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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6 (Read 31711 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #7 - 08/10/11 at 22:40:52
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I agree that Black seems to give up more options than he gains with this move order, but I can see a psychological advantage to playing 1...Nf6 and 2...c6 if White doesn't know you're a Slav player.

I'm not as negative about Black's slightly idiosyncratic move order as Eric is, but I agree with his sentiment that it doesn't make much objective sense. Unless....

The only possibility that you gain as Black is that you may want to try some sort of Indian defense without d5. If you have such a line in your arsenal, this move order makes sense.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #6 - 08/10/11 at 21:39:08
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This has been discussed before, though I can't seem to find the link with a quick search.  I'll say the same thing I said in that thread: I don't understand the point.  What is Black trying to avoid with this move order?  What is he trying to gain?

By playing 1.d4 Nf6 White has the option of 2.Bg5.  He can also play 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c6 3.Bf4 when 3...d5 4.e3 looks quite boring and uninspiring to me (for Black).  What have you gained?  If you play 3...d6 you've avoided the Slav, the opening you were trying to play.  Congratulations.

After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 d5 White can still play everything he could have played if you had started with 1...d5.  The Exchange, the Dutch, the Slow Slav, etc.  Same thing after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 d5, White can play 4.e3, 4.cxd5, 4.Nf3, 4.Bg5, etc...you've gained absolutely nothing by this move order.  In fact, you've lost quite a few options as TN pointed out.  Yippee.

Soo...I suppose the only thing you've "gained" is that you've avoided 1.d4 d5 2.Bg5 and 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4.  Of course, that depends on what you plan on playing after 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bf4 and 2.Nf3 intending 3.Bf4 or 3.Bg5.  If you're going to play ...d5 anyway, you've gained nothing.  I guess you've avoided 1.d4 d5 2.e4, but not 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e4 or 3.Bg5; congratulations again. 

Sorry if I sound rude but I'd honestly like to know what the point of this move order is, it seems to merely limit Black's options while allowing White extra ones.  In other words, it's not good.
  
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TN
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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #5 - 08/10/11 at 21:26:39
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Anonymous3 wrote on 08/10/11 at 20:06:32:
Wouldn't getting into the Slav (or Semi-Slav) via 1...Nf6 actually be a better move-order (if you not going to play something like 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 dxc4) since some players will meet 1...Nf6 with 2.Bg5 but 1...d5 with 2.c4 and by playing 1...Nf6 you've gotten him into a weaker opening?

Also, After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c6, some players will think that this move-order must be wrong and  try to punish Black with something like 3.Bf4?! (like tracke suggested), 3.Bg5?!, or 3.d5?! which are all dubious.

I think 3.Bf4?! can be met by 3...d6 but I think 3...Qb6 is best. If White tries the gambit 4.Nc3!? Qxb2 5.Bd2, 5...Qb6 is one move that is at least ok for Black.

Against 3.g3, I think 3...d5, transposing to a fairly harmless Slav, is best. 3...d6 may be playable but what does theory say about a fianchetto approach against the Old Indian?

I think Black has several interesting ways to meet 3.Bg5?! and after 3...Ne4 4.Bf4, Black has 4...e5!. (5.Bxe5?? Bb4+; 5.dxe5 Qb6)



It's not a better move order, just different. Also by playing a ...Nf6 move order to reach the Slav, you give up the options of the Triangle, Noteboom, Argentinian Variation and 3.Nf3 dc4.
  

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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #4 - 08/10/11 at 20:06:32
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Wouldn't getting into the Slav (or Semi-Slav) via 1...Nf6 actually be a better move-order (if you not going to play something like 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 dxc4) since some players will meet 1...Nf6 with 2.Bg5 but 1...d5 with 2.c4 and by playing 1...Nf6 you've gotten him into a weaker opening?

Also, After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c6, some players will think that this move-order must be wrong and  try to punish Black with something like 3.Bf4?! (like tracke suggested), 3.Bg5?!, or 3.d5?! which are all dubious.

I think 3.Bf4?! can be met by 3...d6 but I think 3...Qb6 is best. If White tries the gambit 4.Nc3!? Qxb2 5.Bd2, 5...Qb6 is one move that is at least ok for Black.

Against 3.g3, I think 3...d5, transposing to a fairly harmless Slav, is best. 3...d6 may be playable but what does theory say about a fianchetto approach against the Old Indian?

I think Black has several interesting ways to meet 3.Bg5?! and after 3...Ne4 4.Bf4, Black has 4...e5!. (5.Bxe5?? Bb4+; 5.dxe5 Qb6)

  
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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #3 - 09/10/09 at 08:09:06
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I think the main question is: Why should Black do it? The move order with 1...Nf6, 2...e6, 3...d5 makes sense since most players who use this move order are planning to play the Nimzo against 3.Nc3 and the QGD against 3.Nf3, having avoided the QGD exchange. I don't see what you gain by playing 1...Nf6, 2...c6 (except from the surprise factor), while, as TN said, White gets the opportunity to play 3.Nc3 without fearing 3...dxc4 (or 3...e5).

I'd also like to add that 2.Bg5 is considered better against 1...Nf6 than against 1...d5 (after 1.d4 d5 2.Bg5, you have other possibilities than 2...Nf6), so White has an extra opportunity there as well.
  
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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #2 - 09/09/09 at 10:46:34
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I don't see why you should have any problems with playing the Slav via. a 1...Nf6 move order.

The first important point is that if White plays 2.Nf3, 2.Bg5 or something similar, you can just play 2...d5 to transpose back to 1...d5 variations.

The second point is that after 2.c4 c6, if White plays 3.Bf4 or 3.g3, you can consider 3...d6!? followed by 4...Nbd7/5...e5 when Black is doing okay in this Old Indian setup. Against the unusual 3.Bg5, 3...Ne4 4.Bf4 d5 with a Trompowsky/London-like game should be equal, and 4...Qb6 is not bad either.

The third point is that if you normally play 3.Nc3 dc4 variation via the normal Slav move-order, White avoids this via the 1...Nf6 move order, and therefore you need something prepared for the 'Anti-Meran' move order 3.Nc3 d5 4.e3.

Other than that, there aren't any differences to playing 1...Nf6/2...c6/3...d5 compared to 1...d5/2...c6/3...Nf6.
  

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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #1 - 09/09/09 at 08:12:49
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The only try for white to take use of black´s move order seems to be 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c6 3.Bf4 d5 4.e3 (+= ?!) Then black is solid but a little bit passive as white has managed to play his dark-coloured bishop out of the pawn chain without giving black oppurtunity to take the undefended pawn c4 (black´s main theme of counterplay in the slav!) Kramnik has played this as white. Of course black isn´t forced to play 3...d5, he can play 3...g6 or 3...d6. But in these KID versus London setups Bf4 is probably more useful than c6.

tracke  Smiley
  
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Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
09/09/09 at 06:35:50
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Apologies in advance if this is in the wrong forum; this forum seemed like a better fit than d-pawn specials.

One often sees players getting into the QGD via 1. ... Nf6, 2. ... e6, and 3. ... d5.  This can be useful because it keeps White guessing whether Black will try to play a Nimzo, Bogo, Benoni, etc.

But one never sees players getting into the Slav via 1. d4 Nf6. 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 d5.  In part, this has to do with the fact that the move order may be pointless, as about the only follow up after 2. .. c6 is 3. .. d5.

But my question is:  Is there any way in which White can punish Black for using this move order?
  
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