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Normal Topic Universal system against 4.Be3 followed by f3orh3 (Read 5461 times)
SWJediknight
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Re: Universal system against 4.Be3 followed by f3orh3
Reply #9 - 09/14/09 at 14:04:21
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The choice between Qc1 and the gambitting suggestion after 5.f3 Qb6 isn't really my problem as I usually follow 4.Be3 with 5.Qd2 and, if feasible, 6.Bh6 anyway.   I'm pretty sure I've had MNb's position after 5...c6 6.Bh6 in a couple of casual games.  As well as keeping options open regarding occupation of the f3-square, in certain lines transposition to an Austrian Attack-style setup with f2-f4 can even work.

My opponents tend to call it a "150 Attack" even when f2-f3 is played but I think they are using it a bit loosely in that case.
  
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MNb
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Re: Universal system against 4.Be3 followed by f3orh3
Reply #8 - 09/14/09 at 03:46:00
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MNb wrote on 09/13/09 at 04:51:07:
Once again I must stress that just the move 4.Be3 does not define the 150-Attack.
Quote:
My understanding is that it's only a 150 attack when White plays Be3 with Nf3, and that's the only time I used that name.


My remark was not meant for you, as you probably already had understood, but an answer to Chwileulotne85's last post. The matter is important exactly because 4.Be3 is so flexible and can lead to all kinds of setups.
I tend to use the same classification as you. There is still an unclear question. How do you call 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 ? White can postpone both f2-f3 and Ng1-f3 for quite a while. This is exactly how I prefer to meet 5...c6.
  

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Stigma
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Re: Universal system against 4.Be3 followed by f3orh3
Reply #7 - 09/13/09 at 12:58:54
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MNb wrote on 09/13/09 at 04:51:07:
I slightly disagre with Stigma. 4.Be3 c6 5.f3 and 4.Be3 c6 5.Qd2 don't transpose that often at all, as fans of the 150-Attack prefer b5 6.Bd3 instead. White still can play something more classical with 7.Nf3 (intending a2-a4 at the right moment) or 7.f4 with Austrian-like play. So it really does make sense to distinguish lines with f2-f3, which I call the Argentinean Attack. The strength of the move order 4.Be3 and 5.Qd2 of course is to keep all three options open for a while.


I don't think we disagree at all. Of course the line with 6.Bd3/7.Nf3 is something else, and I did mention that as a further point in favour of 5.Qd2 (flexibility!). I'm only saying if White intends f3 and Qd2 in some order, he can start with 5.Qd2 and not have to worry about ...Qb6 ideas (5.Qd2 Qb6? 6.0-0-0). So 5.f3 Qb6 is not really something to rely on as a main Black weapon, since it depends on White playing a particular (maybe inaccurate) move order to allow it.

MNb wrote on 09/13/09 at 04:51:07:
Once again I must stress that just the move 4.Be3 does not define the 150-Attack.

My understanding is that it's only a 150 attack when White plays Be3 with Nf3, and that's the only time I used that name.
  

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MNb
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Re: Universal system against 4.Be3 followed by f3orh3
Reply #6 - 09/13/09 at 04:51:07
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1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f3 c6 5.Be3 Qb6 is not the reason I prefer to delay the move f2-f3 as White, even though I distrust JediKnight's gambiting recommendation. Compared to the Najdorf Poisoned Pawn Black can keep the position closed. I would prefer the simple 6.Qc1. In my opinion Qb6 is quite misplaced and will have to move. Until then White just can play system moves like g4, h4, Nge2-g3. Compare 4.f3 Bg7 5.Be3 c6 6.Qd2 b5 (not possible with the queen on b6) and here 7.g4, 7.h4 and 7.Nge2 are normal moves.
Note the transposition 4.Be3 c6 5.Qd2 b5 6.f3, this is the same as 4.f3 c6 5.Be3 b5 6.Qd2. If Black plays the former, as Chwileulotne85 indicated yesterday, 4.f3 c6 5.Be3 Qb6 does not make much sense.
The reason I rather postpone f2-f3 is the line 4.f3 Bg7 5.Be3 0-0 6.Qd2 e5! (c5 is not bad either), see Vigus' article in Dangerous Weapons.

I slightly disagre with Stigma. 4.Be3 c6 5.f3 and 4.Be3 c6 5.Qd2 don't transpose that often at all, as fans of the 150-Attack prefer b5 6.Bd3 instead. White still can play something more classical with 7.Nf3 (intending a2-a4 at the right moment) or 7.f4 with Austrian-like play. So it really does make sense to distinguish lines with f2-f3, which I call the Argentinean Attack. The strength of the move order 4.Be3 and 5.Qd2 of course is to keep all three options open for a while.

It seems that I have to take a closer look at 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Qb6, but at the moment I don't really have the time for it. Anyhow, because of 4.Be3 c6 5.Qd2 Black's idea ...Qb6 cannot be called universal.

As for 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 a6, I think this inaccurate after 5.h3 and 6.f4. Compared to 1.e4 d6 2.d4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.Be3 a6 White's threat e4-e5 becomes much stronger. Also 5.h4 and 5.Qd2 look pretty good to me.

Once again I must stress that just the move 4.Be3 does not define the 150-Attack. Also after 4...a6 the choice what attacking system White will play is decided later. Exactly that makes 4.Be3 such an attractive move.

  

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Stigma
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Re: Universal system against 4.Be3 followed by f3orh3
Reply #5 - 09/13/09 at 01:03:17
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Chwileulotne85 wrote on 09/12/09 at 17:50:30:
Firstly, I was talking only about a systems with f3 and h3 connected with Be3, not about Be3 and Qd2 system. When White would play 5. Qd2 Black shouldn't of course play Qb6. The right plan is to play b5, Nbd7, Nb6 etc.

I think SWJediknight's and my point is that 4.Be3 c6 5.f3 and 4.Be3 c6 5.Qd2 are not really two different systems, often they just transpose. And if that's the case, White shoud simply play 5.Qd2 and not have to worry about these ...Qb6 ideas. 5.Qd2 also keeps the option of playing with Nf3 open a bit longer, another reason to prefer it even if White intends to follow up with f3.

You may be right that Black is OK in the 5.h3 line i feared back in 2007. A copule of sample lines:

1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Be3 c6 5. h3 Qb6 6. a3 Nbd7 7. Nf3 Bg7 8. Bc4 Nxe4 9. Bxf7+ (9. Nxe4 d5 10. Bb3 (10. Bd3 dxe4 11. Bxe4 Qxb2) 10... dxe4 11. Ng5 O-O =) 9... Kxf7 10. Nxe4 Re8! 11. Neg5+ Kg8 12. Ne6 {This invasion is what worried me} 12...Bf6! 13. O-O Nf8 14. d5 c5 15. Nxf8 Rxf8 unclear. Black's bishop pair should compensate for his slightly weakened king.

8.Bc4 Qc7 might also be playable; after 9.Ba2 b5 White has an active diagonal for his bishop, but Black has gotten ...b5 in very easily. 10. O-O (10. d5!?) 10...O-O 11.Bf4! threatening e4-e5 (or 11.Nd2 intending 12.f4, or 11. d5!? Bb7 12. dxc6 Bxc6 13. Nd4 a6 14. Nxc6 Qxc6 15. f3 and now White has the bishop pair, but some holes around his king and Black can break with ...d5, or transfer a knight to c4. 11...e5 12.dxe5 dxe5 13.Be3 +=/=

P.S. 4.Be3 c6 5.Nf3!? is an underestimated move order, trying to force Black into a 150 attack with ...c6 that he may not have planned. Then 5...b5 ?! 6.e5 is just good for White and 5...Nbd7 6.h3 has scored well for him. Probably best is to give up the "tempo game" and play into the 150 attack with 5...Bg7 6.Qd2 and now 6...Qa5 or 6...Bg4.
  

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Chwileulotne85
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Re: Universal system against 4.Be3 followed by f3orh3
Reply #4 - 09/12/09 at 20:03:10
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Hmm I don't want to start a new topic so I ask You what you think about the plan 4...a6 followed by b5 Nbd7 etc against 150 Attack?? Is it good for Black or the plan with 4...c6 is still the most accurate?
  
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Chwileulotne85
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Re: Universal system against 4.Be3 followed by f3orh3
Reply #3 - 09/12/09 at 17:50:30
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SWJediknight wrote on 09/12/09 at 14:37:02:
1.  What does Black do after 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.Qd2?  In that line, 5...Qb6 is well met by 6.0-0-0 side-stepping Black's masterplan.

Firstly, I was talking only about a systems with f3 and h3 connected with Be3, not about Be3 and Qd2 system. When White would play 5. Qd2 Black shouldn't of course play Qb6. The right plan is to play b5, Nbd7, Nb6 etc.

SWJediknight wrote on 09/12/09 at 14:37:02:
2.  After 5.f3 Qb6 White can consider 6.Bd3 (intending to meet 6...Qxb2 with 7.Nge2) or 6.Qd2, offering the b-pawn for compensation in Najdorf Poisoned Pawn style.  I imagine that particularly at the fast time controls that are common on the internet, White should have dangerous compensation.  And if 6.Qd2, and Black doesn't take the pawn, then 7.0-0-0.

hmm after 6.Bd3 Qxb2 7.Nge2 Nbd7 8.0-0 Bg7 Black is completely equal. White has nothing in my view... We can't even compare this position with Najdorf poisoned pawn when White has a lot of perspectives. in this Pirc line i can,t see anything dangerous for Black

Stigma wrote on 09/12/09 at 15:07:24:
After 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Qb6 6.a3 (!) I really want to play 6...Nbd7 to meet  7.f4?! with e5! which Erenburg likes for Black (thanks again to JEH!)

Looking at it now, I think Black should investigate 8.Bc4 Nxe4!?, though White may well be better after that. If White resorts to 8.Bd3 Qc7 or 8.Be2 Qc7, Black has gotten just the complex Pirc position he wants, similar to the Classical with 6.Be2 c6.


I like Black position in your analysis.
  
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Stigma
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Re: Universal system against 4.Be3 followed by f3orh3
Reply #2 - 09/12/09 at 15:07:24
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The Jedi Knight speaks the truth: Though Qb6 is interesting, Black needs something else against the move order 4.Be3 c6 5.Qd2. Actually I don't see what White gains from a 5.f3 move order apart from giving Black this extra 5...Qb6!? option!

We discussed 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Qb6!? in a thread just before publication of Vigus' excellent "The Pirc in Black and White"; see http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1169821247/15


Here's my recommendation for White from back then:

Stigma wrote on 03/07/07 at 03:12:23:
After 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Qb6 6.a3 (!) I really want to play 6...Nbd7 to meet  7.f4?! with e5! which Erenburg likes for Black (thanks again to JEH!)

[...]

So White may try instead 7.Nf3 Bg7 and now 8.Bd3 Qc7 is similar to the line 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be3 c6 6.Qd2 Qa5!? where the Queen likewise drops back to c7 soon. If white tries e5 on move 7 or 8 Black just goes ...Nd5 and if White exchanges b2 is hanging again. But your idea here would be 8.Bc4 Qc7  (8...Nxe4 9.Bxf7+ again looks uncomfortable) 9.Ba2! (9.0-0 d5!? 10.exd5 Nb6) and maybe you could argue that the active bishop on a2 is an improvement on the classical Be2-lines?


Looking at it now, I think Black should investigate 8.Bc4 Nxe4!?, though White may well be better after that. If White resorts to 8.Bd3 Qc7 or 8.Be2 Qc7, Black has gotten just the complex Pirc position he wants, similar to the Classical with 6.Be2 c6.
  

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SWJediknight
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Re: Universal system against 4.Be3 followed by f3orh3
Reply #1 - 09/12/09 at 14:37:02
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As someone who likes to play Be3, Qd2 and 0-0-0 systems against the Pirc/Modern/Robatsch I've thought of a couple of points:

1.  What does Black do after 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.Qd2?  In that line, 5...Qb6 is well met by 6.0-0-0 side-stepping Black's masterplan.

2.  After 5.f3 Qb6 White can consider 6.Bd3 (intending to meet 6...Qxb2 with 7.Nge2) or 6.Qd2, offering the b-pawn for compensation in Najdorf Poisoned Pawn style.  I imagine that particularly at the fast time controls that are common on the internet, White should have dangerous compensation.  And if 6.Qd2, and Black doesn't take the pawn, then 7.0-0-0.

This ...Qb6 idea looks interesting but I certainly wouldn't fear it if I was playing White.
  
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Chwileulotne85
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Universal system against 4.Be3 followed by f3orh3
09/12/09 at 10:35:49
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HI! sytsem
I've found some very interesting  system for Black in Pirc. The very popular system for White is to play 4.Be3 and 5.h3  or 5.f3. The normal game in this style is:
1.e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6:
4a.Be3 c6 5.f3 or h3 and Qb6!?
4b.f3 c6 5.Be3(or even after 5.Bg5) Qb6!?
4c.h3 c6 5. Be3 and... yes! Qb6!?

The key of this system for Black is not allowed White to castle long 0-0-0! When White will play sth like Qc1,b3,Rb1 or even a3 the Black side can calmly play Bg7 and 0-0.

I have a very good results in this system of Qb6 in internet games with quite strong opponents. They're often a little bit shocked by this move, and it works great to me.

has anyone any thought about this system for Black?

This are the key positions:


  
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