Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6 (Read 31695 times)
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2514
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #22 - 08/22/11 at 17:33:50
Post Tools
I just feel bad for Jeffrey, who we've probably scared into never posting again....
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10592
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #21 - 08/22/11 at 11:46:05
Post Tools
Anonymous3 wrote on 08/22/11 at 04:17:52:
First of all EricthheRed, I don't understand why you are so hyped up about this subject.

First I don't understand why you think Eric is hyped up.
Second I don't care what you think the preferences of your opponents might or might not be. It's all pseudopsychological speculation based on vague assumptions.
Last I think you should not ask this question

Jeffrey wrote on 09/09/09 at 06:35:50:
Is there any way in which White can punish Black for using this move order?


and then dislike Eric's answer, which is full of arguments. That's what a forum is about: asking a question and getting answers you don't (want to) accept.
If you are still going to reach the Slav via 1...Nf6 I am pretty sure Eric won't lose a second of his sleep. He just gives his opinion, which happens to be mine too.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Anonymous3
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 305
Joined: 08/15/08
Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #20 - 08/22/11 at 07:16:06
Post Tools
Zwischenzugzwang wrote on 08/22/11 at 06:40:50:
Anonymous3 wrote on 08/22/11 at 05:37:03:
If the 1...Nf6 move-order gets White to go for an early ...e3 but against the 1...d5 move-order he would play Nf3 and Nc3 that is a good thing since you've gotten him into a weaker line!

Maybe yes, maybe no. Some people seem to think that an early e3 is "better" (at least from a practically point of view) than Nc3 and Nf3, I mentioned Avrukh.


I don't care if an early e3 is more practical. It is a weaker line that's easier to play against. If White is playing this line for practical reasons, I think he will play it against the 1...d5 move-order as well. After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c6 I don't think many people that want to play the e3 line (for practical reasons as you said) will play 4.Nc3 rather than 4.e3 just to be able to meet 4...f5?! with 5.Bf4 since that allows the Noteboom with 4...dxc4 and the Semi-Slav with 4...Nf6 which would take White out of his repertoire and wouldn't be practical at all.

Anyway, this line doesn't apply to players that are going to play an early ...Nf6 in the Slav on move 3 since after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6, the Stonewall is no longer an option and White can still play an early e3 or Nc3.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Zwischenzugzwang
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing
& chess pubs!

Posts: 380
Location: Zotzenbach
Joined: 06/14/11
Gender: Male
Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #19 - 08/22/11 at 06:40:50
Post Tools
Anonymous3 wrote on 08/22/11 at 05:37:03:
If the 1...Nf6 move-order gets White to go for an early ...e3 but against the 1...d5 move-order he would play Nf3 and Nc3 that is a good thing since you've gotten him into a weaker line!

Maybe yes, maybe no. Some people seem to think that an early e3 is "better" (at least from a practically point of view) than Nc3 and Nf3, I mentioned Avrukh.
  

What do people mean when they say "Chess is the pawn of the soul"?
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Anonymous3
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 305
Joined: 08/15/08
Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #18 - 08/22/11 at 05:37:03
Post Tools
Zwischenzugzwang wrote on 08/14/11 at 09:31:08:
With 1...Nf6, 2...c6 Black has also given up the possibility of a Delayed Stonewall. Even if (s)he doesn't intend to play this at all, the mere possibility of doing so might cause White to go for Nc3 and Nf3, as an early e3 gives up a possible Bf4. Having played Nc3 and Nf3, White is no longer able to follow Avrukh. Again, Black might has shown his/her cards too early.


If the 1...Nf6 move-order gets White to go for an early ...e3 but against the 1...d5 move-order he would play Nf3 and Nc3 that is a good thing since you've gotten him into a weaker line!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Anonymous3
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 305
Joined: 08/15/08
Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #17 - 08/22/11 at 04:17:52
Post Tools
ErictheRed wrote on 08/11/11 at 01:49:47:
Anonymous3 wrote on 08/10/11 at 23:55:24:
Also, you don't seem to understand the point about limiting your own options.  Even if you were not intending to play the Noteboom or Argentinan or whatever, after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 White doesn't know that.  But by playing 1d4 Nf6 2.c4 c6 he does.  In fact he can now play 3.Nc3 without worrying about you taking his c-pawn.  After 3...d5 White might try 4.cd cd 5.Bf4, which is a variation he might not be able to get normally and that some strong players have tried to prove an advantage with.  Not that it's scary, but again you've merely limited your own options (no Argentinian, no Winawer Counter Gambit, no 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.cd cd 4.Nc3 e5, no 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.cd cd 4.Nc3 Nc6 5.Bf4 e5).  This is just one example of how you've shown your cards earlier than you needed to.  White can choose variations that better suit him personally as a result.  I'm not going to argue the theoretical merits of every single variation because that would go nowhere.


First of all EricthheRed, I don't understand why you are so hyped up about this subject.

If the 1...Nf6 move-order gets White to go for 3.Nc3 d5 4.cxd5 cxd5 5.Bf4, but he would go for a main line against the 1...d5 move-order, that is a good thing since you've gotten him into a weaker line! You have revealed your cards earlier by choosing the 1...Nf6 move-order but White can't take advantage of this and he may go for a weaker line like the exchange line you gave!  I don't care if a line like this suits him better personally. I would prefer to face these lines since they are weaker than the main lines and easier play against.

Also, I think White will be disappointed to know he isn't going to face lines like the Winnawer Counter Gambit, 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.cxd5 cxd5 4.Nc3 e5 or 4...Nc6 5.Bf4 e5 since these lines are generally considered not to be very good for Black.
« Last Edit: 08/22/11 at 05:38:55 by Anonymous3 »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Zwischenzugzwang
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing
& chess pubs!

Posts: 380
Location: Zotzenbach
Joined: 06/14/11
Gender: Male
Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #16 - 08/14/11 at 09:31:08
Post Tools
With 1...Nf6, 2...c6 Black has also given up the possibility of a Delayed Stonewall. Even if (s)he doesn't intend to play this at all, the mere possibility of doing so might cause White to go for Nc3 and Nf3, as an early e3 gives up a possible Bf4. Having played Nc3 and Nf3, White is no longer able to follow Avrukh. Again, Black might has shown his/her cards too early.
  

What do people mean when they say "Chess is the pawn of the soul"?
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Girkassa
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 433
Joined: 04/07/07
Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #15 - 08/14/11 at 07:39:52
Post Tools
Hold on a sec! I think I've found one advantage of the 1...Nf6 move order!

Say you want to meet the Slav Exchange with the ...Ne4 line. Thus, 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.cxd5 cxd5 4.Nc3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Nf6 6.Bf4 Ne4. If White wants to avoid this, however, the move order 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.e3 Nf6 6.Bd3 could be irritating for Black. If White is committed to either Nc3 or Nf3, though, this line is not possible! Thus, Black can play 1...Nf6 2.c4 c6 in order to provoke one of the knight moves before he commits himself to 3...d5.

This sounds like a very minor point, as the ...Ne4 line is one of Black's rarer options, and the setup 4.Bf4, 5.e3, 6.Bd3 is one of White's rarer options, in the Exchange, which is not White's most usual way to face the Slav (thus, this is a sideline of a sideline, which White plays in order to avoid a sideline!). However, I have been in this exact situation once (wanting to play ...Ne4 against the Exchange, which my opponent knew, and therefore chose 4.Bf4, 5.e3, 6.Bd3, a move order issue I had never thought about before), so I can actually relate to this problem.

Besides, since I usually play 1...Nf6, 2...e6, while I only use the Slav occasionally, I am already prepared to face White's other options after 1...Nf6.

So maybe 1...Nf6 and 2...c6 is not entirely pointless after all. I might actually play it on very rare occasions.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2514
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #14 - 08/11/11 at 20:36:54
Post Tools
OrangeCounty wrote on 08/11/11 at 18:27:49:
isn't this move order also missing out on the most likely partners for a Trompowsky player, e.g. 1...d5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Bg5 and 2 Nc3 Nf6 3 Bg5, both of which are probably easier variations even than the Trompowsky?

So while I might prefer the Tromp to being tortured in the Slav main lines, that might not be the real alternative.


I have a headache but I'll do this one more time in honor of Dostoevsky's vivid description of a horse being beaten to death in Crime and Punishment:

1.d4 Nf6 does not avoid the Richter-Veresov after 2.Nc3, unless Black wants to transpose to a Pirc after 2...d6 or French after 2...e6.  But after 1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 Black doesn't have to play 2...Nf6 either, he can transpose to a Caro-Kann or French, and in fact he has a wider choice of variations to choose from with this move order because the King's Knight isn't committed yet (he can still play the Winawer, for instance).

1.d4 Nf6 does not avoid the Torre or whatever it's called after 2.Nf3 d5 3.Bg5.  Unless Black wants to play 2...c6 but White can go 3.Bg5 anyway.  But here you've limited your options again; you've allowed the Tromp and Torre when you could have just gone 1.d4 d5 which avoids the Tromp at least.

Lastly, if you consider the Slav main lines to be torture, why on Earth would you try to play them at all, from any move order?

I'm pretty sure the horse has been buried by now.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OrangeCounty
Full Member
***
Offline


You played that like it
was a good move!

Posts: 171
Joined: 05/26/10
Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #13 - 08/11/11 at 18:27:49
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 08/11/11 at 09:48:23:
ErictheRed wrote on 08/11/11 at 01:49:47:
what's the point of this move order?  You're hoping to face the Trompowsky because you love playing against it so much?

That regular Slav players should prefer not facing their favourite opening, but the Tromp instead.


Hmmm... I'm not sure that the relative theoretical merits are here, because you're going to have to take a minimax of all the potential Slav lines and their soundness.  But this makes sense; the Trompowsky probably does not represent as testing a set of options for White as the Slav.  On the other hand, isn't this move order also missing out on the most likely partners for a Trompowsky player, e.g. 1...d5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Bg5 and 2 Nc3 Nf6 3 Bg5, both of which are probably easier variations even than the Trompowsky?

So while I might prefer the Tromp to being tortured in the Slav main lines, that might not be the real alternative.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10592
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #12 - 08/11/11 at 09:48:23
Post Tools
ErictheRed wrote on 08/11/11 at 01:49:47:
what's the point of this move order?  You're hoping to face the Trompowsky because you love playing against it so much?

That regular Slav players should prefer not facing their favourite opening, but the Tromp instead.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #11 - 08/11/11 at 02:29:46
Post Tools
ErictheRed wrote on 08/11/11 at 01:49:47:
Anonymous3 wrote on 08/10/11 at 23:55:24:
ErictheRed disregarded my suggestion of 3...Qb6 after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c6 3.Bf4?!.



In fairness, I ignore most of your suggestions.


Grin
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2514
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #10 - 08/11/11 at 01:49:47
Post Tools
Anonymous3 wrote on 08/10/11 at 23:55:24:
ErictheRed disregarded my suggestion of 3...Qb6 after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c6 3.Bf4?!.



In fairness, I ignore most of your suggestions.  But you didn't answer my question: what's the point of this move order?  You're hoping to face the Trompowsky because you love playing against it so much?  If that's the case, go for it.

Also, you don't seem to understand the point about limiting your own options.  Even if you were not intending to play the Noteboom or Argentinan or whatever, after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 White doesn't know that.  But by playing 1d4 Nf6 2.c4 c6 he does.  In fact he can now play 3.Nc3 without worrying about you taking his c-pawn.  After 3...d5 White might try 4.cd cd 5.Bf4, which is a variation he might not be able to get normally and that some strong players have tried to prove an advantage with.  Not that it's scary, but again you've merely limited your own options (no Argentinian, no Winawer Counter Gambit, no 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.cd cd 4.Nc3 e5, no 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.cd cd 4.Nc3 Nc6 5.Bf4 e5).  This is just one example of how you've shown your cards earlier than you needed to.  White can choose variations that better suit him personally as a result.  I'm not going to argue the theoretical merits of every single variation because that would go nowhere.

All your move order seems to do is give your opponent more options and limit your own.  From a practical point of view it must be bad; from a theoretical point of view I'm sure it's fine.

I'm still waiting to hear why you would use this move order...let's assume for one moment that 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c6 3.Bf4 Qb6 leads to an advantage for Black, just for the sake of argument.  You're going to limit all of your other options in the hopes that 1 out of every 100 1.d4 players fall for this "trap"?  Is that the idea?  I don't get it.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Seeley
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 352
Location: UK
Joined: 04/03/10
Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #9 - 08/11/11 at 00:40:47
Post Tools
Anonymous3 wrote on 08/10/11 at 23:55:24:
All of you have disregarded my point Some players will meet 1...Nf6 with 2.Bg5 but 1...d5 with 2.c4 and by playing 1...Nf6 you've gotten him into a weaker opening . This is my main reason for preferring 1...Nf6. 


I don't think the replies do ignore this point, actually. As ErictheRed indicates, after, for example, 1.d4 Nf6 2. Bg5, all you've managed to achieve is to avoid the opening you're trying to play – which doesn't seem like a desirable outcome. If I understand your point correctly, what you're claiming is that you've now lured White into a weaker opening. To call the Trompovsky 'weaker', though, is controversial, at least on a practical level. What you're now faced with is the prospect of facing an opponent in a line that he has chosen and in which he is probably a good deal more knowledgeable and experienced than you. This doesn't seem like a sensible thing to be hoping for. I think ErictheRed hits the nail on the head: all you're doing by adopting the move order you suggest is reducing your own options while increasing those of your opponent.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Anonymous3
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 305
Joined: 08/15/08
Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #8 - 08/10/11 at 23:55:24
Post Tools
All of you have disregarded my point Some players will meet 1...Nf6 with 2.Bg5 but 1...d5 with 2.c4 and by playing 1...Nf6 you've gotten him into a weaker opening . This is my main reason for preferring 1...Nf6.

Also, ErictheRed disregarded my suggestion of 3...Qb6 after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c6 3.Bf4?!.

I know your giving up the options of the Triangle, Noteboom, Argentinian Variation, and 3.Nf3 dxc4 by playing 1...Nf6 but I'm suggesting 1...Nf6 for players who aren't going to play these variations. If your not going to play these variations against 1...d5, then your not really giving up any options by playing 1...Nf6.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo