Paul Cumbers wrote on 05/01/14 at 20:44:15:


Perhaps the reference is to Beating Unusual Chess Openings (he did address the line there).

Glenn Snow wrote on 11/29/09 at 10:28:29:


I haven't looked at 7...Bd6 yet; after a cursory glance I prefer White after 8.Ng4 and also like the look of 8.Bg5, but I need to subject this to some proper analysis (unfortunately I don't have time this week). 

I know that I found a route to advantage for White against 3...Nd4, but I can't remember which line exactly for White. I know that 4.Ng1 and 4.Ne5 is annoying if Black doesn't want a draw, but I recall that there was some sort of 4.e3 Nf3 5.Qf3 g6 and g4 or d4 line that was quite tricky for Black to meet. 

I personally think that 3...Nf6 is probably Black's best move after 3.Nc3 but requires the most work; for this reason 3...e5 and 3...Nd4 are good practical choices.

Glenn Snow wrote on 11/29/09 at 09:57:43:


I don't believe Black can equalise in the 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 4.e3 Nf6 5.d4 (5.Be2 also offers good chances of a minute advantage but I prefer the direct approach) 5...cd4 6.ed4 e4 7.Ne5! (after other moves Black is completely fine). Palliser claims that Black should equalise, but I have found a few improvements over his analysis and prefer White. I agree that the 3.d4 cd4 4.Nd4 e6 and 4...Qb6 variations are quite difficult to prove an advantage against. 

Also, White can always play 3.g3 instead, which can lead to a Symmetrical English of sorts if White plays d4, or lead to a variation within 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.Nf3, depending on how White/Black follows up the fianchetto.

Interesting discussion here (and in other recent Flank opening threads on symmetrical English:- especially enjoy the various Markovich-Bpaulsen debates).

In response to Michael Ayton's original post, I thought that the disadvantage of 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6 4. g3 is that it commits White to playing the English Maroczy Bind with a bishop on g2, instead of the traditional Maroczy Bind with a bishop on e2. Specifically I think the positions after 4. g3 g6 5. d4 cxd4 6. Nxd4 Bg7 7. Bg2 0-0 8. 0-0 Nxd4 9. Qxd4 d6 10. Qd3 etc. are not as good for White as the positions after 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 g6 5. e4. At least you will find more GMs (e.g. Kasparov) willing to play Black in the former than the latter. 
Why this should be the case I don't know. Maybe the bishop on e2 stops b5, and often in the English Maroczy White ends up having to play e4 anyway and that blocks the bishop on g2.

So there is another argument for 4. d4, anyway the positions after 4. d4 cd4 5. Nd4 e6 6. g3 and 6. a3 are interesting enough for both sides. The fact is that there is no clean equaliser for Black (Carlsen-Dominguez in the Aronian/Sargissian 6. g3/ 9. Qa4 line is the closest it gets) and both sides tend to keep all the pieces on. I am not convinced that Markovich's 6 a3 Bc5 7 Nb3 Be7 is the best equaliser, see e.g. lines in Pritchett (in fact I think 6. a3 d5 is most problematic but its still a game after 7. cd5 ed5 8. g3 Bc5 9. Be3 and 9. Nxc6).  

Having said that I am learning 4. g3 for now  

Markovich wrote on 08/11/09 at 13:50:33:


I like the direct 6...d5 7.cd ed 8.g3 Bc5 9.Nc6 bc played by Mamedyarov recently rather than something that feels like a hegdehog or e6 Sicilian. Yet I don't want to play main line Tarrasch as black, and no Maroczy, white can squeeze it, although that would make for an easier repertoire perhaps. Dropped the Botvinnik system: too slow and bulky for me.

Thus I am trying to understand the sublties of 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.d4 cd 5.Nd4 e6. Since I play the NID for many years now, 3.d4 cd 4.Nd4 e6 with ...Bb4 coming as examined by Cox fits. So 4 or 5...e6 seems approapriate. I'm even thinking of dropping the Queens-Indian (somewhat 'hedgehog-ish') for the Blumenfeld Gambit, which can transpose to English lines. 

Against 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.g3, I've used 4...g6 5.Bg2 Bg7 6.00 00 7.d4 cd 8.Nd4 d6!? successfully so I'm sticking with it, trying to avoid another squeeze, although 9.Nc2 tries to continue limiting black's counterplay. Then I'll have to choose: 9...Be6 (most books) or 9...Qa5 ('!' -Mednis: 'How To Defeat A Superior Opponent'). 

Any repertoire suggestions, articles or books (...e6 in the symmetrical English, or otherwise) for my style? USCF 1986. I have McDonald's Starting Out: The English, and had The Dynamic English, and some Soltis (who doesn't?). Maybe that's enough. But some of you guys seems to have much more extensive 1.c4 libraries. 

Thanks.

Just noticed this game from 24th ICT Acropolis 2009  with annotations of GM Grivas via courtesy of Chessdom:

English      A33
Papadopoulos I. (2450)
Burtasova A. (2325)
24th ICT Acropolis 2009 (7.24)
Chalkida, 2009
1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. Nc3 Nc6 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 e6 6. g3 Bc5 7. e3 The main alternative is 7. Nb3 Bb4 (7... Qb6?! 8. Nxc5 Qxc5 9. e4 Qa5 10. Bg2 O-O 11. O-O  Damic,D-Rodic,M Bjelovar 2008) 8. Bd2 (8. Qc2?! d5 9. a3 dxc4 10. Nd2 Nd4  Sehrt,J-Hesse,K Hamburg 1975) 8... d5 9. cxd5 exd5 (9... Nxd5 10. Bg2 Nxc3 11. bxc3 Be7 12. O-O O-O 13. c4  Maninang,R-Sosonko,G Surakarta 1982) 10. Bg2 O-O 11. O-O Re8 12. a3 Bxc3 13. Bxc3 Ne4 14. Bd4 Bf5 15. Rc1 Qd7 16. Nc5 Nxc5 17. Rxc5 Be4 1/2-1/2 Lobron,E-Sosonko,G Rotterdam 1988. 7... O-O Or 7... Qb6 8. Nf3 O-O 9. Bg2 Ne7 10. O-O d5 11. Na4  Rodriguez,J-Cooper,G East Lansing 1992. 8. Bg2 Ne5 Also playable is 8... d5 9. cxd5 exd5 (9... Nxd5 10. Nxd5 exd5 11. Nb3 Bb4+ 12. Bd2 Bf5 13. O-O  Zieher,U-Lindemann,S Germany 1981) 10. O-O Bg4 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12. Qa4 Qd7 13. e4 Bh3 14. Bg5 Bxg2 15. Kxg2 Nxe4 16. Nxe4 dxe4 17. Qxe4  Sedlacek,J-Novak, P Plzen 2000. 9. b3 White might also try 9. Qe2!? : 9... d5 10. cxd5 exd5 11. h3 Re8 12. O-O Bxd4 13. exd4 Nc6 14. Be3 Be6 15. Rfe1 Qd7 16. g4 Ne4 17. Bxe4 dxe4 18. d5! Bxd5 19. Rad1  Nb4? (19... Ne7) 20. Rd4 1-0 Karlsson, L-Schneider,L Eksjo 1982. 9... d5 Also playable is 9... a6!? 10. O-O d5 11. cxd5 exd5 12. Nde2 Be6 13. Bb2 Ng6 14. Rc1  Stoettinger,F-Bahr,O Grieskirchen 1998 but Black is fond of a more complicated continuation. 10. cxd5 Bb4 11. Bd2 Nd3+ 12. Ke2 The other option was 12. Kf1 e5 13. Nde2 Ng4 14. Be1 Nxe1 15. Qxe1 Bf5  . 12... Ng4 Interesting is the immediate 12... e5 13. Ndb5 Ng4 14. Rf1! (14. f3? Ngf2  Isaev,J-Shariyazdanov,A Ekaterinburg 1997) 14... Nxh2 (14... Nc5!? ) 15. Rh1 Ng4 16. Be4 Ndxf2 17. Bxh7+= . 13. Rf1 e5 14. Nf3? 14. Ndb5! transposing to the previous analysis, was obligatory. 14... Bxc3?! 14... Bf5! 15. Ne1 Nb2 16. Qc1 Qa5!  . 15. Bxc3 e4 16. Ne1 (D) # 16... Ngxf2! A nice follow-up and of course a much better one than 16... Qxd5?! 17. Bxe4 Qxe4 18. Qxd3 Qxd3+ 19. Kxd3 Bd7 20. a4 Nxh2= . 17. Rxf2 Bg4+ 18. Bf3 Nxf2 19. Kxf2 Bxf3 20. Nxf3 exf3 21. Qxf3?! Black would be also on the top after 21. Qd4 f6 22. Kxf3 Rc8 23. e4 Re8 but she would face many more practical problems in order to convert her advantage into the full point. 21... Rc8 22. Bd4 Rc2+ 23. Kg1 Qd7! 24. g4?! Shortening the end. Obligatory was 24. e4 Qh3 25. Bf2 Rfc8 26. Qf4 h6  . 24... Qd6! 24... Qd6 White resigned due to 25. Qg3 Qxd5  . A cruel game! 0-1 [Efstratios Grivas] 

[quote author=nmga link=1249740331/0#0 date=1249740331]I have a ‘repertoire’ question relating to the position after 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6. Originally I was thinking, by playing 4 d4 rather than 4 g3 here, [......]But Davies says (p. 71) that 4 …cd 5 Nd4 e6 6 g3 Qb6! is not great for White, and so it indeed seems. White has other sixth moves, though, and I’m wondering why Davies doesn’t mention these. Has anyone experience/knowledge of [i]6 Ndb5[/i], [i]6 a3,[/i] [i]6 Bf4[/i] or [i]6 Bg5[/i], which are common tries (the first two anyway) and seem quite decent?
[/quote]

Thanks Michael for posting this. Got me to have a close look 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6 4 d4 cd 5 Nd4 e6 6 g3 Qb6. [background: I have been branching out from the Reti into English-type openings using Khalifman's OFWAKramnik.] But of course Khalifman doesn't really say much since he recommends 4 g3 as his repertoire and thinks 4 d4 (leading to 4...cxd4 5 Nxd4 e6) as advantageous for Black "permits Black to immediately open good prospects for his dark-squared bishop ont he b4 and c5 squares].

I then had a look at Nigel Povah's How to Play the English Opening who  considers this as under the English-Benoni structure and gives the game Stean-Spassky, Munich 1979 ([url]http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1129066)[/url]
It seems that White is doing fine (Povah at move 12: "White's development is more or less complete and he has emerged with a comfortable spatial advantage." and so on) and in fact Povah suggests that White missed a brilliant finish with 41 Qe7+! Bf7 (41... Qxe7 42 Rxe7+ Bf7 43 d7 flwd by Bxa7 and Bb6 +-) 42 Qxf6+!! Kxf6 43 Bd4#!

I also had a look at my database and collected the games with the position after 6... Qb6. The stats for white is only 50.7% if  Black plays 7...Ne5. Any other move and White scores >61%.

Re 7 Ndb5, White scores a healthy 57%. In Carlsen-Dominguez-Perez game, Carlsen played 9 Qa4. My collected games say that 9 e3 was played more frequently with 65% success rate. The top rated game is Anand-Leko, Hoogevens, Wijk aan Zee 1996 ([url]http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1018728[/url]). 

Upon further research, I discovered 9 Qa4 was first played in Aronian-Leko Linares 2008 where the game was drawn. This TN of Aronian's caused Leko to spend a massive 85 mins on his 9th move in reply. (see [url]http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1486033&kpage=9[/url] with lots of kibitzing)

Then what about Sargissian-Avrukh 2008 Dresden Olympiad 1-0? Avrukh deviated with 9...a6 and then only 10...g5 and Sargissian responded by taking g5-pawn instead of Knight on e5. [url]http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1523849[/url] 

And following Sargissian-Avrukh to some extent, Iturrizaga-Frank Holzke, Corus (Group C) 2009 (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1531151)

My points/queries:
1) Why is 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6 4 d4 cd 5 Nd4 e6 6 g3 Qb6 "bad" for White? It looks as though White scores well enough (except for 7 Ndb3 Ne5) especially if Povah is to be believed with his annotation son Stean-Spassky.

2) @ Markovich, what about 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6 4 d4 cd 5 Nd4 e6 6 g3 Qb6 7 Ndb5 Ne5 8 Bf4 and if 8...Nfg4, then 9 e3?

PS.
Re 6 Ndb5, Povah gives Korchnoi-Polugayevsky match in 1980 and says that this variation occur five times with draw the result each time.