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Normal Topic A couple of annoying lines in the Bishop's Opening (Read 2511 times)
Stefan Buecker
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Re: A couple of annoying lines in the Bishop's Opening
Reply #4 - 08/19/09 at 09:39:10
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Crapov wrote on 08/18/09 at 23:45:45:
I) 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 d5 (Larsen thought this to be dubious)
4.exd5 Nxd5 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.0-0 Bc5!?

6.Qe2 is less popular, but gives White some advantage.
  
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Matemax
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Re: A couple of annoying lines in the Bishop's Opening
Reply #3 - 08/19/09 at 06:11:59
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Quote:
I) 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 d5 (Larsen thought this to be dubious)
4.exd5 Nxd5 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.0-0 Bc5!? (I have faced this move a couple of times OTB and a few times in blitz. It's not as bad as it looks! 6.-Bg4 is not a bad move either)
7.Re1 0-0 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 (8.-Qh4 stirs up complications as well)
9.Rxe5 Bxf2+ 10.Kxf2 Qh4+  11.Kf1 Qf6+ 12.Qf3 Qxe5 (I have had this position a couple of times.  One game went)
13.Bxd5 c6 14.Bb3 Qxh2 15.Kf2 a5!? 16.c3 a4 (and now I blundered with 17.Bf4? Qh4+ 18.Bg3 Qd8! (threatening 19.-Qb6. But coming back to the seventeenth move, 17.Bc4? seems to loose as well after 17.-b5 18.Bxb5 Qh4+, which leaves only 17.Bd1 or 17.Bc2 when Black seems to be doing allright).
So I'm wondering where can White improve after  6.-Bc5.

Why do you play 15.Kf2 - 15.Be3 looks more natural
Somehow the whole line reminds me of a classical Marshall attack with ...Nf6 (Capablanca-Marshall - stem game!) which was also not completely correct but indeed tricky

Quote:
II. The other line that has been annoying me may not look very scary but wait till you have to face it! :
1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Nc6 4.Nc3 h6
(I have not seen this covered and it may not seem very impressive but in my mind it's a very decent waiting move. I have actually started to play this from the Black side after numerous attempts from the White side. Now if White wants to play f2-f4 a la John Emms (in Attacking with 1.e4) then I think Black equalizes comfortably)
5.f4 Bb4 and then 6.Nf3 d5, or 6.Nge2 (not the ideal square for the Knight) simply 6.-0-0 with easy equality.
5.Nf3 seems to transpose to Giuco Pianissimo, an opening even beginners quickly get tired of. So what do you think White should play after 4-h6?

You are probably right - I think the main problem for White is the move Nc3 as one of his ideas has to be to build up a centre with c3 and d4 - if Black can play a move like 4...h6 in the open games and doesn't get punished White should try something different.
  
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ArKheiN
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Re: A couple of annoying lines in the Bishop's Opening
Reply #2 - 08/19/09 at 05:52:36
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Ok, a quick response without even taking a board. About your first line I have to take a closer look but I think it shoud be better to White. My response is about the line 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Nc6 4.Nc3 h6. You think that it's a good waiting move. What about a good waiting move for White? For exemple 5.a3!?, a move I would play often in the Bishop/Vienna if I had the time. Your bishop c1 will not go in g5, his bishop on f8 might be on c5, so you will play Be3 to challenge his bishop, or you might do that with your Nc3. So, what is bad with 5.a3?

Or the immediate 5.Be3, because we already know it's best square.

I have a third idea for you. 5.f4 Bb4 6.Ne2!? (a classical move for the Bishop/Vienna "expert". And then, if 6..d5, 7.exd5 Nxd5 8.0-0 is challenging the knight d5, if 8..Be6, then 9.Bxd5!? Bxd5 and you get that well-known position : 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.d3 Bb4 5.Ne2 d5 6.exd5 Nxd5 7.0-0 Be6 8.Bxd5 Bxd5 9.f4, where Black would have played 9..h6?!
  
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dfan
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Re: A couple of annoying lines in the Bishop's Opening
Reply #1 - 08/19/09 at 02:48:35
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I'm not an expert, but after 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 d5 4.exd5 Nxd5 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.0-0 Bc5 White could try transposing to an Italian Game line with 7.c3, arriving at a position usually reached through 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d3 d5 6.exd5 Nxd5 7.0-0 and which White has had good results with.
  
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Crapov
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A couple of annoying lines in the Bishop's Opening
08/18/09 at 23:45:45
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For the last few years the Bishop's opening has been my main (actually only!) weapon against 1.-e5.  In short, I have a love & hate relationship with this opening. Hate because of the dead-boring positions that often come out of it, but love because of the results that it have brought me.  That said I think black has numerous good options to equalize. Even sidelines that many sources regard as dubious seem to be well playable. The lines that I'm wondering about now are:
I) 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 d5 (Larsen thought this to be dubious)
4.exd5 Nxd5 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.0-0 Bc5!? (I have faced this move a couple of times OTB and a few times in blitz. It's not as bad as it looks! 6.-Bg4 is not a bad move either)
7.Re1 0-0 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 (8.-Qh4 stirs up complications as well)
9.Rxe5 Bxf2+ 10.Kxf2 Qh4+  11.Kf1 Qf6+ 12.Qf3 Qxe5 (I have had this position a couple of times.  One game went)
13.Bxd5 c6 14.Bb3 Qxh2 15.Kf2 a5!? 16.c3 a4 (and now I blundered with 17.Bf4? Qh4+ 18.Bg3 Qd8! (threatening 19.-Qb6. But coming back to the seventeenth move, 17.Bc4? seems to loose as well after 17.-b5 18.Bxb5 Qh4+, which leaves only 17.Bd1 or 17.Bc2 when Black seems to be doing allright).
So I'm wondering where can White improve after  6.-Bc5.

II. The other line that has been annoying me may not look very scary but wait till you have to face it! :
1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Nc6 4.Nc3 h6
(I have not seen this covered and it may not seem very impressive but in my mind it's a very decent waiting move. I have actually started to play this from the Black side after numerous attempts from the White side. Now if White wants to play f2-f4 a la John Emms (in Attacking with 1.e4) then I think Black equalizes comfortably)
5.f4 Bb4 and then 6.Nf3 d5, or 6.Nge2 (not the ideal square for the Knight) simply 6.-0-0 with easy equality.
5.Nf3 seems to transpose to Giuco Pianissimo, an opening even beginners quickly get tired of. So what do you think White should play after 4-h6?
  
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