal with the rare move 5... Qb6.

If Black really wanted to defend such positions there would be little sense in entering them by the triangle setup. Am I mistaken here?


Basically I think that's right.  Those funny QGD/Meran positions with Black's queen on b6 look decidedly suboptimal, notwithstanding that the statistics are good.  The question remains then, can the Triangle be essayed after 3.Nf3?
  

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Papageno
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Re: Triangle issue
Reply #33 - 08/11/09 at 14:50:19
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Thanks for pointing out that 4.Lg5 Bb4+ 5. Nc3! Nf6 leads to a Semi-Slav (or is it more of a Ragozin instead?) that could have reached by standard Anti-Meran move order (1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 c6  5. Bg5 Bb4). Unfortunately, the move 5... Bb4 seems so second class that GM Schandorff did not bother to discuss it in his Queen's Gambit Grandmaster Guide.

In addition, I think the very same could be said about 4.Bg5 Qb6. The position after 5.Qc2 Nd7 6.e3 Nf6 7.Nc3 again looks like a minor Semi-Slav line that could as well have been reached by standard Anti-Meran move order (1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 c6 5. Bg5 Qb6 6. Qc2) BTW, here again Schandorff didn't find it necessary to deal with the rare move 5... Qb6.

If Black really wanted to defend such positions there would be little sense in entering them by the triangle setup. Am I mistaken here?
  
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Markovich
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Re: Triangle issue
Reply #32 - 08/11/09 at 13:01:44
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LeeRoth wrote on 08/08/09 at 01:13:59:
After 4..Bb4 5.Nbd2 f6 6.a3!, Palliser notes that 6..Ba5 leaves the bishop misplaced when White begins to undermine the Black queenside with a4.  He does not, however, analyze 6..Ba5.  


I think that Palliser is simply wrong about that.  Since 7...dxc4 is strong after any retreat of White's bishop, White has to play 7.b4 immediately, when 7...fxg5 8.bxa5 Nf6 is very interesting and I believe at least adequate for Black.

I think that 5.Nbd2 is decidedly suboptimal and that 5.Nc3! should be played.  Then 5...Nf6 brings up a position that has occurred in many games, much more often by Black's playing 5...Bb4 in reply to 5.Bg5 in the standard Anti-Meran move order.  It's not very good for Black.  Black's moves besides 5...Nf6 have produced dismal results in my database, but entirely in low-level games.

So I think that Palliser is right that 4.Bg5 Bb4+ favors White, but for the wrong reason.

I now think that Black's best answer to 4.Bg5 is 4...Qb6.  There are just two high-level games in my database: Shalimov-Berezin, Kiev 2002 was a draw, while Black actually won in Eingorn-Gurevich, Graz 1995.  Both continued 5.Qc2 Nd7 6.e3 Nf6 7.Nc3, a position that has occurred in 26 games in my database, with an average score of 50%.

As for 4.Qc2, which is at least a good move, the critical test appears to be 4...dxc4 5.Qxc4 and now if 5...Nf6 6.Bg5, or if 5...b5 6.Qc2 Bb7 7.e4.  In the latter case I think that += is not exaggerated.  In the former, 6...h6 7.Bh4 b5 8.Qc2 Bb7 looks decent for Black, but White may be able to prove some advantage.  

If all this is right then 4.Qc2 may be a somewhat better move than 4.Bg5, but not necessarily one that is likely to produce much advantage.  So my latest thinking is that even against 3.Nf3, the Triangle is a good way to angle for a Meran.
  

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Markovich
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Re: Triangle issue
Reply #31 - 08/11/09 at 12:54:50
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Straggler wrote on 08/10/09 at 21:14:52:
Markovich wrote on 08/10/09 at 20:11:22:
But as for 4...Nf6 White has 5.Bg5 and 5.g3, neither of which is Meran-like.

And, against the Catalan, is it much of a problem that Black has already played ...c6?


Not if Black wants to play a particular sort of Closed Catalan.

Also I do dislike 5...Qa5+, because after 6.Bd2 Qd8 7.e3, White is a tempo up in a Karpov-style Meran.  6...Qc7 looks awkward to me, but I am unsure about it.  But in the slower Merans, I don't recall that Black is in any hurry to play ...Qc7.  There are some games in my data base, but since White exceeded Black by about 200 Elo in all of them, the results are meaningless.
  

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Straggler
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Re: Triangle issue
Reply #30 - 08/10/09 at 21:14:52
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Markovich wrote on 08/10/09 at 20:11:22:
But as for 4...Nf6 White has 5.Bg5 and 5.g3, neither of which is Meran-like.

True, but suppose Black is happy with Meran-like or Cambridge-Springs-like, as long as it isn't a Botvinnik or an Exchange QGD with ...Nbd7? Do you dislike 5.Bg5 Qa5+? On the rare occasions when this is played, most people seem to reply 6.Bd2, which is usually answered with 6...Qd8 (though I can't see anything wrong with 6...Qc7). And, against the Catalan, is it much of a problem that Black has already played ...c6?
  
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Re: Triangle issue
Reply #29 - 08/10/09 at 20:17:27
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My impression is that the Meran-like approach by Black is the most standard against both 5. Bg5 and 5. g3.
  
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Re: Triangle issue
Reply #28 - 08/10/09 at 20:11:22
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gewgaw wrote on 08/10/09 at 20:08:30:
Which line do you fear after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 e6 4.Qc2?
4. ...Nf6 and it´s quite likely to get a slav (antimeraner with Qc2;Karpov), which is all in all ok for black. Maybe clous like dc4 + b5/c5 are possible, maybe even 4. ...c5 immediately; compare the idea with --> SOS Nr. X? 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Qc2 c5!? - Loeffler


Actually I had thought of 4....c5 but I had assumed that the tempo was more important than the misplacement of White's queen.  Perhaps not.

But as for 4...Nf6 White has 5.Bg5 and 5.g3, neither of which is Meran-like.
  

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Re: Triangle issue
Reply #27 - 08/10/09 at 20:08:30
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Which line do you fear after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 e6 4.Qc2?
4. ...Nf6 and it´s quite likely to get a slav (antimeraner with Qc2;Karpov), which is all in all ok for black. Maybe clous like dc4 + b5/c5 are possible, maybe even 4. ...c5 immediately; compare the idea with --> SOS Nr. X? 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Qc2 c5!? - Loeffler
  

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Re: Triangle issue
Reply #26 - 08/10/09 at 20:05:36
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Well I may be wrong about White's Bf4 option.  But why not 4...Nc6 5.Bf4?

Is the queen early on c2 in any way a disadvantage after 4...Nf6 5.g3?  It looks a whole lot like a main line of the Closed Catalan.
  

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Re: Triangle issue
Reply #25 - 08/10/09 at 19:54:02
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Welcome, Straggler.

One pseudo-Cambridge Springs can happen via 4...Nf6 5. Bg5 (this and 5. g3 are the main moves here, as far as I know) Nbd7 6. Nbd2 Qa5 7. e3 Ne4.  An apparently significant game with that line is Dreev-Malakhov, New Delhi (active m/5) 2000, the course of which is considered equal by ECO and slightly better for White by Khalifman's repertoire book.
  
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