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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Karjakin-Shirov Topalov line 2009 (Read 10279 times)
Cougar64
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Re: Karjakin-Shirov Topalov line 2009
Reply #15 - 10/06/09 at 17:21:39
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I really don't understand the idea besides 13...e6, which is for me too slow...
13...a5 looks like the logical move with a very great play for black
  
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Re: Karjakin-Shirov Topalov line 2009
Reply #14 - 10/06/09 at 14:58:41
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This game was played today where Radjabov lost agianst Javenko in a not that critial line where black made a misake and was slowly grinded down.

[Event "2nd Pearl Spring"]
[Site "Nanjing CHN"]
[Date "2009.10.06"]
[Round "8"]
[White "Jakovenko, D"]
[Black "Radjabov, T"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B78"]
[TimeControl "300"]
[PlyCount "143"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 Nc6 8.
Qd2 O-O 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. O-O-O Rc8 11. Bb3 Nxd4 12. Bxd4 b5 13. h4 e6 (13. ..
a5 {has alwasy been my preference when} 14. e5 {is more or less forced})
14. a3 a5 15. h5 Qe7 16. hxg6 hxg6 17. g4 b4 18. axb4 axb4 19. Na2 Ra8 20.
g5 (20. Kb1 {is also possible} Ba4 21. Bxa4 Rxa4 22. b3 Ra5 23. Nxb4 Qc7
24. Kb2 Rfa8) 20. .. Nh5 21. Bxg7 Kxg7 22. Qxd6 Qxd6 23. Rxd6 Ba4 24. Bc4
Rfc8 25. b3 Bb5 26. Bxb5 Rxa2 {from here black is slowly drifting into a
worse and worse position} 27. Rh2 Rc5 (27. .. Rc3 28. Rd4 Rxf3 29. Rxb4 Rg3
30. Ra4 Rg1+ 31. Kd2 Rxa4 32. bxa4 {white is better}) (27. .. Ra1+ 28. Kb2
Rca8 29. Ba4 Rf1 30. Rb6 Ra5 31. Rxb4 Rxg5 32. Rd4 Rxf3 33. b4 {white is
better}) 28. Kb1 Ra5 29. Bc4 Rxg5 30. Rb6 Nf4 31. Rxb4 Rg3 32. Rf2 Rh5 33.
Rb7 Kf6 (33. .. Rhh3 34. b4 Rxf3 ... 35. Rxf3 Rxf3 36. b5 {white wins}) 34.
Kb2 g5 (34. .. Rhh3) 35. b4 Rh8 36. b5 Ke5 {black is lost allready here}
37. b6 Kd4 38. Rc7 Rb8 39. b7 Rxb7+ 40. Rxb7 Kxc4 41. Rxf7 Kd4 42. Ra7 Ke3
43. Rf1 Ng6 44. e5 Kf4 45. Ra4+ Kf5 46. c4 Nxe5 47. c5 Rh3 48. Rd4 Kf6 49.
Rc1 Rh7 50. Rc3 Rc7 51. Kb3 Nc6 52. Rd6 Ke7 53. Re3 Nd8 54. Kb4 Rc8 55. Ra6
Nc6+ 56. Kb5 Nd4+ 57. Kc4 Nc6 58. Rb6 Kf6 59. Rc3 Ke5 60. Kb5 Nd4+ 61. Ka6
Kf4 62. Kb7 Rf8 63. c6 e5 64. c7 Nxf3 65. c8=Q Rxc8 66. Rxc8 g4 67. Rf8+
Kg3 68. Re6 Kg2 69. Rg8 Kh3 70. Kb6 Nd2 71. Rh6+ Kg3 72. Kc5 1-0
  
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Re: Karjakin-Shirov Topalov line 2009
Reply #13 - 09/10/09 at 06:10:48
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Swiss_Dragon wrote on 09/08/09 at 08:33:51:
Cougar64 wrote on 09/07/09 at 20:43:30:
OK after 28.g4!,  fixing blacks pawns i think black will suffer in the endgame. My fritz also show a big advantage for white. Maybe black can hold the endgame but it's far from equality.


How is it possible that your Fritz gives a big advantage for White after 28.g4 whereas my Fritz (version 11) evaluates the position as +0.1? I would start by trading one pair of rooks. Since Black has the more compact pawn structure White will have a hard time to defend his pawns and push his b-pawn at the same time. This becomes even more visible if Black succeeds to exchange his f- or h-pawn against White's g-pawn.
A sample line runs 28...Rc1 29.Rd2 R7c2 30.Rxc2 Rxc2 31.Rb8+ Kf7 32.b4 f5!? 33.gxf5 Rc3+ 34.Kf4 Rc4+ 35.Kg5 Rd4 and easy draw.

Another way of defending is 28...h5 29.Rh1 (after 29.gxh5 Rh2 Black has no problems at all) hxg4 30.Rxg4 Kf7 31.Rh7+ Kf8, but White seems to have some chances here with two rooks on the board.


The reason that Fritz 11 gives a much more reasonable evaluation than previous versions is that at least Fritz 9 and 10 had a built-in bias that heavily favoured the party with apparent attacking chances. I have used all of these versions and heed my words (I have learned it the hard way): Fritz 9 and 10 is unusable as serious analysis tools.
  
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Re: Karjakin-Shirov Topalov line 2009
Reply #12 - 09/08/09 at 15:47:40
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OK you're right, when black exchange a pair of rooks the endgame seems to be draw...
  
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Re: Karjakin-Shirov Topalov line 2009
Reply #11 - 09/08/09 at 08:33:51
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Cougar64 wrote on 09/07/09 at 20:43:30:
OK after 28.g4!,  fixing blacks pawns i think black will suffer in the endgame. My fritz also show a big advantage for white. Maybe black can hold the endgame but it's far from equality.


How is it possible that your Fritz gives a big advantage for White after 28.g4 whereas my Fritz (version 11) evaluates the position as +0.1? I would start by trading one pair of rooks. Since Black has the more compact pawn structure White will have a hard time to defend his pawns and push his b-pawn at the same time. This becomes even more visible if Black succeeds to exchange his f- or h-pawn against White's g-pawn.
A sample line runs 28...Rc1 29.Rd2 R7c2 30.Rxc2 Rxc2 31.Rb8+ Kf7 32.b4 f5!? 33.gxf5 Rc3+ 34.Kf4 Rc4+ 35.Kg5 Rd4 and easy draw.

Another way of defending is 28...h5 29.Rh1 (after 29.gxh5 Rh2 Black has no problems at all) hxg4 30.Rxg4 Kf7 31.Rh7+ Kf8, but White seems to have some chances here with two rooks on the board.
  
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Re: Karjakin-Shirov Topalov line 2009
Reply #10 - 09/07/09 at 20:43:30
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OK after 28.g4!,  fixing blacks pawns i think black will suffer in the endgame. My fritz also show a big advantage for white. Maybe black can hold the endgame but it's far from equality.
  
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Re: Karjakin-Shirov Topalov line 2009
Reply #9 - 09/07/09 at 20:37:58
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Cougar64 wrote on 09/07/09 at 19:56:56:
23...Rfc8 looks interesting, but i think what white keep always a little initiative : 24.Rh4 Qb6 ( not f6 like you write because of Qxb4+-) 25.Re1 with the idea Kf2-g3, += : b4 is weak, and there's always some counterplay on black king....


23...Rfc8 24.Rh4 f6 25.Qxb4 Qxb4 26.Rxb4 Bxc2 27.Bxc2 Rxc2 and the ending looks drawish. 
Once queens are exchanged Black is happy to take on c2. That's one reason why I want to put both rooks to the c-file.
  
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Re: Karjakin-Shirov Topalov line 2009
Reply #8 - 09/07/09 at 19:56:56
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23...Rfc8 looks interesting, but i think what white keep always a little initiative : 24.Rh4 Qb6 ( not f6 like you write because of Qxb4+-) 25.Re1 with the idea Kf2-g3, += : b4 is weak, and there's always some counterplay on black king....
  
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Re: Karjakin-Shirov Topalov line 2009
Reply #7 - 09/07/09 at 19:04:32
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I found these games on 365chess.com. They were both played in 2008. The critical game is Negi-Konguvel.
I think that 23...Rfc8 improves for Black. For example 24.Ra1 Qb6 (threatening 25...Rc3+) 25.Rh4 f6 and the position looks roughly equal. Also after 24.Rh4 Black plays 24...f6.
  
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Re: Karjakin-Shirov Topalov line 2009
Reply #6 - 09/07/09 at 18:57:43
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Yes, and here played in my opinion the strong 21.Kd2!

[Event "46th ch-IND National A"]
[Site "Mangalore IND"]
[Date "2008.12.22"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Negi, P."]
[Black "Konguvel, P."]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B78"]
[WhiteElo "2597"]
[BlackElo "2463"]
[PlyCount "57"]
[EventDate "2008.12.17"]
[EventType "tourn"]
[EventRounds "11"]
[EventCountry "IND"]
[EventCategory "9"]
[Source "Mark Crowther"]
[SourceDate "2008.12.23"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2
Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. O-O-O Rc8 11. Bb3 Nxd4 12. Bxd4 b5 13. Nd5 Nxd5 14. Bxg7
Kxg7 15. exd5 a5 16. a3 b4 17. axb4 axb4 18. h4 Kg8 19. h5 Qa5 20. Qd4 Bf5 21.
Kd2 Rc5 22. hxg6 Bxg6 23. Ke3 Qb5 24. Kf2 Rfc8 25. Kg3 Qd7 26. Qe3 R5c7 27. Rd4
Qb5 28. Rg4 Rf8 29. Qh6 1-0

  
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Re: Karjakin-Shirov Topalov line 2009
Reply #5 - 09/07/09 at 18:44:03
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Cougar64 wrote on 09/07/09 at 16:09:20:
Sorry I'm new on this forum I don't know how to post games....

Negi's idea is that on 17...b4 he takes only one time : 18.axb4 axb4 19.h5!, and next he does a very interesting plan transfering the king on g3, black counterplay is difficult.


Welcome to the forum Smiley.

To attack pgn select a file hte textbox under attack or else you can post it as plain text using for exampel ctrl+c in Fritz to get in into memory and than ctrl + v so pasted it inte the textbox

h5 is also Khalifmans line (taking pawn gives black a strong attack) but it stops after black queen to a5. White must play Qd4 to avoid mate and lose of b 2 pawn after black plays Bf5 and white can play many moves...
  
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Re: Karjakin-Shirov Topalov line 2009
Reply #4 - 09/07/09 at 16:09:20
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Sorry I'm new on this forum I don't know how to post games....

Negi's idea is that on 17...b4 he takes only one time : 18.axb4 axb4 19.h5!, and next he does a very interesting plan transfering the king on g3, black counterplay is difficult.
  
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Re: Karjakin-Shirov Topalov line 2009
Reply #3 - 09/07/09 at 11:05:58
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It seems difficult to improve upon Karjakin's play. Maybe it's worth to investigate 18.Kb1!? with the idea 18...b4 19.axb4 axb4 20.Qxb4 Qa8 21.Rxe7, although 20...Re8 seems acceptable for Black.
The alternative 18...a4 19.Ba2 Bf5 20.Rc1 h5 21.Ka1 Qc7 22.c3 looks better for White.
  
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Re: Karjakin-Shirov Topalov line 2009
Reply #2 - 09/07/09 at 07:28:00
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Can you post those games? Khalifman does not like 17 h4 (he calls it ?!) becouse of b4 where he claims that black has a very promessing position quating Javenko-Hoffmann 2004. But on the other hand Khalifman does not mention Rc5 as played in the game.
  
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Re: Karjakin-Shirov Topalov line 2009
Reply #1 - 09/06/09 at 20:22:15
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I think that after 17.h4!, like in the Negi's games ( Negi-Berdnt & Negi-Konguvel) white have a strong attack...
  
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