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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Lowenthal variation of Sicilian (Read 31319 times)
Ender
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Re: Lowenthal variation of Sicilian
Reply #29 - 08/20/12 at 17:09:01
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Thank you. I will check these sources. I'm surprised that there is no single book about such interesting variation.
  

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Re: Lowenthal variation of Sicilian
Reply #28 - 08/19/12 at 14:17:14
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There was an article by Stefan Buecker not so long ago on Chesscafe on the Lowenthal. Other than that there are the usual sources like Chess Publishing, Kaissiber, NIC Yearbooks, Informants, TWICs etc.

Without giving too much away I should mention that 8.Qd1 is recommended by De La Villa in 'Dismantling the Sicilian' and 8.Qd2 in Bologan's Repertoire DVD. I understand if you aren't willing to buy a book for their recommendation in one line but you can always analyse the critical lines yourself, of course.
  

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Re: Lowenthal variation of Sicilian
Reply #27 - 08/18/12 at 13:19:46
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Thank you! I didn't knew this option!

I did not found anything on chessbase www. Is there any book about it? I know DW, but maybe something else?
  

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Re: Lowenthal variation of Sicilian
Reply #26 - 08/18/12 at 12:28:43
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Ender wrote on 08/18/12 at 11:54:20:
Hi guys! Is there any chessbase DVD about this system?


You can search:
http://chessbase-shop.com/en/new_products
On the left is a link 'Product finder with board'. Red chessy square.
Key in the moves, hey presto.
  
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Re: Lowenthal variation of Sicilian
Reply #25 - 08/18/12 at 11:54:20
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Hi guys! Is there any chessbase DVD about this system?
  

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Re: Lowenthal variation of Sicilian
Reply #24 - 11/12/11 at 13:53:49
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Markovich wrote on 11/12/11 at 06:35:07:
From the position shown in #9, 20...Bxf5 21.gxf5 Ne7 22.Rd1 Kc7 23.0-0 Rd6 24.Rde1 and I prefer White. Only the last move is original to me (so far as I know).

I will stand by for some hoop-jumping analysis by Black's partisans.


The first remark is that Black needn't commit himself that early with ...Bxf5. 20...Nf6 certainly makes sense, where "Dangerous Weapons" also go shallow and take immediately on g6, which is certainly not best (giving Black counterplay on the h-file).
The second one is that, since ...f6 is rather forced at some time, Black can omit (in your line) 23...Rd6, and pick 23...f6 instead. Actually both moves featured in a game. After 23...Rd6 white won because he was a stronger (correspondence) player, while after 23...f6 the game was drawn, because both players (not high rated) did not play optimally.
I have put the position after 20.f5 to Arena, and made a 12-rounds match between Deep Rybka 4.1 and Houdini 1.5a. No surprise for me that all games ended in a draw. I can pass you the pgn, if interested (although I guess it's hardly useful, machines cannot grab the positional nuances of such positions).
  
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Re: Lowenthal variation of Sicilian
Reply #23 - 11/12/11 at 13:30:31
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Glenn Snow wrote on 11/12/11 at 07:08:19:
Off topic still and not that interesting but an important repertoire consideration but mostly I wanted to point out that I meant 3...e5 of course.


3...e5 is a very solid, if somewhat commital/boring answer. I do believe that white has some dim chances of an opening advantage in the opening sequence 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nge2!? e5, where hae can easily switch both knigkts against the d5 square, but with the knight already on f3 the whole concept has less punch.
I was sceptical about puncturing d5 that early, but after discussing the variation in to some detail with GM Stratos Grivas (who is using 3...e5 regularly when White tries to avoid his pet "Grivas Sicilian" with 3.Nc3) I was convinced that Black should be OK.
The other option to avoid bulk mainlines is of course 3...g6, where black has avoided the worst of the Accelerated Dragon bulk of theory (which is the dreaded Maroczy Bind, of course).
  
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Re: Lowenthal variation of Sicilian
Reply #22 - 11/12/11 at 07:08:19
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Glenn Snow wrote on 11/06/11 at 00:32:27:
If you do decide to go ahead with Lowenthal you will also have to be prepared to face 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 when White has the option of playing d4 unless Black plays 3...d5.
  Off topic still and not that interesting but an important repertoire consideration but mostly I wanted to point out that I meant 3...e5 of course.
  
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Re: Lowenthal variation of Sicilian
Reply #21 - 11/12/11 at 06:35:07
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From the position shown in #9, 20...Bxf5 21.gxf5 Ne7 22.Rd1 Kc7 23.0-0 Rd6 24.Rde1 and I prefer White. Only the last move is original to me (so far as I know).

I will stand by for some hoop-jumping analysis by Black's partisans.
  

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PANFR
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Re: Lowenthal variation of Sicilian
Reply #20 - 11/11/11 at 21:35:24
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 11/11/11 at 20:34:39:
It was a short, superficial article: www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss22.pdf which included a flawed analysis of 8.Qc7 (more on the latter in www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss29.pdf ). The Löwenthal may be slightly better for White, but imo 8.Qd1 is less critical than 8.Qc7.

After 8.Qd1 ... Qe4+, I didn't mention 11.Be2. By the way, after 11...Nd4 12.Nc7+ Ke7 you also mention 13.Kf1. It seems that Black has a pretty reply: 13...Nxe2 14.Nxa8 Bh3!! 15.gxh3 Nf6 16.Nb6 Rd8 17.Qe1 Qxh1+ 18.Kxe2 Qe4+ 19.Be3 Nh5 20.Qg1 Nf4+ 21.Kf1 Kf8! =.


Ah, thank you! Very helpful.
I was aware of that pretty variation, since it was mentioned in "Dangerous Weapons". However, the author claimed that 17...Qxh1+ is inaccurate, and 17...Qf3 is the way to play. But Houdini had no trouble to find that actually both moves lead to a forced draw.
  
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Re: Lowenthal variation of Sicilian
Reply #19 - 11/11/11 at 20:34:39
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PANFR wrote on 11/11/11 at 17:51:49:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 11/11/11 at 13:10:59:
I wrote about the Löwenthal Variation. 8.Qd1 is relatively harmless imo.
16...Nf6 17.Bg5 Rd8 18.Qc1 Bf5 19.b4 Qd4 20.g4 Bd3 =, e.g. 21.Bxd3 Qxd3+ 22.Kf2 Nxa1 23.Qxa1 e4!.


Ah, thanks. I was not aware of this analysis. Has it been at Kaissiber, or here? I could not spot something.
16...Nf6 certainly looks like an improvement for black, since 19.g4 (instead of 19.b4) Bd3 20.Bxd3 Rxd3 21.Kg2 h6 looks about equal, too.

It was a short, superficial article: www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss22.pdf which included a flawed analysis of 8.Qc7 (more on the latter in www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss29.pdf ). The Löwenthal may be slightly better for White, but imo 8.Qd1 is less critical than 8.Qc7.

After 8.Qd1 ... Qe4+, I didn't mention 11.Be2. By the way, after 11...Nd4 12.Nc7+ Ke7 you also mention 13.Kf1. It seems that Black has a pretty reply: 13...Nxe2 14.Nxa8 Bh3!! 15.gxh3 Nf6 16.Nb6 Rd8 17.Qe1 Qxh1+ 18.Kxe2 Qe4+ 19.Be3 Nh5 20.Qg1 Nf4+ 21.Kf1 Kf8! =.
  
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Re: Lowenthal variation of Sicilian
Reply #18 - 11/11/11 at 17:51:49
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 11/11/11 at 13:10:59:
I wrote about the Löwenthal Variation. 8.Qd1 is relatively harmless imo.
16...Nf6 17.Bg5 Rd8 18.Qc1 Bf5 19.b4 Qd4 20.g4 Bd3 =, e.g. 21.Bxd3 Qxd3+ 22.Kf2 Nxa1 23.Qxa1 e4!.


Ah, thanks. I was not aware of this analysis. Has it been at Kaissiber, or here? I could not spot something.
16...Nf6 certainly looks like an improvement for black, since 19.g4 (instead of 19.b4) Bd3 20.Bxd3 Rxd3 21.Kg2 h6 looks about equal, too.
  
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Re: Lowenthal variation of Sicilian
Reply #17 - 11/11/11 at 13:10:59
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PANFR wrote on 11/11/11 at 10:02:33:
IMO in the main line with 8.Qd1 Qg6 9.Nc3 d5 10.Nxd5 Qxe4+ Black is almost busted after 11.Be2! Nd4 12.Nc7+ Ke7 13.f3 (13.Kf1 is also interesting) Nxc2+ (or 13...Qc6 14.Nxa8 Nxc2+ etc) 14.Kf2 Qc6 15.Nxa8 Qc5+ 16.Kf1 Nxa1 17.b4!
Now "Dangerous Weapons" gives 17...Qc2! 18.Nb6 Nf6 19.Be3 Qxd1 20.Bxd1 Nd7!? 21.Ba4 when black is OK after 21...Nxb6 22.Bxb6 Bd7 or 22...Bf5. But after 21.Ke2! Black is in deep trouble with the stranded knight at a1.
I could not find anything convincing for black: 21...Nxb6 22.Bxb6 Bf5 23.Kd2! Rc8 24.g4 Bd7 25.Bc5+, or 21...Nxb6 22.Bxb6 Bd7!? 23.Kd2 (23.f4 also looks very good for white) Rc8 24.Bc5+ Ke6 (24...Kf6 25.f4!) 25.Be2 and black is almost lost.
Black may have to play 17...Qc6, although 18.Bd3 Nf6 19.Be3 also looks better for white.
So, the only variation for black is Vallejo's preferred one, 9...Nge7 10.h4 h5 11.Bg5 d5 12.ed5 Nd4! 13.Bd3 Bf5 14.Bxf5 Ndxf5! as in Efimenko- Pons, where Black has very interesting positional compensation for the sacrificed pawn.

I wrote about the Löwenthal Variation. 8.Qd1 is relatively harmless imo.
16...Nf6 17.Bg5 Rd8 18.Qc1 Bf5 19.b4 Qd4 20.g4 Bd3 =, e.g. 21.Bxd3 Qxd3+ 22.Kf2 Nxa1 23.Qxa1 e4!.
  
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Re: Lowenthal variation of Sicilian
Reply #16 - 11/11/11 at 10:02:33
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IMO in the main line with 8.Qd1 Qg6 9.Nc3 d5 10.Nxd5 Qxe4+ Black is almost busted after 11.Be2! Nd4 12.Nc7+ Ke7 13.f3 (13.Kf1 is also interesting) Nxc2+ (or 13...Qc6 14.Nxa8 Nxc2+ etc) 14.Kf2 Qc6 15.Nxa8 Qc5+ 16.Kf1 Nxa1 17.b4!
Now "Dangerous Weapons" gives 17...Qc2! 18.Nb6 Nf6 19.Be3 Qxd1 20.Bxd1 Nd7!? 21.Ba4 when black is OK after 21...Nxb6 22.Bxb6 Bd7 or 22...Bf5. But after 21.Ke2! Black is in deep trouble with the stranded knight at a1.
I could not find anything convincing for black: 21...Nxb6 22.Bxb6 Bf5 23.Kd2! Rc8 24.g4 Bd7 25.Bc5+, or 21...Nxb6 22.Bxb6 Bd7!? 23.Kd2 (23.f4 also looks very good for white) Rc8 24.Bc5+ Ke6 (24...Kf6 25.f4!) 25.Be2 and black is almost lost.
Black may have to play 17...Qc6, although 18.Bd3 Nf6 19.Be3 also looks better for white.
So, the only variation for black is Vallejo's preferred one, 9...Nge7 10.h4 h5 11.Bg5 d5 12.ed5 Nd4! 13.Bd3 Bf5 14.Bxf5 Ndxf5! as in Efimenko- Pons, where Black has very interesting positional compensation for the sacrificed pawn.
  
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Re: Lowenthal variation of Sicilian
Reply #15 - 11/06/11 at 02:29:23
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Blunderer wrote on 11/05/11 at 20:16:11:
Thanks chaps - clearly i need to spend a bit more time looking at it, as you seem to have a much more negative view of the position than i do.

I think you could do well enough at the club level, just playing right into the teeth of that ending and knowing it better than your opponent. There are other dangerous lines, of course, but the same goes for them.
  

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Re: Lowenthal variation of Sicilian
Reply #14 - 11/06/11 at 00:36:47
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Expanding on Glenn Snow's post, an interesting sideline that may appeal to Lowenthal players is 3...e5 4.Bc4 h6 followed by ...g6, ...d6, ...Bg7, ...Nge7 and ...0-0, playing a Botvinnik setup. It's a bit better for White, of course, but the ideas for Black are very simple and recurring, like in the Lowenthal.
  

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Re: Lowenthal variation of Sicilian
Reply #13 - 11/06/11 at 00:32:27
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If you do decide to go ahead with Lowenthal you will also have to be prepared to face 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 when White has the option of playing d4 unless Black plays 3...d5.
  
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Re: Lowenthal variation of Sicilian
Reply #12 - 11/05/11 at 20:16:11
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Thanks chaps - clearly i need to spend a bit more time looking at it, as you seem to have a much more negative view of the position than i do.
  
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Re: Lowenthal variation of Sicilian
Reply #11 - 11/05/11 at 18:29:09
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That's what I had in mind and yes, I would much rather be White.
  

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Re: Lowenthal variation of Sicilian
Reply #10 - 11/05/11 at 12:48:53
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In my opinion (after looking at the position for two seconds) only White has winning chances in the diagram position. That Black won is due to the difference in rating rather than the evaluation of the position.
  

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Blunderer
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Re: Lowenthal variation of Sicilian
Reply #9 - 11/05/11 at 10:07:25
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* * * * * * * *
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I guess this is the line you were referrring to, with the diagram being a critical position after move 20.

I'm not quite sure how this positin should be assessed,  clearly the 2 bishops and the potential passers on the queenside look quite attractive.

That said, I'm not convinced that White will keep the two bishops, Black's knights have got some nice squares, and the black rooks will become quite active.

The computer seems to take the view that its equal.
« Last Edit: 11/05/11 at 11:47:14 by GMTonyKosten »  
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Re: Lowenthal variation of Sicilian
Reply #8 - 11/05/11 at 05:20:37
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I would much rather be White in the critical ending that arises after 8.Qd1, which I believe to be the best move.
  

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Re: Lowenthal variation of Sicilian
Reply #7 - 11/05/11 at 01:28:27
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Blunderer wrote on 11/04/11 at 23:34:44:
you know I'm not saying Black simply equalises  Wink

But most sources seem to indicate a clear advantage.

Clearly computer assessments need to be taken with a pince of salt, but Houdini seems to be getting pretty close to equality in the Qf6 and Qd1 lines i have looked at


Of course. I know Tony Rotella's book 'The Killer Sicilian' is due to be published, but I don't remember if he covers 5...a6 as well as 5...d6.

You are right that most books tend to not take the Lowenthal seriously, which you can take advantage of to score a lot of points in practice.

On second thoughts, 8.Qd1 is probably stronger than 8.Qc7.
  

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Re: Lowenthal variation of Sicilian
Reply #6 - 11/04/11 at 23:34:44
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you know I'm not saying Black simply equalises  Wink

But most sources seem to indicate a clear advantage.

Clearly computer assessments need to be taken with a pince of salt, but Houdini seems to be getting pretty close to equality in the Qf6 and Qd1 lines i have looked at
  
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Re: Lowenthal variation of Sicilian
Reply #5 - 11/04/11 at 23:12:17
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Blunderer wrote on 11/04/11 at 21:52:02:
I've finally decided to give the Sicilian a try after concluding i've had enough of the french (the opening not the people).

I kind of suspect that I'm more likely to face the anti sicilians rather than the main lines so am looking for an easy short term system based on an early Nc6.

I've spent a couple of hours looking at the Lowenthal now, using the Dangerous Weapons and Houdini - and it seems to me that this system is seriously under-rated. 

I'm not saying that Black equalises in all lines, but I'm struggling to find many lines where Black has much in the way on problems.

If anyone could point to any specific lines where they thing Black is up against it, could they please point me in the right direction

Thanks in advance


8.Qf6 and 8.Qc7 are the critical lines, both += in my opinion. But if you are able to prove equality then you could be on to a long-term answer to the Open Sicilian.  Smiley
  

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Re: Lowenthal variation of Sicilian
Reply #4 - 11/04/11 at 21:52:02
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I've finally decided to give the Sicilian a try after concluding i've had enough of the french (the opening not the people).

I kind of suspect that I'm more likely to face the anti sicilians rather than the main lines so am looking for an easy short term system based on an early Nc6.

I've spent a couple of hours looking at the Lowenthal now, using the Dangerous Weapons and Houdini - and it seems to me that this system is seriously under-rated. 

I'm not saying that Black equalises in all lines, but I'm struggling to find many lines where Black has much in the way on problems.

If anyone could point to any specific lines where they thing Black is up against it, could they please point me in the right direction

Thanks in advance
  
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Re: Lowenthal variation of Sicilian
Reply #3 - 05/15/10 at 08:09:41
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1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 e5 5. Nb5 a6 6. Nd6+ Bxd6 7. Qxd6 Qf6

So what is current state of theory about Lowenthal? Can white fight for the opening advantage with 8.Qd1 or with Khalifmans 8.Qxf6 or with first engine choices 8.Qc7 or 8.Qd3?

and in 8.Qd1 line how good is 11.Bg5 after 8.Qd1 Qg6 9. Nc3 Nge7 10. h4 h5?


In DW Sicilian Palliser criticized Kramniks rook lift 11.Rh3 vs. Vallejo Pons. Efimenko got only draw vs. Vallejo with Bg5:
[Event "FIDE World Cup"]
[Site "Khanty Mansiysk"]
[Date "2005.12.04"]
[Round "3.2"]
[White "Efimenko, Zahar"]
[Black "Vallejo Pons, Francisco"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B32"]
[WhiteElo "2637"]
[BlackElo "2674"]
[PlyCount "77"]
[EventDate "2005.11.27"]
[EventType "k.o."]
[EventRounds "7"]
[EventCountry "RUS"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2006.04.04"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 e5 5. Nb5 a6 6. Nd6+ Bxd6 7. Qxd6 Qf6 8.
Qd1 Qg6 9. Nc3 Nge7 10. h4 h5 11. Bg5 d5 12. exd5 Nd4 13. Bd3 Bf5 14. Bxf5
Ndxf5 15. Qd3 f6 16. Be3 Qg4 17. g3 Nxe3 18. Qxe3 Rd8 19. Rd1 O-O 20. O-O Nf5
21. Qe4 Nd4 22. Kg2 Qxe4+ 23. Nxe4 Nxc2 24. d6 Nd4 25. f4 Nf5 26. Rd3 Rfe8 27.
d7 Re7 28. fxe5 Rxe5 29. Rc1 Kf7 30. Rc8 Ke7 31. Nc5 Nd6 32. Rxd8 Kxd8 33. b4
b6 34. Rxd6 bxc5 35. bxc5 Rxc5 36. Rxa6 Kxd7 37. Ra7+ Ke6 38. Rxg7 Rc2+ 39. Kf3
1/2-1/2

Edit: Kramniks rook lift 11.Rh3 not 8.Rh3  Smiley
« Last Edit: 05/15/10 at 22:19:09 by joakimvitriol »  
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Re: Lowenthal variation of Sicilian
Reply #2 - 08/12/09 at 19:59:28
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Palliser argues in DW Sicilian that the Löwenthal is playable (with 16...Bh5), but concedes that 16...Bc8 is unsound.
  
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Re: Lowenthal variation of Sicilian
Reply #1 - 08/12/09 at 14:34:30
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[quote author=solver1982 link=1250073071/0#0 3-Rd8,16.h3-Bc8,17.f4-ef4,18.Bf4-Ne6,19.Ne6-Be6,20.0-0 and white is clearly better according to Enciclopedia of Chess Openings,but I don't share that opinion.White's advantage is so small,because with precise play of Black,White has no avail of bishops pair. [/quote]

I would much rather be White.  Also my impression is that White's results from this position have been very good.  I don't have my database handy to check that, however.

Minor point: The norm here is to post in pgn fashion, so leave the dashes and commas out.
  

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Lowenthal variation of Sicilian
08/12/09 at 10:31:05
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17.f4-ef4,18.Bf4-Ne6,19.Ne6-Be6,20.0-0 and white is clearly better according to Enciclopedia of Chess Openings,but I don't share that opinion.White's advantage is so small,because with precise play of Black,White has no avail of bishops pair.
  
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