Well me personally I like it more to refute something than to support someone else's idea.
However this g4 move has inspired me to try it out, hopefully very soon.

Oh, thanks for mentioning my idea in 2nd place of the winner list.

I found this competition highly instructive. Mainly, because the position in question forced the participants to find a balance between initiative and material. And this was no easy task. I for once decided to analyse lines where Black refuses to pick up the pawn, but gewgaw demonstrated how Black can probably neutralize the white initiative even better by ...Nxg4. So his piece of analysis is a well deserved winner!

As to Stefan's remark that he was the only one fighting for the white side: Well, this was a competition of analysis (not a practical game), thus, supported with engines it is often easier to defend. Another argument is that obviously many chessplayers out there do not fully trust the gambit idea 8.g4 either. After all, there has not been a single new game played in this line since YB 91 raised the topic.

Thanks again for the competition! This seemed to me to bring about much more serious analysis than in most other threads of our forum.

I just realised I finished up in 3rd place  I am kind of staggered since I had intended supplying more analysis but didnt get around to it. Like Willempie I was surprised by the viability of this g4 move - it is cave-man chess, but sometimes this can work!

Many thanks to René Olthof and Peter Boel from New in Chess - they obviously put a lot of work into their decision - well done! (In the earlier competitions I knew what I did when I preferred to let a poll decide... ) And the topic was well chosen.
Congratulations to the three winners - Keano really shouldn't share his well deserved third prize with me, as my suggestion of 9.Bxe7 Qxe7 10.g5 wasn't officially nominated, it only appeared as a comment in the chat thread. The rules are saying that everybody can nominate only one idea, and that nominations have to be posted in the main thread of the competition.

Has anyone seen white smoke by the jury?

By the way, Jan Werle (a GM known as having a "positional" style) played 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 Be7 5. Bg5 h6 6. Bh4 0-0 7. e3 Ne4 8. Bxe7 Qxe7 9. Rc1 Nxc3 10. Rxc3 c6 11. g4 today (successfully, against IM Van der Werf).  Where will it end?

GMTonyKosten wrote on 11/02/09 at 13:30:09:

I had a long look at my idea again last weekend, but your 9.Bxf6 spoils all my deep creative thoughts
I think that as black you need to play 8..Ba6 9.Bxf6 gxf6 and then prolly 10. cxd5 Bxf1 11.Rxf1 cxd5 I think white is much better here, but black may be able to hold.
Somehow it reminds me of that line in the exchange QGD with an early Bf5 where black also gets those f-pawns, though this looks worse. Iirc short played it a couple of times (and lost to Van Wely if memory serves).

Stefan Buecker wrote on 11/02/09 at 16:21:41:


I analysed 10.Rg1 and 13. ...Ne4 in the nomination thread and black seems okay at least.
@stefanbuecker
1. is kaissiber 35 ready? It wasnt delivered to me so far?!
2. to your nomination 13.Bg2:
Rybka thinks about moves like 13. ... Rb8, but what do you propose against 13. ...Ba6, which prevents white to castle.

Now the NiC competition is over there is an idea which has not yet come to the surface. (Actually, I expected someone else might have this idea and wanted to nominate it.) (Edit: I'm sorry I have completely overlooked gewgaw's analysis of this move in the competition thread, reply #9)

A number of nominations were concerning the game Barbero-Vegh and possible 12th move deviations. When looking at this game I found the following early deviation a quite funny one: 8. g4 Nxg4 9. Bxe7 Qxe7 10. Rg1!?. Play will most likely continue 10... Nf6 11. Ne5 and by now it becomes clear that White plays a real gambit but has a very pleasant development. The knight has arrived at a dominating central square e5, while the queen is ready to join the attack Qd1-f3(-g3).


Some sample lines to show how easy all the fun might be on the white side:

a) 11... Nbd7 12. Qf3 Nxe5 13. dxe5 Nd7 14. Qg2 Qg5 15. Qxg5 hxg5 16. Rxg5 dxc4 17. O-O-O Black was in a hurry to get rid of wNe5 but White has got the somewhat better position in the ending.

b) 11... Bb7 12. Qf3 Ne4 13. Qh5 Nxc3 14. bxc3 Qa3 This attempt to counterattack and give a perpetual is refuted by the nice 15. Rb1! Qxc3+ 16. Kd1 Bc6 17. Nxc6 Nxc6 18. Qxh6 g6 19. Rg3 +- and the rook lift decides.

c) 11... Bb7 12. Qf3 Nc6 13. O-O-O Nxe5 14. dxe5 Ne4 15. Nxe4 dxe4 16. Qf6 Qxf6 17. exf6 g6 18. Rd7 Rac8 19. Bh3 Bc6 20. Re7 Although White is a pawn down in the ending he has some definite compensation with a rook on the 7th rank.

Some more computer analysis will show sufficient ressources for black, I'm sure, but this still looks like a nice idea for the first player.

gewgaw wrote on 10/19/09 at 19:43:56:

I have been a little busy, but hope to have time for it next week.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzPRRpLZzAQ&feature=related

What happened, no discussions anymore?

I will indeed back up my nomination with further analysis when time permits, the idea of it is clear enough but its getting the exact move-order right that is tricky. I may even agree to share my prize with GM King 

I agree this ...Nxg4 line is critical also.

Nope, he mentioned just the lines and words i cited in my post.
He also mentions that 8...Bb7 and 8...dc4 are bad for Black giving white strong kingsideattack and supports this with some analysis. I did not checked them if they compare with the posts here. During the weekend i will take a deeper look on the position and curent posts and may be i will find some new ideas/imrpovements  .
My intuition tells me that Black should try to search additional resources after 8...Ne4, so i think your (and GM King's) idea deserves serious attention.

MilenPetrov wrote on 10/08/09 at 21:43:03:


That's unlucky, I hope he didn't mention any other possible improvements!

I'd like to give a short update to the nominated line (reply #4 in the competition thread) 8.g4 Nbd7 9. Rg1 Bb7 10. g5 Ne4.

A. Tony Kosten raised the question (#12 in this chat thread) whether White has 9 Bxf6 Nxf6 and then 10. Rg1 (to be followed by h4 and g5). Here I like 10... Ne4 and if still 11. h4 then I'd recommend accepting the challenge with Bxh4 12. Nxh4 Qxh4 13. Nxe4 dxe4 There is probably not much White has after this. Black is a pawn up, three pairs of minor pieces are exchanged, and even getting the rook to the h-file remains diffucult, say
a) 14. g5 hxg5 15. Qc2 (or 15. Rg3 e5) 15... c5 16. O-O-O cxd4 17. Rxd4 Bb7 18. Bg2 Rfd8 or
b) 14. Rg3 c5 (even 14... Qg5 should be fine) 15. g5 Rd8 16.
gxh6 Qxh6 or
c) 14. Qc2 Bb7 15. O-O-O Qg5 16. Bg2 Qxg4 17. Bh1 Qf5
In all lines black has the advantage with an extra pawn, I think.

B. Tony Kosten also mentioned (same #12 in this chat thread) 9 Bxf6 Nxf6 and then 10. Ne5 This knight jump is surprisingly effective, I must admit. (Or maybe not so surprisingly if we look at the white rook staying at h1 which makes the continuation h4 plus g5 much more dangerous.) Play might continue 10. Ne5 c5 11. h4 cxd4 12. exd4 Ne4 13. g5 hxg5 14. hxg5 Bxg5 15. Nxe4 dxe4 16. Qh5 Bh6 17. Ng4 Qg5 and this is about level in the endgame when White takes on h6 several times.

If Black is not happy with this course of events he may use the alternative move order 8.g4 Bb7 9. Rg1 Nbd7 which I mentioned in the competition posting and which avoids this line altogether.

C. Stefan Buecker (#23 in this chat) gave the line 8...Nbd7 9.Rg1 Bb7 10.g5 Ne4 11.Qc2 g6 12.cxd5 exd5 13.0-0-0 Nxc3 14.Qxc3 h5 15.Kb1 "with some play for White".


I agree that this is very sensible play by White as his king now reached a safe place as well. However, in this position there is still play and counterplay. In other words, both sides have their fair share of chances. Black continues with the natural 15... c5
a) 16. dxc5 bxc5 17. Bg3 Qb6 would give excellent counterplay in a position with hanging pawns.
b) 16. Bg3 and here Black has to resist the temptation to start a pawn storm with 16... c4 because of White's play with 17. Qc2! followed by Nh4 and f2-f4-f5. But Black has the better 16...  Re8 17. Qc2 (White also has to avoid a trap: 17. dxc5 bxc5 18. Bb5 Bf8 19. Ne5? Rxe5! 20. Bxe5 Nxe5 21. Qxe5 Bg7 22. Qf4 Qb6-+) 17... Bf8 Black has regrouped his pieces and is IMHO o.k. If White tries 18. Nh4 Rc8! 19. Nxg6 cxd4 20. Qf5 fxg6 21. Qxg6+ Bg7 then I'd prefer the black side with the extra piece for three white pawns.
I believe that there is enough and interesting counterplay for the black side in the lines after 14. Qxc3 h5 15.Kb1 c5.

However, I would like to point out that the black player also has the immediate 14... c5 (instead of 14... h5) at his disposal. Some sample lines are then
15. Kb1 Rc8 16. dxc5 (16. Bh3 h5 17. dxc5 bxc5 18. Ne5 Nxe5 19. Bxc8 d4 20. exd4 cxd4 21. Bxb7 dxc3 22. Rxd8 Rxd8 23. Re1 Rd2 {equal}) 16... d4 17. exd4 Nxc5 18. Qe3 (18. d5 Bxd5 {also holds.}) 18... Be4+ 19. Ka1 Nb3+! 20. axb3 (20. Qxb3 Bc2 {picks up the rook.}) 20... Qd5 21. Bd3 Bxf3 22. Qxe7 Bxd1 23. Rxd1 Qxb3 24. Qe1 Rfd8 with a strong counterattack. More interesting stuff to study.

It's a tightrope walk, but might actually work. 22.Qf4 += (instead of your 22.Qg2) gives White only a small advantage in the ending.

Matemax wrote on 10/06/09 at 15:12:48:

Indeed! I thought that you might be losing your queen after 11..Qxb2 12.Nb5 e5 13.a3 planning Rb1, but I could be wrong.

@Matemax
After 10...Qb4 what about 11 Nd2 which attacks g4, unpins the c3-knight and indirectly defends b2? 11...Nf6 12 a3 Qe7 13 dxe6 Bxe6 14 Qf3 followed by Rg1 is then a reasonable continuation.

@Keano.
Hmm, 14...Bb7 15.cxd5 Bxd5 16.h5 Kh8 17.Qc2 e5 (17...Bc6 18.Bg2) 18.0-0-0 +=. But in "my" move order 14...c5 15.h5 cxd4 16.cxd5 Rd8! comes into consideration. I like 10.g5 more than the other treatment, because it is tempting for Black to grab the pawn g5 and try to keep it.

In the case of 8...Ba6 (Willempie) 9.Bxf6 Bxf6 10.h4 (Tony Kosten) Bxc4 (Willempie) 11.Bxc4 dxc4 12.g5 hxg5 13.hxg5 Bxg5 (again Tony Kosten), the PC likes 14.Ne4 Bh6 15.Ne5 f5 16.Rxh6, e.g. 16...Qe8 17.Kd2 +-.

Another nominated line is 8...Nbd7 9.Rg1 Bb7 10.g5 Ne4 (Papageno) 11.Qc2 g6 12.0-0-0 Nxc3 13. bxc3 h5. "He just doesn't allow any open lines at his king's side in most lines", Papageno. White can try 12.cxd5 exd5 13.0-0-0 Nxc3 (13...hxg5? 14.Nxe4 gxh4 15.Nc5! followed by 16.Rxg6+) 14.Qxc3 h5 15.Kb1 with some play for White. Instead of this safe, but a bit passive line, Black could accept the sharp invitation: 11...hxg5 12.Nxe4 dxe4 13.Nxg5 Bb4+ 14.Kd1 c5 15.Nxe6 Qxh4


16.Nxg7 Kh8 17.Rg3, unclear.

It would be surprising if none of Black's many 8th move alternatives gave him at least equality. Those members who like White's chances should not hope to refute all of these lines. Rather focus on one of Black's major lines and find a good idea in this limited area.  
 

GMTonyKosten wrote on 10/05/09 at 18:44:43:

Well personally I thought that after 14..hxg5 either another pair of light pieces get off and then the queen could go to f6, otherwise the bishop should go there (combined with g6 if necessary). I thought that keeping the pawn on g4 for a while an first put some pressure on c6 wold be more dangerous to black.

OTB you would prolly win in another 10 moves with either white or black against me
Quote:

Yes you get an attack, though I am not sure if it is enough for the 2 pawns. Black could defend with bishop to f6 at some point or even h6. Personally I always like these kinds of positions as often there is only two results possible.

I must confess that I didnt look much at this Bxf6 idea, which is kinda stupid as it is quite common in the Tartakower.

GMTonyKosten wrote on 10/05/09 at 16:59:57:


Hmm, well I suppose I have to continue more or less to my standard prescription, something like: 10...Nxc3 11.bxc3 Nd7 12.h4 Bb7 13.g5 hxg5 (13...h5 might be worth a look but I'm wary- I'll continue with natural moves) 14.hxg5 and now 14...c5



Whose king is weaker? I´m not exactly trembling in my boots since any h-file attempts can be met by ...g6 and ...Kg7, meanwhile at some point the natural harmony in Black´s pieces will have to tell. White is basically playing coffee-house chess!

GMTonyKosten wrote on 10/05/09 at 16:59:57:

In the first line I just dont see it after a move like 12..c6 as I see no way through on the kingside. 10. h4 Bxc4 should be doable too.

Markovich wrote on 10/05/09 at 14:10:21:

It should be the thread just below or above: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1253926483

GMTonyKosten wrote on 09/26/09 at 01:04:16:


So pardon my confusion, where are the original terms of the competition?

gewgaw wrote on 09/30/09 at 18:44:15:


gewgaw,
I don't want to be the spoil sport but my impression is that strictly speaking this is a novelty but possibly there is not much of an improvement over the Nielsen game.

• Nielsen-Georgiev was 10.h4 Bb7 11.g5 hxg5
• and you proposed 10.g5 hxg5 11.h4 when Bb7 (not mentioned in your analysis) reaches the same position of their game.

So on the one hand your new move only gives some extra opportunities at move 11 to Black. On the other hand you might argue that these alternatives are new traps for Black to fall into. I'm not yet decided which view to take here.

AlanG wrote on 09/30/09 at 19:59:27:


damn u r right; I´ve to check it again; would be a pity, if it didnt work.

Nomination #1 - 10.g5!, which obviously leads to an advantage for white
I hope we see more nominations in the next days and not at the end of october, after all this is a forum to discuss about ideas.

gewgaw wrote on 09/26/09 at 13:33:09:


Interesting, maybe they intended these to be the other way around and I mistakenly swapped them, or maybe having a choice with the SOS book is worth more than 5 Euros?!

TN wrote on 09/26/09 at 01:12:15:

In the first (French) competition TN had put a similar question; my reply was:

Stefan Buecker wrote on 04/01/09 at 09:13:28:

The situation now is slightly different, with the NIC staff deciding instead of the poll. But shouldn't we trust on the NIC staff's ability to tell a good idea from a bad? Start worrying about their qualification only when you've actually found two promising ideas!

I like the new topic very much, and what I like even more is that they apparently forgot to exclude me from participation.

Firstly, thank you to New In Chess for setting up the competition and choosing what is in my opinion a very interesting subject for the competition!

Secondly, I have a question: If you make a nomination and then withdraw it, can another person submit your old nomination with more detailed analysis? Alternatively, can you submit a nomination which refutes a new idea (either suggested in the survey or in this thread)?

PS: Thanks!