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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Arkhangelsk in Ruy Lopez (Read 11276 times)
Schaakhamster
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Re: Arkhangelsk in Ruy Lopez
Reply #11 - 08/20/09 at 07:40:23
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F22 wrote on 08/20/09 at 06:10:35:
Schaakhamster wrote on 08/18/09 at 10:07:47:
7. d3 Be7 might be the way to go. But I guess a lot of Arkhangelsk players just go 7. d3 Bc5 which looks inaccurate. Still, white is a tempo up after 7. d3 Be7 which can't be bad.


Could you elaborate more on why 6...Bb7 7.d3 Bc5 is inaccurate?


Well as I explained that in my first post... .

Theoretically it appears to be okay in my sources so if you think it is okay, then by all means, play it. In my opinion the position of c8-bishop shouldn't be disclosed too early to the opponent. Perhaps that is the rather subtle point which will matter more to super-GM's then to us.
  
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F22
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Re: Arkhangelsk in Ruy Lopez
Reply #10 - 08/20/09 at 06:10:35
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Schaakhamster wrote on 08/18/09 at 10:07:47:
7. d3 Be7 might be the way to go. But I guess a lot of Arkhangelsk players just go 7. d3 Bc5 which looks inaccurate. Still, white is a tempo up after 7. d3 Be7 which can't be bad.


Could you elaborate more on why 6...Bb7 7.d3 Bc5 is inaccurate?
  
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F22
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Re: Arkhangelsk in Ruy Lopez
Reply #9 - 08/20/09 at 06:03:39
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BobbyDigital80 wrote on 08/18/09 at 02:19:31:
What about this line?
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 b5 6.Bb3 Bc5 7.c3 d6 8.a4
Isn't this line annoying for black? If he now plays 8...Rb8 then 9.d4 Bb6 10.a5! is annoying. If 10...Nxa5 then 11.Rxa5! Bxa5 12.dxe5 and white is better. After 10.a5 black has to play 10...Ba7. Anyone know how this line is doing for black? Or should black play something different from 8...Rb8? Is Bb7 or Bg4 better? I'm interested in playing this as black but that a4 line is annoying.


I did not know about the exchange sacrifice. But what is wrong with 10.a5 Ba7 ? Anyway according to Beliavsky & Mikhalchishin 8...Rb8 is more accurate but then they don't even mention 10.a5.
  
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Schaakhamster
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Re: Arkhangelsk in Ruy Lopez
Reply #8 - 08/18/09 at 12:10:18
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F22 wrote on 08/18/09 at 10:23:31:
Schaakhamster wrote on 08/17/09 at 09:24:23:
After this move-order black can play

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O b5 6. Bb3 Bc5 7. a4 Bb7 8. d3 b4 taking away c3 from the knight which complicates the situation somewhat. Rerouting the knight to the kingside takes a lot more time now.



First of all Kramnik did not play 8...b4. Also White has no problem with getting his knight to K-side instead of Nc3-Ne2-Ng3 he can play Nd2-Nf1-Ng3.

Also I should mention that after 6...Bb7 7.d3 Black can also try 7...Bd6!? It is part of theory and if I recall correctly the idea is to play ...d5 in one move after ...O-O, ...Re8, ...Bf8.


I noticed the 7. ... Bd6 idea too. Interesting!

But as I said before: if you want to play Bc5, playing Bc5 before Bb7 seems to be more precise.

If Kasparov and especially Shirov think 7. d3 is a problem then there must be some thruth to it. I don't think black is lost or something like that but he seems to make life just that bit harder then it has to be.
  
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F22
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Re: Arkhangelsk in Ruy Lopez
Reply #7 - 08/18/09 at 10:23:31
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Schaakhamster wrote on 08/17/09 at 09:24:23:
After this move-order black can play

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O b5 6. Bb3 Bc5 7. a4 Bb7 8. d3 b4 taking away c3 from the knight which complicates the situation somewhat. Rerouting the knight to the kingside takes a lot more time now.



First of all Kramnik did not play 8...b4. Also White has no problem with getting his knight to K-side instead of Nc3-Ne2-Ng3 he can play Nd2-Nf1-Ng3.

Also I should mention that after 6...Bb7 7.d3 Black can also try 7...Bd6!? It is part of theory and if I recall correctly the idea is to play ...d5 in one move after ...O-O, ...Re8, ...Bf8.
  
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Schaakhamster
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Re: Arkhangelsk in Ruy Lopez
Reply #6 - 08/18/09 at 10:07:47
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MartinC wrote on 08/18/09 at 08:57:54:
I guess the issue with 6 .. Bb7 for a super GM is that 7 d3 Be7 etc is essentially just half a tempo down on all those h3/d3 anti Marshall things.

Its not objectively a huge problem this so it may well be a decent way to get this kind of position at club level. Main line marshall maybe very drawish objectively buts its an awful lot of work....


7. d3 Be7 might be the way to go. But I guess a lot of Arkhangelsk players just go 7. d3 Bc5 which looks inaccurate. Still, white is a tempo up after 7. d3 Be7 which can't be bad.
  
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Re: Arkhangelsk in Ruy Lopez
Reply #5 - 08/18/09 at 09:22:33
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By the way there will be a fritztrainer DVD by Michailtschisch in on the Arkhangelsk. I saw an excerpt in the latest CBM 131. While I was not absolutly impressed, Michailtschischin is shurly the top specialist on this topic so it may be interesting.
Unfortunatly I do not know if he also covers the Neo-Arkhangelsk
  
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Re: Arkhangelsk in Ruy Lopez
Reply #4 - 08/18/09 at 08:57:54
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I guess the issue with 6 .. Bb7 for a super GM is that 7 d3 Be7 etc is essentially just half a tempo down on all those h3/d3 anti Marshall things.

Its not objectively a huge problem this so it may well be a decent way to get this kind of position at club level. Main line marshall maybe very drawish objectively buts its an awful lot of work....
  
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Re: Arkhangelsk in Ruy Lopez
Reply #3 - 08/18/09 at 02:19:31
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What about this line?
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 b5 6.Bb3 Bc5 7.c3 d6 8.a4
Isn't this line annoying for black? If he now plays 8...Rb8 then 9.d4 Bb6 10.a5! is annoying. If 10...Nxa5 then 11.Rxa5! Bxa5 12.dxe5 and white is better. After 10.a5 black has to play 10...Ba7. Anyone know how this line is doing for black? Or should black play something different from 8...Rb8? Is Bb7 or Bg4 better? I'm interested in playing this as black but that a4 line is annoying.
  
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Re: Arkhangelsk in Ruy Lopez
Reply #2 - 08/17/09 at 09:29:35
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Shirov (on his first DVD about his games in the Spanish) gives very much the same reasons why he stopped playing the Arkhangelsk. He say that both 7. d3 (a good version of an Anti-Marshall, he says) and 7. c3 (same line as Khalifman gives) are somewhat better for White.

About model games I can only make some guesses. What about Carlsen-Beliavsky, Wijk 2006 or De Firmian,N-Lugo,B/San Diego USA 2004?
  
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Schaakhamster
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Re: Arkhangelsk in Ruy Lopez
Reply #1 - 08/17/09 at 09:24:23
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here is my take on it:

(1) In a way 6. ... Bb7 gives away information too early. Black develops his bishop to the h1-a8 diagonal to pressurize e4 without white being commited to the c3-d4 push. d3 reinforces e4 and if black insists on 7. ... Bc5 (7. ... Be7, keeping the bishop on a square where he can help out on the kingside might be better) I think that 8. Nc3 with a4 is strong.

For instance: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O b5 6. Bb3 Bb7 7. d3 Bc5 8. Nc3 d6 9. a4 b4 10. Ne2

White can rerout his queen's knight to the kingside much more quickly because black can't play Bg4. He has locked up the queenside and the bishop on b7 isn't doing a lot. Black might has to play Bc8 down the line to activate this bishop). All in all enough to claim an edge for white.

With 6. ... Bc5 black can see what white wants. After 7. d3 his c8 bishop can be hold in reserve and deployed according to whatever white's plan is.

Summary: 6. ... Bc5 is more flexible while 6. ... Bb7 gives white an easy and good plan. Is black busted in the 6. ... Bb7 line? Far from, but in GM-chess it is all about small differences.

(2)

After this move-order black can play

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O b5 6. Bb3 Bc5 7. a4 Bb7 8. d3 b4 taking away c3 from the knight which complicates the situation somewhat. Rerouting the knight to the kingside takes a lot more time now.

  
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Arkhangelsk in Ruy Lopez
08/17/09 at 07:52:22
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After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O b5 6.Bb3 the move 6...Bb7 leads to the good old Arkhangelsk and 6...Bc5 is the Neo-Arkhangelsk. I have not seen anyone in top play 6...Bb7, everyone plays 6...Bc5. Kasparov in "Revolution in 70s" explains that this is due to White responding to 6...Bb7 with 7.d3. I find that puzzling and here is why:

(1) if 7.d3 is that strong against 6...Bb7 can somebody give me a model White win after 7...Bc5 that illustrates why it is so strong?

(2) in London 2000, Kramnik went for this line with Black! Although with a transposition, but still he allowed it and he got a draw (game 11 and it went 6...Bc5 7.a4 Bb7 8.d3 ...).

(3) If the reason for preferring 6...Bc5 to 6...Bb7 is not 7.d3 then what is it? Khalifman recommends 6...Bb7 7.c3 Nxe4 8.d4 Na5 9.Nxe5 Nxb3 10.Qxb3 but I don't find that scary at all.
  
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