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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) looking for a repertoire against the modern. (Read 15575 times)
Ludde
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Re: looking for a repertoire against the modern.
Reply #20 - 12/07/09 at 15:50:42
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Bibs wrote on 11/20/09 at 14:50:15:
Bg5 is a dangerous system. I suffered  on the black side (e.g. v Nakamura, lesser folk too alas)

Look at the games of e.g. Rublevsky, Tiviakov and Nakamura  when learning Bg5.

Best coverage: here, plus Vigus PIBAW.

McNab a tad half-arsed in the DW book.
White d5 - just says look at Czech benoni.  But N on a6 there, not d7. B not on g5. So, rather different.
Other coverage in that chapter does however appear interesting - compare with Williams' Dragodorf.




I think that the attemptt o compare with the Dragadorf is interesting. Often my feeling is that against whites f3 + Be3/Bg5 + Qd2 in the modern black is essentially trying to reach that kind of position with a7-a6, b7-b5, Nb8-d7, c7-c5, Bc8-b7, c5xd4 etc. This is not that easy to achieve, and in the Dragadorf it is all in place from the start. The only trumph black has in the modern compared to the Dragadorf is that The knight is still on g8 so that Bh6 is not possible - this might be a big virtue though. This might be the wrong thread for all of this, but I found it interesting that someone else had seen the same similarities.
  
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moahunter
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Re: looking for a repertoire against the modern.
Reply #19 - 12/06/09 at 16:39:06
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Ludde wrote on 11/20/09 at 10:09:09:
For what it's worth my understanding has always been that Bg5 makes a lot of sense vs the Pirc (since there is actually a knight on f6) but much less so vs the modern. In "Tigers modern" the chapter on Bg5 is named "Into midair" and to me that is very appropriate.

I agree with you, I don't think Bg5 is very effective at all against the modern, if anything, I am pleased when somebody plays it against me. I guess Tiger in his book has "pumped me up" into thinking this is a useless move that aims at nothing / is a tempo waste (as I can "kick" at that bishop at some point). It is a good move against the Pirc though - some Pirc players change to the modern because they hate this move so much.

If somebody is looking for something a bit different against the modern, Carpartheian Warior 2 is worth checking out, for the "Golden Spike". Probably the "best" options against the modern though, IMO, are the Austrian, and also "c4" - if you don't mind d4 lines / playing against the KID.
  
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Bibs
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Re: looking for a repertoire against the modern.
Reply #18 - 11/20/09 at 14:50:15
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Bg5 is a dangerous system. I suffered  on the black side (e.g. v Nakamura, lesser folk too alas)

Look at the games of e.g. Rublevsky, Tiviakov and Nakamura  when learning Bg5.

Best coverage: here, plus Vigus PIBAW.

McNab a tad half-arsed in the DW book.
White d5 - just says look at Czech benoni.  But N on a6 there, not d7. B not on g5. So, rather different.
Other coverage in that chapter does however appear interesting - compare with Williams' Dragodorf.



  
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Ludde
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Re: looking for a repertoire against the modern.
Reply #17 - 11/20/09 at 10:09:09
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wcywing wrote on 11/20/09 at 09:17:36:
for what it's worth, i am looking at 4. Bg5 against Pirc/Modern Defence. 

For what it's worth my understanding has always been that Bg5 makes a lot of sense vs the Pirc (since there is actually a knight on f6) but much less so vs the modern. In "Tigers modern" the chapter on Bg5 is named "Into midair" and to me that is very appropriate. Usually the play resembles the lines with Be3 since white tries to execute the same type of plan (Qd2, Bh6 if possible, and h2-h4-h5 etc) but on e3 the bishop defends d4 as well as making c7-c5 very much more difficult for black to play. On g5 its only function is to prevent the e7-pawn from moving, but only as long as the black queen remains on d8.
  
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Re: looking for a repertoire against the modern.
Reply #16 - 11/20/09 at 09:17:36
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for what it's worth, i am looking at 4. Bg5 against Pirc/Modern Defence.
  
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wcywing
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Re: looking for a repertoire against the modern.
Reply #15 - 08/20/09 at 04:27:23
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i got the pirc in black and white, it is excellent, i should have gotten it sooner.  i like the concept of the archbishop attack; looks like i can use against the modern too.
  
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Re: looking for a repertoire against the modern.
Reply #14 - 08/12/09 at 11:13:22
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I will advice something else : I propose to take advantage of the fact that the Modern allows you to go 'closed'. Play e4, d4 ànd c4. Then all you have to do is find the variation aganist the KID and related Moderns that suits you best. This should be quite ease as literature on this subject literally abounds, and not only databasedumps or variationcrunchers, but also books that will five you the 'ideas' (First that comes to mind is 'King's Indian Battle Plans' but there are others, too).

  
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wcywing
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Re: looking for a repertoire against the modern.
Reply #13 - 08/10/09 at 04:02:55
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JEH wrote on 08/09/09 at 14:39:11:
wcywing wrote on 08/09/09 at 12:17:47:
it is the modern ang gurg system that gives me the fits, to a lesser extent the pirc.  i do agree that white's problem is that there are so many choices.  i will get the pirc book b/w i can always use something against that.  

if i remember correctly, jude acers book has a line with e4, d4, c3, f4.  he has some other lines vs pirc, but i'm sure its not as detailed as dzindi.  


NB, Pirc In Black and White covers postitions after 1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6, so it won't suit you if your requirement is anti-Modern.

Is c4 vs the Modern (i.e. a d4 game, probably main line KID) an option for you?

Carpathian Warrior also covers an f4 based repetoire, (if your eyes can stand its cover  Wink), and also includes f4 lines vs the Czech Pirc.



i might get carpahian warrior 1 & 2; the contents look interesting and annoying; something my opponents might play.   Angry 

i will take a look at all the lines to see which fits my repertoire.  if i refute the modern i will definatly write a book.   Cheesy 
  
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MNb
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Re: looking for a repertoire against the modern.
Reply #12 - 08/10/09 at 02:19:32
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Bibs wrote on 08/09/09 at 14:04:52:
With respect, I rather disagree.


You propose 4.Bg5 vs. the Modern. It must have occurred to you that Nf6 directly transposes back to the Pirc. I fail to see how you can disagree with this. This transposition exactly proves my point: what you play against one will determine what you play against the other.

With my respect, but lifting one line out of its context gives me the impression that you haven't read the rest of my post. I typically don't recommend one and the same attacking plan against all black setups. I recommend 4.Be3 exactly because it retains the option to chose the sharpest depending on what Black plays.
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: looking for a repertoire against the modern.
Reply #11 - 08/09/09 at 23:42:12
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[quote]Austrian is great versus pirc (see e.g. Greek fella Tzermisomething articles in NIC Yearbook), but very tricky to manage versus ...a6 modern. [/quote]

Great, maybe, but I thought a few of the fangs were meant to have been drawn these days, or am I out of date? But why do you feel 4 f4 is not so impressive against the Modern? 4 ...a6 sure, but then how does Black handle the position? Any model games? (Or to put the Q another way, do you entirely trust/like Tiger's stuff here?)

Talking of T H-P, MNb's line 'E' above is his Game 9, in his notes to which he concludes Black is OK. But I'm sure this can be a dangerous system for Black to face, esp. if s/he's not prepared.
« Last Edit: 08/10/09 at 14:03:40 by Michael Ayton »  
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JEH
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Re: looking for a repertoire against the modern.
Reply #10 - 08/09/09 at 14:39:11
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wcywing wrote on 08/09/09 at 12:17:47:
it is the modern ang gurg system that gives me the fits, to a lesser extent the pirc.  i do agree that white's problem is that there are so many choices.  i will get the pirc book b/w i can always use something against that.  

if i remember correctly, jude acers book has a line with e4, d4, c3, f4.  he has some other lines vs pirc, but i'm sure its not as detailed as dzindi.  


NB, Pirc In Black and White covers postitions after 1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6, so it won't suit you if your requirement is anti-Modern.

Is c4 vs the Modern (i.e. a d4 game, probably main line KID) an option for you?

Carpathian Warrior also covers an f4 based repetoire, (if your eyes can stand its cover  Wink), and also includes f4 lines vs the Czech Pirc.

  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Bibs
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Re: looking for a repertoire against the modern.
Reply #9 - 08/09/09 at 14:04:52
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MNb wrote on 08/09/09 at 13:42:18:
wcywing wrote on 08/09/09 at 07:56:56:
my positional skills are lacking



"First of all you should expand your question: a repertoire against the Modern and the Pirc. The two are too closely connected.[/


With respect, I rather disagree. In fact is a good way to see if an opening repertoire book is put together properly - if there are separate chapters for each discussing the significant differences and set-ups.

Lumping the two together without due consideration of the significantly differing aims will cause no end of trouble I feel. But is so often done by lazy authors.

4Bg5 is useful against the modern - the most effective anti-hippo too. Hippo a real pain versus knights on c3 and f3. Keep c or f pawn free. See Rublevsky games, Tiger's Modern, plus Shamkovich's Chess Terrorism (or similar title).

Austrian is great versus pirc (see e.g. Greek fella Tzermisomething articles in NIC Yearbook), but very tricky to manage versus ...a6 modern.

I learnt the hard way - nasty losses against GMs Mestel and Nakamura trying to hack Pirc-style versus the Modern.

  
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MNb
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Re: looking for a repertoire against the modern.
Reply #8 - 08/09/09 at 13:42:18
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wcywing wrote on 08/09/09 at 07:56:56:
my positional skills are lacking

This pretty much rules out lines with g3 and Be2. In these White's main strategical goal is to prevent Black's counterplay, not to attack yourself.

First of all you should expand your question: a repertoire against the Modern and the Pirc. The two are too closely connected.
What you need imo is straightforward stuff. All the GM's of course play the Austrian, so that must be the best. But you can expect that Black is prepared to the teeth for it. Moreover GM's interprete the Austrian very positionally these days; no early attacks. So I offer this option, which is my repertoire and the only variation I have remained faithful to for more than 25 years (yes, 1.d4 d6 2.e4  Smiley):

A) 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 0-0 6.0-0-0 (more precise than 6.f3 e5) c6/Nc6 7.f3 b5 8.h4 or 8.Bh6. White's play is similar to the Jugoslav Attac - Bh6, h2-h4-h5, sac-sac mate. Please notice the lines 8.h4 Qa5 9.Bh6 Be6 10.h5 b4 11.Nb1 (a very dangerous gambit) and  8.Bh6 Qa5 9.Kb1 Be6 9.Nd5 (giving White a clear and lasting plus).

B) 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 (0-0 7.h4) 7.Qxh6 Qa5 (7...b5 8.e5, 7...e5; 7...Nbd7;) 8.0-0-0. You will need to put the most effort here, as it has the soundest reputation. It is nice that White still has the choice between f3, h3 and Nf3. Take a look at Kasparov-Radjabov, Moscow 2002 to learn how to handle the white pieces. Black of course can do better.

C) 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 Ng4 6.Bg5 Bg7 7.Qd2 followed by h3 and f4.

D) 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 (5.Qd2 is less effective now as Black can leave the bishop on f8 for a while) Bg7 6.f4 and White argues that f2-f4 is more useful than ...c7-c6. His/her dream is to attack according to the Grand Prix Scheme: Bd3, Nf3, 0-0, Qd1-e1-h4, f4-f5, Bh6, Ng5 etcetera.

This means you often will have to play Austrian setups against the Modern as well. But that should not scare you off: 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3

E) 3...d6 4.Be3 a6 5.f4 eg b5 6.Bd3 Bb7 7.Nf3

F) 3...d6 4.Be3 c6 5.f4 eg b5 6.Bd3 Nbd7 7.Nf3. If Black does not castle - and (s)he often does not - White usually grabs more space with an early e4-e5 and Nc3-e4 or Bd3-e4.

G) 3...d6 4.Be3 e6 5.Qd2 and 6.f3. You will have to remember here that White should postpone castling queenside. That robs of Black's dangerous plan of ...Nbd7; ...Rc8; and ...c5 as recommended by Martin. Instead you will just grab space on the king's wing. Thanks to Black's restrained setup White's king will be safe in the centre for a very long time and sometimes unexpectedly go to the right.

H) 3...c6 4.f4 d5 5.e5 h5 6.Be3 Nh6 7.Nf3 Bg4 8.h3 Bxf3 9.Qxf3 Nf5 10.Bf2 h4 11.Bd3 e6 12.Ne2. This is the key. Black has nicely blockaded the kingside. So White's king will be safe there and White will develop an initiative on the queenside, usually with b3 and c4.

I believe Black may prove equality in line B but suffers in all the others. White's play has a sound positional foundation, unlike early h2-h4-h5 stuff. As far as I know there is no book dealing with this repertoire, so I advise you to consult a database and play through several games. You will see that White is doing well and pick up quite a few aggressive ideas.

Now if this is too much work you can play 4.f3, 5.Be3 against everything (The Argentinian Attack). But if Black does not castle early play will be rather positional. A sample line is 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f3 Bg7 5.Be3 c6 6.Qd2 b5 7.h4 h5 8.Nh3 Nbd7 9.Ng5 Qa5. This made me turn to 4.Be3 (postponing f2-f3) - more flexibility to chose the most aggressive setup.

A final word on the 150-Attack, which is often recommended. Again 4.Be3, 5.Qd2 must be the most precise move order. In B) transposing to it with 6.Nf3 might be objectively better than my recommendation 6.Bh6. The problem I have with 6.Nf3 consists of the lines in which Black's does not castle and plays an early ...b7-b5. White will have to castle kingside and exploit Black's weaknesses with a2-a4. I will not dispute that this is very promising, but just refer to the quote above.
  

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wcywing
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Re: looking for a repertoire against the modern.
Reply #7 - 08/09/09 at 12:17:47
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it is the modern ang gurg system that gives me the fits, to a lesser extent the pirc.  i do agree that white's problem is that there are so many choices.  i will get the pirc book b/w i can always use something against that. 

if i remember correctly, jude acers book has a line with e4, d4, c3, f4.  he has some other lines vs pirc, but i'm sure its not as detailed as dzindi.
  
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JEH
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Re: looking for a repertoire against the modern.
Reply #6 - 08/09/09 at 10:17:31
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White is spolit for choice really, so you need to settle on something.

Do you mean specifically the modern, i.e. systems specific to it, like the Gurg, or the Pirc too?

If your goal is to refute it, then your ally may be Roman Dzindizichashvili, who produced an online "Die Pirc! Die!" (no longer available), and DVDs (out of date now but a lot of it is still valid) and Chess Openings for White Explained (down side is you get the other gumf and it's missing a key defence for Black).

However Firebrandx posted the original online article in the thread " Roman's analysis of the Pirc?" which you can download.
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1241662017
You might want to check it out.

A lot of the old recommendations against his systems do not work.

You can get a Kingside attack going if Black is not careful (and maybe even if he is  Wink). You can get a Classical set up from it too (with a4/h3 kind of restraint).

A principled approach would be the Austrian e.g. Khalifmans Anand repertoire book 4. I didn't fancy playing the Gurg against that. But a lot of theory to remember here.

The g3 system is good, and so are the Argentine attacks and the Archbishop attack (see Pirc in Black and White).

But there are so many ways, no one of which stands out as the best. White is spoilt for choice, so just pick and stick.

P.S. For annoying systems...

Against the Modern: e4, d4, c3, f4
Against the Pirc:      e4, d4, f3
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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