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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6 (Read 28074 times)
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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #37 - 12/22/16 at 21:46:53
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I'm reviving this old thread partly because it was amusing, but mainly because I'm actually interested in the OP's question. (Probably more interested than he was: he doesn't seem to have logged in since before the first reply to his question was posted.) I'll try to explain why.

Against 1.d4 I usually play 1...d5. Against 2.c4 I play both the Slav and the QGD. I don't know much theory and nor do my opponents, so we are usually out of the books by about move 8. If I could pick a main-line defence that I'd like to be in at that stage it would probably be the Semi-Slav, though I don't have any clear idea of how I intend to get there.

But a large proportion of my 1.d4-playing opponents -- probably as many as half -- don't play 2.c4, or even 2.Nf3 and 3.c4. In particular, 2.Bf4 is all the rage.

Now I know 2.Bf4 is not reckoned to be White's most challenging option; I just hate facing it. I have spent a good deal of time searching for a line I like, without much success. But in the course of this exercise I noticed that 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bf4 is less promising because of 2...c5! So I started wondering whether I could start with 1...Nf6, without having to learn one of the Indian defences (which really would be overkill).

I don't mind facing the Tromp. I don't under-estimate it, but at least it's easy to get an interesting position.

1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.Bf4 doesn't bother me quite so much, because 3...c5 followed by ...Nc6 and ...Qb6 seems to be a line that London players find depressing, and the main reason why 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 is now preferred to 2.Nf3 and 3.Bf4. Besides, I could try 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5, which I rather like. I know this can turn into a Benko Declined, but learning it would be a much more manageable proposition than the whole of the Benko.

That's why I'm considering 1...Nf6. After 2.c4 I would probably play 2...c6 rather than 2...e6, because I'd prefer not to play the Nimzo or to defend an Exchange QGD. So is there a snag?

After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4, my database includes about 5700 games with 2...c6. It has been played occasionally by lots of top GMs. Movsesian plays it quite a lot. I don't suppose he is as concerned about the London system as I am, but presumably he has reasons of his own; and presumably he doesn't think this move order has any major drawbacks. If 3.Bf4 is a drawback, as tracke suggested, it's a little-known one: it was played in little more than 100 of those 5700 games. White nearly always plays 3.Nc3 or 3.Nf3, and the game turns into an ordinary Slav.

So, although this move order may have no theoretical advantages, I think that for me it could be a useful practical weapon.
  
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gewgaw
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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #36 - 04/30/12 at 17:46:56
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ErictheRed wrote on 04/30/12 at 15:30:36:
Reading through this thread again gave me a bunch of warm fuzzies Smiley.  I love this place  Roll Eyes

Gewgaw, 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d5 (or 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nf6) is usually called the Marshall Defense and not considered a good move order for Black.


Yes, okay, it was just a brief thought....Smiley
  

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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #35 - 04/30/12 at 15:30:36
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Reading through this thread again gave me a bunch of warm fuzzies Smiley.  I love this place  Roll Eyes

Gewgaw, 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d5 (or 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nf6) is usually called the Marshall Defense and not considered a good move order for Black.
  
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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #34 - 04/30/12 at 15:26:28
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gewgaw wrote on 04/30/12 at 15:09:13:
I´m not sure, if this thread is spoilt already, but when reading the pros and cons about different move orders, suddenly 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d5 3.cd5 g6 came to my mind. Isn´t this a good move order for Black to play the Grunfeld, where White already lost some important options?


If I were you I'd be concerned about Qa4+.
  
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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #33 - 04/30/12 at 15:09:13
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I´m not sure, if this thread is spoilt already, but when reading the pros and cons about different move orders, suddenly 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d5 3.cd5 g6 came to my mind. Isn´t this a good move order for Black to play the Grunfeld, where White already lost some important options?
  

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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #32 - 04/30/12 at 10:00:06
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Thanks for confirming that you're a troll.
  

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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #31 - 04/30/12 at 01:08:54
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MNb wrote on 08/22/11 at 11:46:05:
Anonymous3 wrote on 08/22/11 at 04:17:52:
First of all EricthheRed, I don't understand why you are so hyped up about this subject.

First I don't understand why you think Eric is hyped up.
Second I don't care what you think the preferences of your opponents might or might not be. It's all pseudopsychological speculation based on vague assumptions.
Last I think you should not ask this question

Jeffrey wrote on 09/09/09 at 06:35:50:
Is there any way in which White can punish Black for using this move order?


and then dislike Eric's answer, which is full of arguments. That's what a forum is about: asking a question and getting answers you don't (want to) accept.
If you are still going to reach the Slav via 1...Nf6 I am pretty sure Eric won't lose a second of his sleep. He just gives his opinion, which happens to be mine too.


MNb, I don't understand how you don't understand why I think Eric is hyped up.

Also, I just wanted to get this post back to the top.
  
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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #30 - 08/31/11 at 18:12:17
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If you play the Slav against 1 c4, as a Slav player against 1. d4 generally does, the 1...Nf6 move order has the advantage of missing the e2-e4 lines, as was mentioned, and also allows Black to play other things, of which ...e5 and ...Bb4 is the best example.  1 ...c6 is more committal.
  
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MNb
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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #29 - 08/26/11 at 20:33:26
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/26/11 at 18:38:24:
Andreikin-Aronian ( World Blitz, 2010) went 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 c6 3.e4 d5 (3...e5 invites King's Indian and Old Indian positions, as I mentioned earlier) 4.e5 Ne4 (4...d4 5.ef6 dc3 6. bc3 and I definitely prefer White in a practical game.)

Yes, but Volcanor wants Black to play 2...e5 3.Nf3 Nc6 and evt. 4...Bb4 here. Only after 2.g3 he recommends 2...c6 again. I'd say that it's an interesting suggestion. I'd like to know the opinion of Slav adherents.
  

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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #28 - 08/26/11 at 18:38:24
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Andreikin-Aronian ( World Blitz, 2010) went 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 c6 3.e4 d5 (3...e5 invites King's Indian and Old Indian positions, as I mentioned earlier) 4.e5 Ne4 (4...d4 5.ef6 dc3 6. bc3 and I definitely prefer White in a practical game.)

Of course, the discussion of this type of position is quite some distance from the OP's question and Anonymous' assertions. But then, it's also more interesting.
  
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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #27 - 08/26/11 at 14:13:36
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MNb wrote on 08/25/11 at 13:35:09:
This is an interesting argument, though I would not recommend 3.Nf3 Bb4 4.Nxe5 to Black.
What about 1.c4 Nf6 2.g3 ?

You're right. After 3.Nf3 Nc6 seems better than Bb4. But I'm sure you got my point. To answer your question, I'd recommand 1.c4 Nf6 2. g3 c6, soon followed by d5.

I think that if Black is happy by his positions after both 1.c4 Nf6 2.d4 c6 and 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e5, it's an interesting move order against the English.

But as previously mentioned, nothing comes for free. I personnally don't like it, because of 1.c4 Nf6 2.d4 c6 3.Nc3 d5 4.e3. As I like to play the dxc4 Slav, I'm outside my repertoire. But if you're happy with 4...e6 (Meran) or 4...a6, I think it's fine for Black.
  
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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #26 - 08/25/11 at 13:35:09
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Volcanor wrote on 08/25/11 at 07:45:06:
IBlack can play 2...e5 and argue that White has been commited to Nc3 and that 3...Bb4 will follow.

This is an interesting argument, though I would not recommend 3.Nf3 Bb4 4.Nxe5 to Black.
What about 1.c4 Nf6 2.g3 ?
  

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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #25 - 08/25/11 at 07:45:06
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If we speak about the position after 2 moves (i.e. 1.d4 Nf6 2. c4 c6), it's interesting to note that this position can be reached through 1.c4 Nf6 2.d4 c6. And this move order makes sense both theoretically and pratically if Black wants to play the Slav against the English.

Black avoids the Steiner/Panov from the Caro-Kann that he has to face after 1.c4 c6 2.e4. Of course, Black has to deal with 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3, with the idea 2...c6 3.e4 and we're back in a Steiner/Panov. But Black can play 2...e5 and argue that White has been commited to Nc3 and that 3...Bb4 will follow.
  
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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #24 - 08/24/11 at 21:29:56
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You can also get into the Slav via. 1...c6. However there aren't really any advantages to this move order, and you also limit your options against the queen's pawn openings (without an early c4)

1...c6 does give Black the extra option of 2.c4 b5 as analysed by Rogers in SOS, but this is just garbage.
  

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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #23 - 08/24/11 at 21:16:04
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I'd be intersted to hear what GM Tony Kosten's thoughts are on reaching the Slav via 1...Nf6.
  
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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #22 - 08/22/11 at 17:33:50
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I just feel bad for Jeffrey, who we've probably scared into never posting again....
  
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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #21 - 08/22/11 at 11:46:05
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Anonymous3 wrote on 08/22/11 at 04:17:52:
First of all EricthheRed, I don't understand why you are so hyped up about this subject.

First I don't understand why you think Eric is hyped up.
Second I don't care what you think the preferences of your opponents might or might not be. It's all pseudopsychological speculation based on vague assumptions.
Last I think you should not ask this question

Jeffrey wrote on 09/09/09 at 06:35:50:
Is there any way in which White can punish Black for using this move order?


and then dislike Eric's answer, which is full of arguments. That's what a forum is about: asking a question and getting answers you don't (want to) accept.
If you are still going to reach the Slav via 1...Nf6 I am pretty sure Eric won't lose a second of his sleep. He just gives his opinion, which happens to be mine too.
  

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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #20 - 08/22/11 at 07:16:06
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Zwischenzugzwang wrote on 08/22/11 at 06:40:50:
Anonymous3 wrote on 08/22/11 at 05:37:03:
If the 1...Nf6 move-order gets White to go for an early ...e3 but against the 1...d5 move-order he would play Nf3 and Nc3 that is a good thing since you've gotten him into a weaker line!

Maybe yes, maybe no. Some people seem to think that an early e3 is "better" (at least from a practically point of view) than Nc3 and Nf3, I mentioned Avrukh.


I don't care if an early e3 is more practical. It is a weaker line that's easier to play against. If White is playing this line for practical reasons, I think he will play it against the 1...d5 move-order as well. After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c6 I don't think many people that want to play the e3 line (for practical reasons as you said) will play 4.Nc3 rather than 4.e3 just to be able to meet 4...f5?! with 5.Bf4 since that allows the Noteboom with 4...dxc4 and the Semi-Slav with 4...Nf6 which would take White out of his repertoire and wouldn't be practical at all.

Anyway, this line doesn't apply to players that are going to play an early ...Nf6 in the Slav on move 3 since after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6, the Stonewall is no longer an option and White can still play an early e3 or Nc3.
  
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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #19 - 08/22/11 at 06:40:50
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Anonymous3 wrote on 08/22/11 at 05:37:03:
If the 1...Nf6 move-order gets White to go for an early ...e3 but against the 1...d5 move-order he would play Nf3 and Nc3 that is a good thing since you've gotten him into a weaker line!

Maybe yes, maybe no. Some people seem to think that an early e3 is "better" (at least from a practically point of view) than Nc3 and Nf3, I mentioned Avrukh.
  

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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #18 - 08/22/11 at 05:37:03
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Zwischenzugzwang wrote on 08/14/11 at 09:31:08:
With 1...Nf6, 2...c6 Black has also given up the possibility of a Delayed Stonewall. Even if (s)he doesn't intend to play this at all, the mere possibility of doing so might cause White to go for Nc3 and Nf3, as an early e3 gives up a possible Bf4. Having played Nc3 and Nf3, White is no longer able to follow Avrukh. Again, Black might has shown his/her cards too early.


If the 1...Nf6 move-order gets White to go for an early ...e3 but against the 1...d5 move-order he would play Nf3 and Nc3 that is a good thing since you've gotten him into a weaker line!
  
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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #17 - 08/22/11 at 04:17:52
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ErictheRed wrote on 08/11/11 at 01:49:47:
Anonymous3 wrote on 08/10/11 at 23:55:24:
Also, you don't seem to understand the point about limiting your own options.  Even if you were not intending to play the Noteboom or Argentinan or whatever, after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 White doesn't know that.  But by playing 1d4 Nf6 2.c4 c6 he does.  In fact he can now play 3.Nc3 without worrying about you taking his c-pawn.  After 3...d5 White might try 4.cd cd 5.Bf4, which is a variation he might not be able to get normally and that some strong players have tried to prove an advantage with.  Not that it's scary, but again you've merely limited your own options (no Argentinian, no Winawer Counter Gambit, no 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.cd cd 4.Nc3 e5, no 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.cd cd 4.Nc3 Nc6 5.Bf4 e5).  This is just one example of how you've shown your cards earlier than you needed to.  White can choose variations that better suit him personally as a result.  I'm not going to argue the theoretical merits of every single variation because that would go nowhere.


First of all EricthheRed, I don't understand why you are so hyped up about this subject.

If the 1...Nf6 move-order gets White to go for 3.Nc3 d5 4.cxd5 cxd5 5.Bf4, but he would go for a main line against the 1...d5 move-order, that is a good thing since you've gotten him into a weaker line! You have revealed your cards earlier by choosing the 1...Nf6 move-order but White can't take advantage of this and he may go for a weaker line like the exchange line you gave!  I don't care if a line like this suits him better personally. I would prefer to face these lines since they are weaker than the main lines and easier play against.

Also, I think White will be disappointed to know he isn't going to face lines like the Winnawer Counter Gambit, 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.cxd5 cxd5 4.Nc3 e5 or 4...Nc6 5.Bf4 e5 since these lines are generally considered not to be very good for Black.
« Last Edit: 08/22/11 at 05:38:55 by Anonymous3 »  
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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #16 - 08/14/11 at 09:31:08
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With 1...Nf6, 2...c6 Black has also given up the possibility of a Delayed Stonewall. Even if (s)he doesn't intend to play this at all, the mere possibility of doing so might cause White to go for Nc3 and Nf3, as an early e3 gives up a possible Bf4. Having played Nc3 and Nf3, White is no longer able to follow Avrukh. Again, Black might has shown his/her cards too early.
  

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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #15 - 08/14/11 at 07:39:52
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Hold on a sec! I think I've found one advantage of the 1...Nf6 move order!

Say you want to meet the Slav Exchange with the ...Ne4 line. Thus, 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.cxd5 cxd5 4.Nc3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Nf6 6.Bf4 Ne4. If White wants to avoid this, however, the move order 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.e3 Nf6 6.Bd3 could be irritating for Black. If White is committed to either Nc3 or Nf3, though, this line is not possible! Thus, Black can play 1...Nf6 2.c4 c6 in order to provoke one of the knight moves before he commits himself to 3...d5.

This sounds like a very minor point, as the ...Ne4 line is one of Black's rarer options, and the setup 4.Bf4, 5.e3, 6.Bd3 is one of White's rarer options, in the Exchange, which is not White's most usual way to face the Slav (thus, this is a sideline of a sideline, which White plays in order to avoid a sideline!). However, I have been in this exact situation once (wanting to play ...Ne4 against the Exchange, which my opponent knew, and therefore chose 4.Bf4, 5.e3, 6.Bd3, a move order issue I had never thought about before), so I can actually relate to this problem.

Besides, since I usually play 1...Nf6, 2...e6, while I only use the Slav occasionally, I am already prepared to face White's other options after 1...Nf6.

So maybe 1...Nf6 and 2...c6 is not entirely pointless after all. I might actually play it on very rare occasions.
  
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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #14 - 08/11/11 at 20:36:54
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OrangeCounty wrote on 08/11/11 at 18:27:49:
isn't this move order also missing out on the most likely partners for a Trompowsky player, e.g. 1...d5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Bg5 and 2 Nc3 Nf6 3 Bg5, both of which are probably easier variations even than the Trompowsky?

So while I might prefer the Tromp to being tortured in the Slav main lines, that might not be the real alternative.


I have a headache but I'll do this one more time in honor of Dostoevsky's vivid description of a horse being beaten to death in Crime and Punishment:

1.d4 Nf6 does not avoid the Richter-Veresov after 2.Nc3, unless Black wants to transpose to a Pirc after 2...d6 or French after 2...e6.  But after 1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 Black doesn't have to play 2...Nf6 either, he can transpose to a Caro-Kann or French, and in fact he has a wider choice of variations to choose from with this move order because the King's Knight isn't committed yet (he can still play the Winawer, for instance).

1.d4 Nf6 does not avoid the Torre or whatever it's called after 2.Nf3 d5 3.Bg5.  Unless Black wants to play 2...c6 but White can go 3.Bg5 anyway.  But here you've limited your options again; you've allowed the Tromp and Torre when you could have just gone 1.d4 d5 which avoids the Tromp at least.

Lastly, if you consider the Slav main lines to be torture, why on Earth would you try to play them at all, from any move order?

I'm pretty sure the horse has been buried by now.
  
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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #13 - 08/11/11 at 18:27:49
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MNb wrote on 08/11/11 at 09:48:23:
ErictheRed wrote on 08/11/11 at 01:49:47:
what's the point of this move order?  You're hoping to face the Trompowsky because you love playing against it so much?

That regular Slav players should prefer not facing their favourite opening, but the Tromp instead.


Hmmm... I'm not sure that the relative theoretical merits are here, because you're going to have to take a minimax of all the potential Slav lines and their soundness.  But this makes sense; the Trompowsky probably does not represent as testing a set of options for White as the Slav.  On the other hand, isn't this move order also missing out on the most likely partners for a Trompowsky player, e.g. 1...d5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Bg5 and 2 Nc3 Nf6 3 Bg5, both of which are probably easier variations even than the Trompowsky?

So while I might prefer the Tromp to being tortured in the Slav main lines, that might not be the real alternative.
  
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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #12 - 08/11/11 at 09:48:23
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ErictheRed wrote on 08/11/11 at 01:49:47:
what's the point of this move order?  You're hoping to face the Trompowsky because you love playing against it so much?

That regular Slav players should prefer not facing their favourite opening, but the Tromp instead.
  

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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #11 - 08/11/11 at 02:29:46
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ErictheRed wrote on 08/11/11 at 01:49:47:
Anonymous3 wrote on 08/10/11 at 23:55:24:
ErictheRed disregarded my suggestion of 3...Qb6 after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c6 3.Bf4?!.



In fairness, I ignore most of your suggestions.


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ErictheRed
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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #10 - 08/11/11 at 01:49:47
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Anonymous3 wrote on 08/10/11 at 23:55:24:
ErictheRed disregarded my suggestion of 3...Qb6 after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c6 3.Bf4?!.



In fairness, I ignore most of your suggestions.  But you didn't answer my question: what's the point of this move order?  You're hoping to face the Trompowsky because you love playing against it so much?  If that's the case, go for it.

Also, you don't seem to understand the point about limiting your own options.  Even if you were not intending to play the Noteboom or Argentinan or whatever, after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 White doesn't know that.  But by playing 1d4 Nf6 2.c4 c6 he does.  In fact he can now play 3.Nc3 without worrying about you taking his c-pawn.  After 3...d5 White might try 4.cd cd 5.Bf4, which is a variation he might not be able to get normally and that some strong players have tried to prove an advantage with.  Not that it's scary, but again you've merely limited your own options (no Argentinian, no Winawer Counter Gambit, no 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.cd cd 4.Nc3 e5, no 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.cd cd 4.Nc3 Nc6 5.Bf4 e5).  This is just one example of how you've shown your cards earlier than you needed to.  White can choose variations that better suit him personally as a result.  I'm not going to argue the theoretical merits of every single variation because that would go nowhere.

All your move order seems to do is give your opponent more options and limit your own.  From a practical point of view it must be bad; from a theoretical point of view I'm sure it's fine.

I'm still waiting to hear why you would use this move order...let's assume for one moment that 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c6 3.Bf4 Qb6 leads to an advantage for Black, just for the sake of argument.  You're going to limit all of your other options in the hopes that 1 out of every 100 1.d4 players fall for this "trap"?  Is that the idea?  I don't get it.
  
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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #9 - 08/11/11 at 00:40:47
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Anonymous3 wrote on 08/10/11 at 23:55:24:
All of you have disregarded my point Some players will meet 1...Nf6 with 2.Bg5 but 1...d5 with 2.c4 and by playing 1...Nf6 you've gotten him into a weaker opening . This is my main reason for preferring 1...Nf6. 


I don't think the replies do ignore this point, actually. As ErictheRed indicates, after, for example, 1.d4 Nf6 2. Bg5, all you've managed to achieve is to avoid the opening you're trying to play – which doesn't seem like a desirable outcome. If I understand your point correctly, what you're claiming is that you've now lured White into a weaker opening. To call the Trompovsky 'weaker', though, is controversial, at least on a practical level. What you're now faced with is the prospect of facing an opponent in a line that he has chosen and in which he is probably a good deal more knowledgeable and experienced than you. This doesn't seem like a sensible thing to be hoping for. I think ErictheRed hits the nail on the head: all you're doing by adopting the move order you suggest is reducing your own options while increasing those of your opponent.

  
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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #8 - 08/10/11 at 23:55:24
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All of you have disregarded my point Some players will meet 1...Nf6 with 2.Bg5 but 1...d5 with 2.c4 and by playing 1...Nf6 you've gotten him into a weaker opening . This is my main reason for preferring 1...Nf6.

Also, ErictheRed disregarded my suggestion of 3...Qb6 after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c6 3.Bf4?!.

I know your giving up the options of the Triangle, Noteboom, Argentinian Variation, and 3.Nf3 dxc4 by playing 1...Nf6 but I'm suggesting 1...Nf6 for players who aren't going to play these variations. If your not going to play these variations against 1...d5, then your not really giving up any options by playing 1...Nf6.
  
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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #7 - 08/10/11 at 22:40:52
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I agree that Black seems to give up more options than he gains with this move order, but I can see a psychological advantage to playing 1...Nf6 and 2...c6 if White doesn't know you're a Slav player.

I'm not as negative about Black's slightly idiosyncratic move order as Eric is, but I agree with his sentiment that it doesn't make much objective sense. Unless....

The only possibility that you gain as Black is that you may want to try some sort of Indian defense without d5. If you have such a line in your arsenal, this move order makes sense.
  
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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #6 - 08/10/11 at 21:39:08
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This has been discussed before, though I can't seem to find the link with a quick search.  I'll say the same thing I said in that thread: I don't understand the point.  What is Black trying to avoid with this move order?  What is he trying to gain?

By playing 1.d4 Nf6 White has the option of 2.Bg5.  He can also play 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c6 3.Bf4 when 3...d5 4.e3 looks quite boring and uninspiring to me (for Black).  What have you gained?  If you play 3...d6 you've avoided the Slav, the opening you were trying to play.  Congratulations.

After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 d5 White can still play everything he could have played if you had started with 1...d5.  The Exchange, the Dutch, the Slow Slav, etc.  Same thing after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 d5, White can play 4.e3, 4.cxd5, 4.Nf3, 4.Bg5, etc...you've gained absolutely nothing by this move order.  In fact, you've lost quite a few options as TN pointed out.  Yippee.

Soo...I suppose the only thing you've "gained" is that you've avoided 1.d4 d5 2.Bg5 and 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4.  Of course, that depends on what you plan on playing after 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bf4 and 2.Nf3 intending 3.Bf4 or 3.Bg5.  If you're going to play ...d5 anyway, you've gained nothing.  I guess you've avoided 1.d4 d5 2.e4, but not 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e4 or 3.Bg5; congratulations again. 

Sorry if I sound rude but I'd honestly like to know what the point of this move order is, it seems to merely limit Black's options while allowing White extra ones.  In other words, it's not good.
  
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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #5 - 08/10/11 at 21:26:39
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Anonymous3 wrote on 08/10/11 at 20:06:32:
Wouldn't getting into the Slav (or Semi-Slav) via 1...Nf6 actually be a better move-order (if you not going to play something like 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 dxc4) since some players will meet 1...Nf6 with 2.Bg5 but 1...d5 with 2.c4 and by playing 1...Nf6 you've gotten him into a weaker opening?

Also, After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c6, some players will think that this move-order must be wrong and  try to punish Black with something like 3.Bf4?! (like tracke suggested), 3.Bg5?!, or 3.d5?! which are all dubious.

I think 3.Bf4?! can be met by 3...d6 but I think 3...Qb6 is best. If White tries the gambit 4.Nc3!? Qxb2 5.Bd2, 5...Qb6 is one move that is at least ok for Black.

Against 3.g3, I think 3...d5, transposing to a fairly harmless Slav, is best. 3...d6 may be playable but what does theory say about a fianchetto approach against the Old Indian?

I think Black has several interesting ways to meet 3.Bg5?! and after 3...Ne4 4.Bf4, Black has 4...e5!. (5.Bxe5?? Bb4+; 5.dxe5 Qb6)



It's not a better move order, just different. Also by playing a ...Nf6 move order to reach the Slav, you give up the options of the Triangle, Noteboom, Argentinian Variation and 3.Nf3 dc4.
  

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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #4 - 08/10/11 at 20:06:32
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Wouldn't getting into the Slav (or Semi-Slav) via 1...Nf6 actually be a better move-order (if you not going to play something like 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 dxc4) since some players will meet 1...Nf6 with 2.Bg5 but 1...d5 with 2.c4 and by playing 1...Nf6 you've gotten him into a weaker opening?

Also, After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c6, some players will think that this move-order must be wrong and  try to punish Black with something like 3.Bf4?! (like tracke suggested), 3.Bg5?!, or 3.d5?! which are all dubious.

I think 3.Bf4?! can be met by 3...d6 but I think 3...Qb6 is best. If White tries the gambit 4.Nc3!? Qxb2 5.Bd2, 5...Qb6 is one move that is at least ok for Black.

Against 3.g3, I think 3...d5, transposing to a fairly harmless Slav, is best. 3...d6 may be playable but what does theory say about a fianchetto approach against the Old Indian?

I think Black has several interesting ways to meet 3.Bg5?! and after 3...Ne4 4.Bf4, Black has 4...e5!. (5.Bxe5?? Bb4+; 5.dxe5 Qb6)

  
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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #3 - 09/10/09 at 08:09:06
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I think the main question is: Why should Black do it? The move order with 1...Nf6, 2...e6, 3...d5 makes sense since most players who use this move order are planning to play the Nimzo against 3.Nc3 and the QGD against 3.Nf3, having avoided the QGD exchange. I don't see what you gain by playing 1...Nf6, 2...c6 (except from the surprise factor), while, as TN said, White gets the opportunity to play 3.Nc3 without fearing 3...dxc4 (or 3...e5).

I'd also like to add that 2.Bg5 is considered better against 1...Nf6 than against 1...d5 (after 1.d4 d5 2.Bg5, you have other possibilities than 2...Nf6), so White has an extra opportunity there as well.
  
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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #2 - 09/09/09 at 10:46:34
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I don't see why you should have any problems with playing the Slav via. a 1...Nf6 move order.

The first important point is that if White plays 2.Nf3, 2.Bg5 or something similar, you can just play 2...d5 to transpose back to 1...d5 variations.

The second point is that after 2.c4 c6, if White plays 3.Bf4 or 3.g3, you can consider 3...d6!? followed by 4...Nbd7/5...e5 when Black is doing okay in this Old Indian setup. Against the unusual 3.Bg5, 3...Ne4 4.Bf4 d5 with a Trompowsky/London-like game should be equal, and 4...Qb6 is not bad either.

The third point is that if you normally play 3.Nc3 dc4 variation via the normal Slav move-order, White avoids this via the 1...Nf6 move order, and therefore you need something prepared for the 'Anti-Meran' move order 3.Nc3 d5 4.e3.

Other than that, there aren't any differences to playing 1...Nf6/2...c6/3...d5 compared to 1...d5/2...c6/3...Nf6.
  

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Re: Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
Reply #1 - 09/09/09 at 08:12:49
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The only try for white to take use of black´s move order seems to be 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c6 3.Bf4 d5 4.e3 (+= ?!) Then black is solid but a little bit passive as white has managed to play his dark-coloured bishop out of the pawn chain without giving black oppurtunity to take the undefended pawn c4 (black´s main theme of counterplay in the slav!) Kramnik has played this as white. Of course black isn´t forced to play 3...d5, he can play 3...g6 or 3...d6. But in these KID versus London setups Bf4 is probably more useful than c6.

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Getting into Slav via 1. ... Nf6
09/09/09 at 06:35:50
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Apologies in advance if this is in the wrong forum; this forum seemed like a better fit than d-pawn specials.

One often sees players getting into the QGD via 1. ... Nf6, 2. ... e6, and 3. ... d5.  This can be useful because it keeps White guessing whether Black will try to play a Nimzo, Bogo, Benoni, etc.

But one never sees players getting into the Slav via 1. d4 Nf6. 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 d5.  In part, this has to do with the fact that the move order may be pointless, as about the only follow up after 2. .. c6 is 3. .. d5.

But my question is:  Is there any way in which White can punish Black for using this move order?
  
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