Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6 (Read 29002 times)
Straggler
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 343
Joined: 08/09/09
Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #37 - 12/22/16 at 21:46:53
Post Tools
I'm reviving this old thread partly because it was amusing, but mainly because I'm actually interested in the OP's question. (Probably more interested than he was: he doesn't seem to have logged in since before the first reply to his question was posted.) I'll try to explain why.

Against 1.d4 I usually play 1...d5. Against 2.c4 I play both the Slav and the QGD. I don't know much theory and nor do my opponents, so we are usually out of the books by about move 8. If I could pick a main-line defence that I'd like to be in at that stage it would probably be the Semi-Slav, though I don't have any clear idea of how I intend to get there.

But a large proportion of my 1.d4-playing opponents -- probably as many as half -- don't play 2.c4, or even 2.Nf3 and 3.c4. In particular, 2.Bf4 is all the rage.

Now I know 2.Bf4 is not reckoned to be White's most challenging option; I just hate facing it. I have spent a good deal of time searching for a line I like, without much success. But in the course of this exercise I noticed that 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bf4 is less promising because of 2...c5! So I started wondering whether I could start with 1...Nf6, without having to learn one of the Indian defences (which really would be overkill).

I don't mind facing the Tromp. I don't under-estimate it, but at least it's easy to get an interesting position.

1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.Bf4 doesn't bother me quite so much, because 3...c5 followed by ...Nc6 and ...Qb6 seems to be a line that London players find depressing, and the main reason why 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 is now preferred to 2.Nf3 and 3.Bf4. Besides, I could try 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5, which I rather like. I know this can turn into a Benko Declined, but learning it would be a much more manageable proposition than the whole of the Benko.

That's why I'm considering 1...Nf6. After 2.c4 I would probably play 2...c6 rather than 2...e6, because I'd prefer not to play the Nimzo or to defend an Exchange QGD. So is there a snag?

After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4, my database includes about 5700 games with 2...c6. It has been played occasionally by lots of top GMs. Movsesian plays it quite a lot. I don't suppose he is as concerned about the London system as I am, but presumably he has reasons of his own; and presumably he doesn't think this move order has any major drawbacks. If 3.Bf4 is a drawback, as tracke suggested, it's a little-known one: it was played in little more than 100 of those 5700 games. White nearly always plays 3.Nc3 or 3.Nf3, and the game turns into an ordinary Slav.

So, although this move order may have no theoretical advantages, I think that for me it could be a useful practical weapon.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gewgaw
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 680
Location: europe
Joined: 09/09/04
Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #36 - 04/30/12 at 17:46:56
Post Tools
ErictheRed wrote on 04/30/12 at 15:30:36:
Reading through this thread again gave me a bunch of warm fuzzies Smiley.  I love this place  Roll Eyes

Gewgaw, 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d5 (or 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nf6) is usually called the Marshall Defense and not considered a good move order for Black.


Yes, okay, it was just a brief thought....Smiley
  

The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Online


USCF National Master

Posts: 2503
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #35 - 04/30/12 at 15:30:36
Post Tools
Reading through this thread again gave me a bunch of warm fuzzies Smiley.  I love this place  Roll Eyes

Gewgaw, 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d5 (or 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nf6) is usually called the Marshall Defense and not considered a good move order for Black.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4655
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #34 - 04/30/12 at 15:26:28
Post Tools
gewgaw wrote on 04/30/12 at 15:09:13:
I´m not sure, if this thread is spoilt already, but when reading the pros and cons about different move orders, suddenly 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d5 3.cd5 g6 came to my mind. Isn´t this a good move order for Black to play the Grunfeld, where White already lost some important options?


If I were you I'd be concerned about Qa4+.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gewgaw
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 680
Location: europe
Joined: 09/09/04
Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #33 - 04/30/12 at 15:09:13
Post Tools
I´m not sure, if this thread is spoilt already, but when reading the pros and cons about different move orders, suddenly 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d5 3.cd5 g6 came to my mind. Isn´t this a good move order for Black to play the Grunfeld, where White already lost some important options?
  

The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10519
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #32 - 04/30/12 at 10:00:06
Post Tools
Thanks for confirming that you're a troll.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Anonymous3
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 305
Joined: 08/15/08
Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #31 - 04/30/12 at 01:08:54
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 08/22/11 at 11:46:05:
Anonymous3 wrote on 08/22/11 at 04:17:52:
First of all EricthheRed, I don't understand why you are so hyped up about this subject.

First I don't understand why you think Eric is hyped up.
Second I don't care what you think the preferences of your opponents might or might not be. It's all pseudopsychological speculation based on vague assumptions.
Last I think you should not ask this question

Jeffrey wrote on 09/09/09 at 06:35:50:
Is there any way in which White can punish Black for using this move order?


and then dislike Eric's answer, which is full of arguments. That's what a forum is about: asking a question and getting answers you don't (want to) accept.
If you are still going to reach the Slav via 1...Nf6 I am pretty sure Eric won't lose a second of his sleep. He just gives his opinion, which happens to be mine too.


MNb, I don't understand how you don't understand why I think Eric is hyped up.

Also, I just wanted to get this post back to the top.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OrangeCounty
Full Member
***
Offline


You played that like it
was a good move!

Posts: 171
Joined: 05/26/10
Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #30 - 08/31/11 at 18:12:17
Post Tools
If you play the Slav against 1 c4, as a Slav player against 1. d4 generally does, the 1...Nf6 move order has the advantage of missing the e2-e4 lines, as was mentioned, and also allows Black to play other things, of which ...e5 and ...Bb4 is the best example.  1 ...c6 is more committal.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10519
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #29 - 08/26/11 at 20:33:26
Post Tools
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/26/11 at 18:38:24:
Andreikin-Aronian ( World Blitz, 2010) went 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 c6 3.e4 d5 (3...e5 invites King's Indian and Old Indian positions, as I mentioned earlier) 4.e5 Ne4 (4...d4 5.ef6 dc3 6. bc3 and I definitely prefer White in a practical game.)

Yes, but Volcanor wants Black to play 2...e5 3.Nf3 Nc6 and evt. 4...Bb4 here. Only after 2.g3 he recommends 2...c6 again. I'd say that it's an interesting suggestion. I'd like to know the opinion of Slav adherents.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #28 - 08/26/11 at 18:38:24
Post Tools
Andreikin-Aronian ( World Blitz, 2010) went 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 c6 3.e4 d5 (3...e5 invites King's Indian and Old Indian positions, as I mentioned earlier) 4.e5 Ne4 (4...d4 5.ef6 dc3 6. bc3 and I definitely prefer White in a practical game.)

Of course, the discussion of this type of position is quite some distance from the OP's question and Anonymous' assertions. But then, it's also more interesting.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Volcanor
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 61
Location: Switzerland
Joined: 03/16/09
Gender: Male
Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #27 - 08/26/11 at 14:13:36
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 08/25/11 at 13:35:09:
This is an interesting argument, though I would not recommend 3.Nf3 Bb4 4.Nxe5 to Black.
What about 1.c4 Nf6 2.g3 ?

You're right. After 3.Nf3 Nc6 seems better than Bb4. But I'm sure you got my point. To answer your question, I'd recommand 1.c4 Nf6 2. g3 c6, soon followed by d5.

I think that if Black is happy by his positions after both 1.c4 Nf6 2.d4 c6 and 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e5, it's an interesting move order against the English.

But as previously mentioned, nothing comes for free. I personnally don't like it, because of 1.c4 Nf6 2.d4 c6 3.Nc3 d5 4.e3. As I like to play the dxc4 Slav, I'm outside my repertoire. But if you're happy with 4...e6 (Meran) or 4...a6, I think it's fine for Black.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10519
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #26 - 08/25/11 at 13:35:09
Post Tools
Volcanor wrote on 08/25/11 at 07:45:06:
IBlack can play 2...e5 and argue that White has been commited to Nc3 and that 3...Bb4 will follow.

This is an interesting argument, though I would not recommend 3.Nf3 Bb4 4.Nxe5 to Black.
What about 1.c4 Nf6 2.g3 ?
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Volcanor
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 61
Location: Switzerland
Joined: 03/16/09
Gender: Male
Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #25 - 08/25/11 at 07:45:06
Post Tools
If we speak about the position after 2 moves (i.e. 1.d4 Nf6 2. c4 c6), it's interesting to note that this position can be reached through 1.c4 Nf6 2.d4 c6. And this move order makes sense both theoretically and pratically if Black wants to play the Slav against the English.

Black avoids the Steiner/Panov from the Caro-Kann that he has to face after 1.c4 c6 2.e4. Of course, Black has to deal with 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3, with the idea 2...c6 3.e4 and we're back in a Steiner/Panov. But Black can play 2...e5 and argue that White has been commited to Nc3 and that 3...Bb4 will follow.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TN
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 3420
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #24 - 08/24/11 at 21:29:56
Post Tools
You can also get into the Slav via. 1...c6. However there aren't really any advantages to this move order, and you also limit your options against the queen's pawn openings (without an early c4)

1...c6 does give Black the extra option of 2.c4 b5 as analysed by Rogers in SOS, but this is just garbage.
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Anonymous3
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 305
Joined: 08/15/08
Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #23 - 08/24/11 at 21:16:04
Post Tools
I'd be intersted to hear what GM Tony Kosten's thoughts are on reaching the Slav via 1...Nf6.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo