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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Symmetrical English 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6 (Read 20858 times)
Paul Cumbers
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Re: Symmetrical English 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6
Reply #23 - 05/02/14 at 14:50:29
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kylemeister wrote on 05/01/14 at 20:54:58:
Paul Cumbers wrote on 05/01/14 at 20:44:15:
Can anyone tell me where can I find Palliser's analysis of this line? I thought it would be in Dangerous Weapons: Flank Openings, but looking at the chapter headings I can't see it...


Perhaps the reference is to Beating Unusual Chess Openings (he did address the line there).

Yes you're right... Thanks!  Cool
  
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Re: Symmetrical English 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6
Reply #22 - 05/01/14 at 20:54:58
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Paul Cumbers wrote on 05/01/14 at 20:44:15:
Can anyone tell me where can I find Palliser's analysis of this line? I thought it would be in Dangerous Weapons: Flank Openings, but looking at the chapter headings I can't see it...


Perhaps the reference is to Beating Unusual Chess Openings (he did address the line there).
  
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Re: Symmetrical English 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6
Reply #21 - 05/01/14 at 20:44:15
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TN wrote on 11/29/09 at 10:13:08:
I don't believe Black can equalise in the 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 4.e3 Nf6 5.d4 (5.Be2 also offers good chances of a minute advantage but I prefer the direct approach) 5...cd4 6.ed4 e4 7.Ne5! (after other moves Black is completely fine). Palliser claims that Black should equalise, but I have found a few improvements over his analysis and prefer White.

Can anyone tell me where can I find Palliser's analysis of this line? I thought it would be in Dangerous Weapons: Flank Openings, but looking at the chapter headings I can't see it...
  
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TN
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Re: Symmetrical English 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6
Reply #20 - 11/29/09 at 11:28:43
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Glenn Snow wrote on 11/29/09 at 10:28:29:
TN wrote:
Quote:
I don't believe Black can equalise in the 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 4.e3 Nf6 5.d4 (5.Be2 also offers good chances of a minute advantage but I prefer the direct approach) 5...cd4 6.ed4 e4 7.Ne5! (after other moves Black is completely fine). Palliser claims that Black should equalise, but I have found a few improvements over his analysis and prefer White.


I may well look more into this variation with 7.Ne5! since it's definitely interesting.  Have you looked into 7...Bd6!? here too besides the main line of 7...Bb4? (at least I think it's the old main line.  Another problem that maybe you've solved too is the interesting 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nd4 variation, but at least White can choose some interesting options here too. 


I haven't looked at 7...Bd6 yet; after a cursory glance I prefer White after 8.Ng4 and also like the look of 8.Bg5, but I need to subject this to some proper analysis (unfortunately I don't have time this week).

I know that I found a route to advantage for White against 3...Nd4, but I can't remember which line exactly for White. I know that 4.Ng1 and 4.Ne5 is annoying if Black doesn't want a draw, but I recall that there was some sort of 4.e3 Nf3 5.Qf3 g6 and g4 or d4 line that was quite tricky for Black to meet.

I personally think that 3...Nf6 is probably Black's best move after 3.Nc3 but requires the most work; for this reason 3...e5 and 3...Nd4 are good practical choices.
  

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Re: Symmetrical English 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6
Reply #19 - 11/29/09 at 10:28:29
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TN wrote:
Quote:
I don't believe Black can equalise in the 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 4.e3 Nf6 5.d4 (5.Be2 also offers good chances of a minute advantage but I prefer the direct approach) 5...cd4 6.ed4 e4 7.Ne5! (after other moves Black is completely fine). Palliser claims that Black should equalise, but I have found a few improvements over his analysis and prefer White.


I may well look more into this variation with 7.Ne5! since it's definitely interesting.  Have you looked into 7...Bd6!? here too besides the main line of 7...Bb4? (at least I think it's the old main line.  Another problem that maybe you've solved too is the interesting 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nd4 variation, but at least White can choose some interesting options here too.
  
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Re: Symmetrical English 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6
Reply #18 - 11/29/09 at 10:13:08
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Glenn Snow wrote on 11/29/09 at 09:57:43:
I've also been looking at the English lately from White's viewpoint and find the move order 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 even more problematic than 2...Nf6.  As mentioned earlier in the thread 3.Nc3 can be met adequately by 3...e5 and against 3.d4, Black not only play 3...cxd4 4.Nxd4 e6 (4...Qb6) but also 4...e5!? as analyzed by Palliser in Dangerous Weapons: Flank Openings.  I've only just started looking at this but I may want to play it from the Black side!


I don't believe Black can equalise in the 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 4.e3 Nf6 5.d4 (5.Be2 also offers good chances of a minute advantage but I prefer the direct approach) 5...cd4 6.ed4 e4 7.Ne5! (after other moves Black is completely fine). Palliser claims that Black should equalise, but I have found a few improvements over his analysis and prefer White. I agree that the 3.d4 cd4 4.Nd4 e6 and 4...Qb6 variations are quite difficult to prove an advantage against.

Also, White can always play 3.g3 instead, which can lead to a Symmetrical English of sorts if White plays d4, or lead to a variation within 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.Nf3, depending on how White/Black follows up the fianchetto.
  

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Re: Symmetrical English 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6
Reply #17 - 11/29/09 at 09:57:43
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I've also been looking at the English lately from White's viewpoint and find the move order 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 even more problematic than 2...Nf6.  As mentioned earlier in the thread 3.Nc3 can be met adequately by 3...e5 and against 3.d4, Black not only play 3...cxd4 4.Nxd4 e6 (4...Qb6) but also 4...e5!? as analyzed by Palliser in Dangerous Weapons: Flank Openings.  I've only just started looking at this but I may want to play it from the Black side!
  
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Re: Symmetrical English 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6
Reply #16 - 09/24/09 at 23:50:35
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Interesting discussion here (and in other recent Flank opening threads on symmetrical English:- especially enjoy the various Markovich-Bpaulsen debates).

In response to Michael Ayton's original post, I thought that the disadvantage of 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6 4. g3 is that it commits White to playing the English Maroczy Bind with a bishop on g2, instead of the traditional Maroczy Bind with a bishop on e2. Specifically I think the positions after 4. g3 g6 5. d4 cxd4 6. Nxd4 Bg7 7. Bg2 0-0 8. 0-0 Nxd4 9. Qxd4 d6 10. Qd3 etc. are not as good for White as the positions after 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 g6 5. e4. At least you will find more GMs (e.g. Kasparov) willing to play Black in the former than the latter.
Why this should be the case I don't know. Maybe the bishop on e2 stops b5, and often in the English Maroczy White ends up having to play e4 anyway and that blocks the bishop on g2.

So there is another argument for 4. d4, anyway the positions after 4. d4 cd4 5. Nd4 e6 6. g3 and 6. a3 are interesting enough for both sides. The fact is that there is no clean equaliser for Black (Carlsen-Dominguez in the Aronian/Sargissian 6. g3/ 9. Qa4 line is the closest it gets) and both sides tend to keep all the pieces on. I am not convinced that Markovich's 6 a3 Bc5 7 Nb3 Be7 is the best equaliser, see e.g. lines in Pritchett (in fact I think 6. a3 d5 is most problematic but its still a game after 7. cd5 ed5 8. g3 Bc5 9. Be3 and 9. Nxc6).  

Having said that I am learning 4. g3 for now  Wink
  
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Re: Symmetrical English 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6
Reply #15 - 09/14/09 at 09:20:08
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It's all a move-order game in the Symmetrical English, and the piece placement is critical in knowing how to conduct each side. If you remember certain things then it's very easy.

The key here is that white's Nc3 is prematurely committed after 4. d4 (as compared to the analagous 1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 when 5. g3 takes advantage of white's N still being b1) and finds itself an early target in a lot of critical lines. It also makes it harder to defend the Pc4 in some scenarios, too.

4. g3 is the only way to fight for an edge in the Symmetrical 4 Knights, and there's a lot of theory there. It's not the most exciting stuff, either - a lot of += endings that may, or may not be enough to win against precise defense.

Uruk - stow the sarcasm. White has to be precise to prove an advantage, much like in every other opening. It's not a forced win, it merely results in a whole lot of += middlegames/endings, that aren't hard to obtain so long as white is aware of the move-order intricacies.

I'm game if people want to take certain variations deeper. I'll just note now I have no interest in supporting the white side of 4. d4 in the Symmetrical 4 Knights, or anything other than 3. d4 after 1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 since I've got nothing against 3. Nc3 e5 worth mentioning.
  

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Re: Symmetrical English 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6
Reply #14 - 08/20/09 at 20:08:32
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Markovich wrote on 08/11/09 at 13:50:33:
Well since the partisans of the white pieces haven't spoken, I will say that I think the most critcal tries after 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e6 are 6.g3 Qb6 7.Ndb5 and the immediate 6.Nbd5.  Personally I don't think 6.a3 is so very impressive, for example 6...Bc5 7.Nb3 Be7.


I like the direct 6...d5 7.cd ed 8.g3 Bc5 9.Nc6 bc played by Mamedyarov recently rather than something that feels like a hegdehog or e6 Sicilian. Yet I don't want to play main line Tarrasch as black, and no Maroczy, white can squeeze it, although that would make for an easier repertoire perhaps. Dropped the Botvinnik system: too slow and bulky for me.

Thus I am trying to understand the sublties of 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.d4 cd 5.Nd4 e6. Since I play the NID for many years now, 3.d4 cd 4.Nd4 e6 with ...Bb4 coming as examined by Cox fits. So 4 or 5...e6 seems approapriate. I'm even thinking of dropping the Queens-Indian (somewhat 'hedgehog-ish') for the Blumenfeld Gambit, which can transpose to English lines.

Against 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.g3, I've used 4...g6 5.Bg2 Bg7 6.00 00 7.d4 cd 8.Nd4 d6!? successfully so I'm sticking with it, trying to avoid another squeeze, although 9.Nc2 tries to continue limiting black's counterplay. Then I'll have to choose: 9...Be6 (most books) or 9...Qa5 ('!' -Mednis: 'How To Defeat A Superior Opponent').

Any repertoire suggestions, articles or books (...e6 in the symmetrical English, or otherwise) for my style? USCF 1986. I have McDonald's Starting Out: The English, and had The Dynamic English, and some Soltis (who doesn't?). Maybe that's enough. But some of you guys seems to have much more extensive 1.c4 libraries.

Thanks.
  
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Re: Symmetrical English 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6
Reply #13 - 08/17/09 at 13:00:45
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kylemeister wrote on 08/15/09 at 18:34:41:
It's my impression that this 4. d4 stuff has basically long registered on the theory-meter as equal/unclear with best play, while 4. g3 is something like flickering between = and +=.  Regarding 7. Ndb5 Ne5 8. Bf4 Nfg4 9. e3, several encyclopedias give the course of (e.g.) L. Hansen-C. Hansen, Denmark (ch) 2000 as equal.  Such books think Spassky should have taken on c3 sooner than he did.  There was an article on 9. Qa4 by Alexey Kuzmin in the Yearbook a few months ago; he basically said that he could not come to any conclusions about it, but he thinks attempts by Black to avoid it are dubious.


There is tendency these days for Black to arrange to begin with 2...Nc6, and then with three knights out, play 3...e5.  That way, if White wants to get d4 in, he has to do it on move three (assuming indeed that he played 2.Nf3).  (Well of course, White can insist on d4 with 4.e3 and so forth, but those lines are both interesting and adequate for Black.)  Against the early g3 he often plays a Botvinnik set-up.

Anyway, I think that one of the problems with 1...Nf6 in answer to 1.Nf3, assuming that Black will play a Symmetrical, is that this piece is committed too early.
  

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Re: Symmetrical English 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6
Reply #12 - 08/17/09 at 11:45:52
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Just noticed this game from 24th ICT Acropolis 2009  with annotations of GM Grivas via courtesy of Chessdom:

English      A33
Papadopoulos I. (2450)
Burtasova A. (2325)
24th ICT Acropolis 2009 (7.24)
Chalkida, 2009
1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. Nc3 Nc6 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 e6 6. g3 Bc5 7. e3 The main alternative is 7. Nb3 Bb4 (7... Qb6?! 8. Nxc5 Qxc5 9. e4 Qa5 10. Bg2 O-O 11. O-O  Damic,D-Rodic,M Bjelovar 2008) 8. Bd2 (8. Qc2?! d5 9. a3 dxc4 10. Nd2 Nd4  Sehrt,J-Hesse,K Hamburg 1975) 8... d5 9. cxd5 exd5 (9... Nxd5 10. Bg2 Nxc3 11. bxc3 Be7 12. O-O O-O 13. c4  Maninang,R-Sosonko,G Surakarta 1982) 10. Bg2 O-O 11. O-O Re8 12. a3 Bxc3 13. Bxc3 Ne4 14. Bd4 Bf5 15. Rc1 Qd7 16. Nc5 Nxc5 17. Rxc5 Be4 1/2-1/2 Lobron,E-Sosonko,G Rotterdam 1988. 7... O-O Or 7... Qb6 8. Nf3 O-O 9. Bg2 Ne7 10. O-O d5 11. Na4  Rodriguez,J-Cooper,G East Lansing 1992. 8. Bg2 Ne5 Also playable is 8... d5 9. cxd5 exd5 (9... Nxd5 10. Nxd5 exd5 11. Nb3 Bb4+ 12. Bd2 Bf5 13. O-O  Zieher,U-Lindemann,S Germany 1981) 10. O-O Bg4 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12. Qa4 Qd7 13. e4 Bh3 14. Bg5 Bxg2 15. Kxg2 Nxe4 16. Nxe4 dxe4 17. Qxe4  Sedlacek,J-Novak, P Plzen 2000. 9. b3 White might also try 9. Qe2!? : 9... d5 10. cxd5 exd5 11. h3 Re8 12. O-O Bxd4 13. exd4 Nc6 14. Be3 Be6 15. Rfe1 Qd7 16. g4 Ne4 17. Bxe4 dxe4 18. d5! Bxd5 19. Rad1  Nb4? (19... Ne7) 20. Rd4 1-0 Karlsson, L-Schneider,L Eksjo 1982. 9... d5 Also playable is 9... a6!? 10. O-O d5 11. cxd5 exd5 12. Nde2 Be6 13. Bb2 Ng6 14. Rc1  Stoettinger,F-Bahr,O Grieskirchen 1998 but Black is fond of a more complicated continuation. 10. cxd5 Bb4 11. Bd2 Nd3+ 12. Ke2 The other option was 12. Kf1 e5 13. Nde2 Ng4 14. Be1 Nxe1 15. Qxe1 Bf5  . 12... Ng4 Interesting is the immediate 12... e5 13. Ndb5 Ng4 14. Rf1! (14. f3? Ngf2  Isaev,J-Shariyazdanov,A Ekaterinburg 1997) 14... Nxh2 (14... Nc5!? ) 15. Rh1 Ng4 16. Be4 Ndxf2 17. Bxh7+= . 13. Rf1 e5 14. Nf3? 14. Ndb5! transposing to the previous analysis, was obligatory. 14... Bxc3?! 14... Bf5! 15. Ne1 Nb2 16. Qc1 Qa5!  . 15. Bxc3 e4 16. Ne1 (D) # 16... Ngxf2! A nice follow-up and of course a much better one than 16... Qxd5?! 17. Bxe4 Qxe4 18. Qxd3 Qxd3+ 19. Kxd3 Bd7 20. a4 Nxh2= . 17. Rxf2 Bg4+ 18. Bf3 Nxf2 19. Kxf2 Bxf3 20. Nxf3 exf3 21. Qxf3?! Black would be also on the top after 21. Qd4 f6 22. Kxf3 Rc8 23. e4 Re8 but she would face many more practical problems in order to convert her advantage into the full point. 21... Rc8 22. Bd4 Rc2+ 23. Kg1 Qd7! 24. g4?! Shortening the end. Obligatory was 24. e4 Qh3 25. Bf2 Rfc8 26. Qf4 h6  . 24... Qd6! 24... Qd6 White resigned due to 25. Qg3 Qxd5  . A cruel game! 0-1 [Efstratios Grivas]
  

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Re: Symmetrical English 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6
Reply #11 - 08/15/09 at 18:34:41
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It's my impression that this 4. d4 stuff has basically long registered on the theory-meter as equal/unclear with best play, while 4. g3 is something like flickering between = and +=.  Regarding 7. Ndb5 Ne5 8. Bf4 Nfg4 9. e3, several encyclopedias give the course of (e.g.) L. Hansen-C. Hansen, Denmark (ch) 2000 as equal.  Such books think Spassky should have taken on c3 sooner than he did.  There was an article on 9. Qa4 by Alexey Kuzmin in the Yearbook a few months ago; he basically said that he could not come to any conclusions about it, but he thinks attempts by Black to avoid it are dubious.
  
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Re: Symmetrical English 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6
Reply #10 - 08/15/09 at 17:41:44
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[quote author=nmga link=1249740331/0#0 date=1249740331]I have a ‘repertoire’ question relating to the position after 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6. Originally I was thinking, by playing 4 d4 rather than 4 g3 here, [......]But Davies says (p. 71) that 4 …cd 5 Nd4 e6 6 g3 Qb6! is not great for White, and so it indeed seems. White has other sixth moves, though, and I’m wondering why Davies doesn’t mention these. Has anyone experience/knowledge of [i]6 Ndb5[/i], [i]6 a3,[/i] [i]6 Bf4[/i] or [i]6 Bg5[/i], which are common tries (the first two anyway) and seem quite decent?
[/quote]

Thanks Michael for posting this. Got me to have a close look 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6 4 d4 cd 5 Nd4 e6 6 g3 Qb6. [background: I have been branching out from the Reti into English-type openings using Khalifman's OFWAKramnik.] But of course Khalifman doesn't really say much since he recommends 4 g3 as his repertoire and thinks 4 d4 (leading to 4...cxd4 5 Nxd4 e6) as advantageous for Black "permits Black to immediately open good prospects for his dark-squared bishop ont he b4 and c5 squares].

I then had a look at Nigel Povah's How to Play the English Opening who  considers this as under the English-Benoni structure and gives the game Stean-Spassky, Munich 1979 ([url]http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1129066)[/url]
It seems that White is doing fine (Povah at move 12: "White's development is more or less complete and he has emerged with a comfortable spatial advantage." and so on) and in fact Povah suggests that White missed a brilliant finish with 41 Qe7+! Bf7 (41... Qxe7 42 Rxe7+ Bf7 43 d7 flwd by Bxa7 and Bb6 +-) 42 Qxf6+!! Kxf6 43 Bd4#!

I also had a look at my database and collected the games with the position after 6... Qb6. The stats for white is only 50.7% if  Black plays 7...Ne5. Any other move and White scores >61%.

Re 7 Ndb5, White scores a healthy 57%. In Carlsen-Dominguez-Perez game, Carlsen played 9 Qa4. My collected games say that 9 e3 was played more frequently with 65% success rate. The top rated game is Anand-Leko, Hoogevens, Wijk aan Zee 1996 ([url]http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1018728[/url]).

Upon further research, I discovered 9 Qa4 was first played in Aronian-Leko Linares 2008 where the game was drawn. This TN of Aronian's caused Leko to spend a massive 85 mins on his 9th move in reply. (see [url]http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1486033&kpage=9[/url] with lots of kibitzing)

Then what about Sargissian-Avrukh 2008 Dresden Olympiad 1-0? Avrukh deviated with 9...a6 and then only 10...g5 and Sargissian responded by taking g5-pawn instead of Knight on e5. [url]http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1523849[/url]

And following Sargissian-Avrukh to some extent, Iturrizaga-Frank Holzke, Corus (Group C) 2009 (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1531151)

My points/queries:
1) Why is 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6 4 d4 cd 5 Nd4 e6 6 g3 Qb6 "bad" for White? It looks as though White scores well enough (except for 7 Ndb3 Ne5) especially if Povah is to be believed with his annotation son Stean-Spassky.

2) @ Markovich, what about 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6 4 d4 cd 5 Nd4 e6 6 g3 Qb6 7 Ndb5 Ne5 8 Bf4 and if 8...Nfg4, then 9 e3?

PS.
Re 6 Ndb5, Povah gives Korchnoi-Polugayevsky match in 1980 and says that this variation occur five times with draw the result each time.
  

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Re: Symmetrical English 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6
Reply #9 - 08/11/09 at 21:01:48
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On 6.Nb5 I remember an old game of Karpov, and indeed I found it:
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1068404

If the '84 Karpov can't win it...

6.a3 at least keeps some wood (its main virtue, I think).
  
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Re: Symmetrical English 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6
Reply #8 - 08/11/09 at 14:34:31
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Love those asterisks!
  
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Re: Symmetrical English 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6
Reply #7 - 08/11/09 at 14:32:39
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Well, I'm not a partisan exactly of either colour, but White scores quite well after 6 a3 Bc5 7 Nb3 Be7, though there's a huge incidence of draws. I don't yet know nearly enough about these positions to understand the subtleties of how the position after 8 e4 compares with similar Hedgehogs -- can anyone help here? Presumably the Nb3 is going to be rerouted (to d2?), so maybe one question is, how important is time in this position?

Whatever the truth, I'm sure this position offers damn good training for someone wanting to appreciate these structures! And at club level at least, I'm sure the player with the better appreciation will win ...
  
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Re: Symmetrical English 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6
Reply #6 - 08/11/09 at 13:50:33
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Well since the partisans of the white pieces haven't spoken, I will say that I think the most critcal tries after 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e6 are 6.g3 Qb6 7.Ndb5 and the immediate 6.Nbd5.  Personally I don't think 6.a3 is so very impressive, for example 6...Bc5 7.Nb3 Be7.
  

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Re: Symmetrical English 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6
Reply #5 - 08/10/09 at 14:20:50
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Uruk wrote on 08/10/09 at 05:17:33:
Indeed there was a nice short draw with 6.g3 in this year's Linares:
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1535816

I remember finding no alternatives that set the world on fire.

Maybe BPaulsen, who says the Symmetrical brings an "undoubted" advantage, could comment.


There is lot of theory on this line, which as you point out, the merits of which we've been debating on another thread.  We never got very specific, so maybe this is the place to do so.  It might be useful if the White partisans went first.

White is playing with a space advantage, but Black has the extra central pawn.
  

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Re: Symmetrical English 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6
Reply #4 - 08/10/09 at 14:19:48
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Wild game, Uruk -- thanks.

But I think I'd better admit to being a bit dopey at the moment!  Embarrassed For some reason I'd not looked at the the A33 stuff on ChessPublishing, where there are several exciting games with 6 a3!?. OK this may not 'set the world on fire' and objectively Black may well be OK, but it strikes me as a very interesting line if you like playing with a space advantage, and there are quite a few inspiring high-level games from which to draw ideas.
  
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Re: Symmetrical English 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6
Reply #3 - 08/10/09 at 05:17:33
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Indeed there was a nice short draw with 6.g3 in this year's Linares:
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1535816

I remember finding no alternatives that set the world on fire.

Maybe BPaulsen, who says the Symmetrical brings an "undoubted" advantage, could comment.
  
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Re: Symmetrical English 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6
Reply #2 - 08/09/09 at 23:20:01
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Sorry, kylemeister! Interested as we chessplayers all are in the psychology of an error, you must have wondered ‘What the …??’. The reason, I’m embarrassed to say, is just that I had games with 3 …Nc6 rather than 3 …e6 on my screen and, being in mad haste, confused the two positions – which is a useful reminder, I guess, that 4 e4 (and 4 e3) is possible after 3 …Nc6 too. But I’m still interested in those sixth-move alternatives …
  
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Re: Symmetrical English 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6
Reply #1 - 08/08/09 at 16:04:48
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I think it would be uncommon for a normal Maroczy position to be reached after 3...e6 4. e4.  It's not happening after 4...Nc6 4. d4 cd 5. Nxd4 Bb4 or 4...Nc6 5. Be2 d5, for example.
  
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Symmetrical English 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6
08/08/09 at 14:05:31
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I have a ‘repertoire’ question relating to the position after 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6. Originally I was thinking, by playing 4 d4 rather than 4 g3 here, I could, should I so wish, avoid the Tarrasch and Keres-Parma (not out of esteem of them, but just so as to concentrate on other parts of the possible repertoire, e.g. the Maroczy Bind). But Davies says (p. 71) that 4 …cd 5 Nd4 e6 6 g3 Qb6! is not great for White, and so it indeed seems. White has other sixth moves, though, and I’m wondering why Davies doesn’t mention these. Has anyone experience/knowledge of [i]6 Ndb5[/i], [i]6 a3,[/i] [i]6 Bf4[/i] or [i]6 Bg5[/i], which are common tries (the first two anyway) and seem quite decent?

Of course the original ‘thought’ is not impeccably logical, since after 3 …e6 instead of 3 …Nc6, to avoid a Tarrasch or K-P White would probably have to play the fairly rare [i]4 e4!?[/i] (4 e3 could produce a Semi-Tarrasch or Panov-Botvinnik Caro-Kann), but then that's all right, since it offers good chances of a Maroczy Bind occurring!

  
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