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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) KID strategical repertoire (Read 19027 times)
Michael Ayton
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Re: KID strategical repertoire
Reply #32 - 02/02/10 at 16:15:19
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Thanks for this Mikhail. I guess I tentatively thought you might not have mentioned 11 Bf2 because you thought 10 Qc2 was stronger than 10 f3 anyway! I notice that in response to 11 Bf2, the ...a6/...d5 plan I mentioned has been played with success.

Meanwhile any further discussion of these lines (esp. with 10 Qc2) would be most welcome! It seems Black has a lot of options, but is any fully satisfactory? (Maybe I am being too pessimistic!)
  
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GMGolubev
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Re: KID strategical repertoire
Reply #31 - 02/02/10 at 13:14:02
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[quote author=4D4E4442230 link=1251977841/25#25 date=1264241046]Thanks JEH. I'd be interested to know of your experiences in the 'Old' with Nge2, both against an early f2-f3 and against g2-g3. How do you find Whites tend to play the position and how do you gain sufficient counterplay, assuming you do?

I mentioned the ...exd4 KID option 'cos, if you're thwarted in going for one ...Nbd7 KID variation, it seems logical in a sense to go for another one! Truth to tell, I just stumbled across this possibility fiddling around on ChessBase! But several games (albeit not too many) have gone [1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 d6 3 Nc3 Nbd7 4 e4 e5] 5 Nge2 ed 6 Nd4 g6 7 Be2 Bg7 8 0-0 0-0 9 Be3 Re8 and, unless 6 Qd4 is good which looks doubtful, it seems a valid move order -- anyone know why not, or know why it's not too common?

McNab's games are indeed a constant source of strategic interest! Incidentally, Golubev appears not to mention 13 ...Nc5 in Kharitonov--McNab.


[i]Footnote. [/i]I've since noticed that Burgess in [i]NCO [/i]gives (in the usual move order) 8 ...exd4 as '?!' on account of 9 Nd4 Re8 10 f3 c6 11 Bf2, when 11 ...d5 doesn't work. But Golubev on ChessPub doesn't mention 11 Bf2, and in his notes to his game with Plaskett, Mikhalevski calls 10 Qc2! stronger than 10 f3 c6. Can anyone shed any light on this discrepancy? (Maybe after 11 Bf2 Black can try ...a6 and ...d5?)[/quote]

Sorry I am not sure that I examined in 2009 this particular position (before 11.Bf2), most likely I did not, therefore it is not surprising that I could not mention this 11.Bf2 move or any other moves.

[b]Apologies for delay with January update, it should be ready within several days.[/b]
  
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Stigma
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Re: KID strategical repertoire
Reply #30 - 01/28/10 at 00:45:02
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Bogojump wrote on 01/27/10 at 22:38:16:
A strategical KID repertoire could be the classical with 9.Ne1 Nfd7 10. f3 f5 11.g4!?

I agree. but I thought the point of this thread was to develop a strategic King's Indian (-ish) repertoire for Black, not White.

I'm planning a strategic/ relatively low-theory KID repertoire for Black myself. So far my plans with main sources (I haven't decided on all lines yet):

Classical: 6...Nbd7 or 7...Nbd7 (main source: Dembo in DW KID)
Fianchetto: Either switch to the Grünfeld which I have played before, or early ...c5 (Dembo DW again)
Sämisch: setup with Nbd7/a6/c5, often leading to Benkö-type positions (Bologan DVD)
5.Nge2: setup with Nbd7/a6/c5 again (Bologan DVD)
Averbakh: 6...h6 7.Le3 c5!, which looks like a complete equalizer to me (Bologan KID book)

The most serious gaps to fill are the 4 Pawns and the h3 systems. Against the 4 pawns I now believe the Benoni-style main line is clearly best, but it's extremely tactical. I'm looking into DW KID's 6...e5, but find it hard to believe.

P.S. in blitz games I've wheeled out the Byrne scheme ...a6/c6/(Nbd7)/b5 against almost anything including the Classical and the 4 Pawns! It's crap of course, but I have a ridiculously good score with it. The power of surprise...
  

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Re: KID strategical repertoire
Reply #29 - 01/27/10 at 22:38:16
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A strategical KID repertoire could be the classical with 9.Ne1 Nfd7 10. f3 f5 11.g4!?

This line is considered to be rather positional and the main aim of the move is to block the kingside and win the battle on the queenside. The move 11.g4!? is also quite annoying for KID players  because the positions that arise are quite different from many other KID positions. And it is quite easy for black players to go astray if they dont know the plans.

The book Beat the KID by Jan Markos gives this line as one of the ways to counter the KID and chesspublishing has at least one article on this variation during 2009.
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: KID strategical repertoire
Reply #28 - 01/25/10 at 02:26:35
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On reflection -- the line 5 ...c6 6 f3 Be7 transposes into a standard Old Indian line often considered a bit better for White. [i]NCO[/i] gives 7 Be3 0-0 8 d5 cd 9 cd [i]Ne8[/i] 10 Qd2 +/=. Intriguingly, it also gives 5 d5 Nc5 6 f3 a5 7 Be3 Be7 8 Qd2 0-0 9 Nge2 Ne8 (meeting both 10 Ng3 and 10 g4 with 10 ...h6!?) as equal/unclear. Alas, after 5 Nge2 Be7 White has 6 g3 as well as 6 f3 of course. I did find one game with 5 Nge2 a5!?, but it doesn't seem too likely to lead to the [i]NCO[/i] line ...

But so far, the line I like most for Black after 5 ...c6 6 f3 is 6 ...a6!? 7 Be3 b5, leaving the KB at home for the moment and aiming to disrupt White with immediate queenside play -- e.g. 8 d5 Nb6!?, or 8 Ng3 b4 9 Nce2 c5. Looks v. interesting to me! I can actually only find five games or so in this line -- scope for further research?
« Last Edit: 01/25/10 at 10:03:13 by Michael Ayton »  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: KID strategical repertoire
Reply #27 - 01/24/10 at 23:19:53
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@ MNb

Thanks. I too had wondered about delaying developing the KB, in fact, but hadn't got round to mentioning it! I'm suspecting meanwhile that Kharitonov-McNab is good for White after 16 Nc2, though I guess Black has one or two other options anyway.
  
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MNb
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Re: KID strategical repertoire
Reply #26 - 01/23/10 at 20:29:56
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What about 1 d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3 Nbd7 4.e4 e5 5.Nge2 c6, intending 6.f3 Be7 and only 6.g3 g6 ? Of course you better prepare the first, but 7.Be3 0-0 8.d5 (8.Qd2 d5!?) cxd5 9.cxd5 a5 followed by ...Nc5 looks quite playable. If White castles Black will play ...a4 and ...Qa5. If not perhaps too (Zhu Chen-Dumitrache), but there is also the typical exchange manoeuvre ...Ne8; ...h6; and ...Bg5.
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: KID strategical repertoire
Reply #25 - 01/23/10 at 10:04:06
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Thanks JEH. I'd be interested to know of your experiences in the 'Old' with Nge2, both against an early f2-f3 and against g2-g3. How do you find Whites tend to play the position and how do you gain sufficient counterplay, assuming you do?

I mentioned the ...exd4 KID option 'cos, if you're thwarted in going for one ...Nbd7 KID variation, it seems logical in a sense to go for another one! Truth to tell, I just stumbled across this possibility fiddling around on ChessBase! But several games (albeit not too many) have gone [1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 d6 3 Nc3 Nbd7 4 e4 e5] 5 Nge2 ed 6 Nd4 g6 7 Be2 Bg7 8 0-0 0-0 9 Be3 Re8 and, unless 6 Qd4 is good which looks doubtful, it seems a valid move order -- anyone know why not, or know why it's not too common?

McNab's games are indeed a constant source of strategic interest! Incidentally, Golubev appears not to mention 13 ...Nc5 in Kharitonov--McNab.


[i]Footnote. [/i]I've since noticed that Burgess in [i]NCO [/i]gives (in the usual move order) 8 ...exd4 as '?!' on account of 9 Nd4 Re8 10 f3 c6 11 Bf2, when 11 ...d5 doesn't work. But Golubev on ChessPub doesn't mention 11 Bf2, and in his notes to his game with Plaskett, Mikhalevski calls 10 Qc2! stronger than 10 f3 c6. Can anyone shed any light on this discrepancy? (Maybe after 11 Bf2 Black can try ...a6 and ...d5?)
« Last Edit: 01/23/10 at 13:40:15 by Michael Ayton »  
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JEH
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Re: KID strategical repertoire
Reply #24 - 01/23/10 at 08:12:32
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I'd think more stodgy than sexy for the Nbd7 KID  ;)

[quote author=787B7177160 link=1251977841/23#23 date=1264210245] In the 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 d6 3 Nc3 Nbd7 4 e4 e5 move order, though, 5 Nge2 seems a bit of a pain. An E86 Saemisch isn't everyone's cup of tea and GM Golubev's notes here on ChessPub suggest it's a bit better for White anyway. Do you go for an Old Indian here, JEH? Solid enough I suppose, but still +/=?
[/quote]

I have only played against a Saemisch once, when I got tricked into it via 1. d4 d6 2. Bg5. I got squished. So basically I avoid it. I've not had to ponder the above move order as I only rarely go for the early Nf6, but basically the plan is to go Old if I don't fancy to go King's. 

[quote author=787B7177160 link=1251977841/23#23 date=1264210245] 
I guess there is a third alternative? -- 5 ...ed 6 Nd4 g6, heading for the ...exd4 line in the ...Nd7 KID that McNab plays a lot (see e.g. Kharitonov--McNab). Can White profitably prevent this?[/quote]

Colin McNab is a player who's games and repertoire I've gone through as a strategical player. 

  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: KID strategical repertoire
Reply #23 - 01/23/10 at 01:30:45
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Interesting thread. I'm getting interested in this sexy ...Nd7 KID! In the 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 d6 3 Nc3 Nbd7 4 e4 e5 move order, though, 5 Nge2 seems a bit of a pain. An E86 Saemisch isn't everyone's cup of tea and GM Golubev's notes here on ChessPub suggest it's a bit better for White anyway. Do you go for an Old Indian here, JEH? Solid enough I suppose, but still +/=?

I guess there is a third alternative? -- 5 ...ed 6 Nd4 g6, heading for the ...exd4 line in the ...Nd7 KID that McNab plays a lot (see e.g. Kharitonov--McNab). Can White profitably prevent this?
  
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JEH
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Re: KID strategical repertoire
Reply #22 - 01/20/10 at 09:51:48
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Holbox wrote on 01/20/10 at 08:40:05:
Via 2...e5 and allowing the endgame as recomended by Y&T? 
Thx


1. d4 d6 2. c4 e5 has been a staple for many years. I really like the queenless middlegame that might occur and it scores well for me. 

However I sometimes do go for Be7 without g6, but less often. KID is fine for me.

But yes, 1. d4 Nf6 if you don't like Pirc/Modern/Philidor transposition or just want the option to change later.

Ironically I play the Pirc move order to allow me to change my Queens pawn defence sometime, but I think I'd be more likely to drop the Pirc than the KID. 

Whereas I'd always met d4 with either d6 or e6 , to avoid the other Queens pawn openings and sidelines. Nothing to fear here though. I like the Dembo book.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: KID strategical repertoire
Reply #21 - 01/20/10 at 08:40:05
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JEH,

I like both the KID and the Old Indian but at this moment I don't want to play the Pirc. I want to give a try to the QD6 Scandinavian in OTB games. I'm interested to know how do you avoid the 4PA and the Samisch? Via 2...e5 and allowing the endgame as recomended by Y&T? or by not playing ...g6 at all with ideas of ...Be7-g5?

Thx
  

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JEH
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Re: KID strategical repertoire
Reply #20 - 01/17/10 at 13:22:59
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MNb wrote on 01/17/10 at 12:09:26:
JEH wrote on 01/16/10 at 10:05:18:

Another useful facet of Nbd7 is that it allows me to enter the KID via 1. ...d6, and avoid a whole host of tricky White systems by playing Nbd7 early, and only playing Nf6 after White has gone Nf3. No Samisch, no 4PA, no Averbach, no Nge2 systems etc.

Doesn't Black achieve the same with 1.d4 Nf6 and 2...d6 ? 


An old school move order, which I quite like, delaying g6 and "threatening" an Old Indian, but less options for Black I think. Also you need a line vs the Tromp. 



  

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Re: KID strategical repertoire
Reply #19 - 01/17/10 at 12:09:26
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JEH wrote on 01/16/10 at 10:05:18:

Another useful facet of Nbd7 is that it allows me to enter the KID via 1. ...d6, and avoid a whole host of tricky White systems by playing Nbd7 early, and only playing Nf6 after White has gone Nf3. No Samisch, no 4PA, no Averbach, no Nge2 systems etc.

Doesn't Black achieve the same with 1.d4 Nf6 and 2...d6 ? Of course if you already have 1.e4 d6 in your repertoire it is sometimes nice to play ...f5 later, especially vs. the Queen Pawn's stuff.
There is a Dutch book on the KID that deals with ...Nbd7 mainly. Besides being in a not so common language it is almost 30 years old. It's not a repertoire book though. At the other hand, if you can find it and don't mind reading an old chess book in a foreign language, it's written by Van der Sterren.
  

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Re: KID strategical repertoire
Reply #18 - 01/16/10 at 10:05:18
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I like to play a strategical KID, yet I still get a decent share of Kingside attacks. It seems that a lot of players are attracted to the KID via sac, sac, mate del Plata, but not me.

If you read Gallagher's books, he seems to want this sort of activty in all lines, and so hates the Exchange and Fianchetto variations. These do not worry me at all. OK, maybe tiny advantage for white, or best hopes of dull equality for Black. I will not let my mind be bothered by that theortical issue, and get on with the practical game. At my level, there are enough mistakes for things to be interesting.

I like the Nbd7 Classical KID. I've studied Nc6, but never tried to really memorise or play the variations. I've dabbled with Na6 (based on Gallagher's book). I see the logic for the argument for why Na6 is meant to better than Nbd7, but don't see it in practice.

I like that there's not been a repertoire book (well not one I've found, except maybe for DWs) on Nbd7 as it forced me to do my own study. I studied it by, well initially not really knowing what I was doing, and eventually by fishing out games, especially annotated ones, with Chessbase from GMs/IMs who use it. There are plenty, and they still continue to. So I would look at what repertoires they used. There seemed to be a number of options, which is something I like to see when playing an opening.

I like the Yelena Dembo DW coverage of Nbd7. I saw these lines appearing from my Chessbase repertoire scans and coverage on this site, and it was nice to see a bit more explanation behind it. I've got her anti-KID book too, so I guess she's got me covered now  Cool

Another useful facet of Nbd7 is that it allows me to enter the KID via 1. ...d6, and avoid a whole host of tricky White systems by playing Nbd7 early, and only playing Nf6 after White has gone Nf3. No Samisch, no 4PA, no Averbach, no Nge2 systems etc.

The downside, if you can call it that, is that White can go 2. e4. Now the hope here is that a d4 player is far less prepared and experienced in this than an e4 player. Not always true. I seem to get more d4 players going for e4 lately. But Black doesn't need to play a Pirc/modern here. One d4 player said he'd spent the morning preparing a 150 attack against my Pirc, but after 1. d4 d6 2. e4 Nf6 3. Nc3 c6, he was totally out of water    Cool

But I digress. Sometimes I think the KID is just positionally busted and you need to get some tactics (which somehow seem to materialise by magic   Cool) and so how can you play it strategically? Well  this seems to work out in practice. White doesn't seem to have perfected an antidote so far.

So I get mostly Nbd7 classicals, Fianchettos (I like to play it old school style, but there are options), and for the wimp outs, Londons and e3 systems (thank you for the equality). Playing this move order might not suit your repertoire, but I think it's fine even if you have hopes of a GM title  Smiley
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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