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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C45: Beating the Scotch Gambit? (Read 30720 times)
SWJediknight
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Re: Beating the Scotch Gambit?
Reply #23 - 09/28/09 at 20:26:31
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To take an extreme example, the Phillidor via. the common move order 1...d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5/Nbd7 is completely ignored, and in the 1...e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Nf6 move order, the authors advocate 4.de5, which should only lead to equality as the position is too symmetrical after ...d6 for White to claim any advantage.

4.dxe5 Nxe4 5.Qd5! is widely considered to give White the edge.  Your point about coverage of 1...d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5/Nbd7 is right though.

Having seen the various opinions on that controversial book I get the impression that it's quite a good book for ideas at the club level, but dishonest in its evaluations and analysis and thus not a book that should be taken as gospel. 

In the 5.e5 Ne4 line I suggest that if White wants to gambit the c-pawn then 6.Bd5 Nc5 7.c3 is more advisable.
  
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Schaakhamster
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Re: Beating the Scotch Gambit?
Reply #22 - 09/28/09 at 18:21:00
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Keano wrote on 09/28/09 at 14:12:07:
well, more "bold statements" ...Ne4 is an interesting move, but "best move" - lets calm down. I thought the pawn sacrifice was an interesting idea (6.Bd5 and 6.0-0 are alternatives)

The following game is interesting in that Nakamura went for the sacrifice.

[Event "GMB"]
[Site "Wijk aan Zee NED"]
[Date "2004.??.??"]
[White "Nakamura,H"]
[Black "Fressinet,L"]
[Round "13"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2571"]
[BlackElo "2636"]
[ECO "C44"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Bc4 Nf6 5. e5
Ne4 6. Qe2 Nc5 7. c3 dxc3 8. Nxc3 Be7 9. Be3
O-O 10. O-O-O Ne6 11. Ne4 Qe8 12. h4 d6 13. exd6
cxd6 14. Nxd6 Bxd6 15. Rxd6 Na5 16. Bd3 Qa4 17. Kb1
Nf4 18. Qc2 Qxc2+ 19. Bxc2 Ne6 20. b3 b6 21. Ng5
h6 22. Nxe6 Bxe6 23. Be4 Rac8 24. f3 Rfe8 25. Bf4
Re7 26. Rc1 Rce8 27. b4 Nb7 28. Rdc6 f5 29. Bd3
Kf7 30. Rc7 a5 31. Bb5 Rd8 32. Rxe7+ Kxe7 33. Rc7+
Kf6 34. Rxb7 Rd4 35. Bc1 1-0

About ...d3, you are right that this is an improvement, since mega GM Fressinet played it next time, however I´m not sure as White it would have me quaking in my boots:

[Event "ch-FRA Top 16 Poule Haute"]
[Site "Port Barcares FRA"]
[Date "2005.??.??"]
[White "Abergel,T"]
[Black "Fressinet,L"]
[Round "8"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2456"]
[BlackElo "2638"]
[ECO "C44"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Bc4 Nf6 5. e5
Ne4 6. Qe2 Nc5 7. c3 d3 8. Qe3 Be7 9. b4
Ne6 10. Bxd3 d6 11. exd6 Bxd6 12. O-O O-O 13. Bc2
Nf4 14. Re1 Ng6 15. Qg5 Bd7 16. Qxd8 Raxd8 17. Bg5
f6 18. Be3 Nge5 19. Nbd2 Bg4 20. Nxe5 Bxe5 21. Rac1
Be6 22. Be4 1/2-1/2


I was talking about d3; Ne4 is just a low-theory alternative to the mainline. I didn't claim it is the best but I do claim it is adequate.

7. ... d3 isn't better for black but it does take sting out of the iniative of white. I do believe a comfortable equality is the result. 7. .. dxc3 just doesn't make sense to me: you let white play Qe2 with a tempo and then you open up the position out of free will... .

  
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Keano
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Re: Beating the Scotch Gambit?
Reply #21 - 09/28/09 at 14:12:07
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well, more "bold statements" ...Ne4 is an interesting move, but "best move" - lets calm down. I thought the pawn sacrifice was an interesting idea (6.Bd5 and 6.0-0 are alternatives)

The following game is interesting in that Nakamura went for the sacrifice.

[Event "GMB"]
[Site "Wijk aan Zee NED"]
[Date "2004.??.??"]
[White "Nakamura,H"]
[Black "Fressinet,L"]
[Round "13"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2571"]
[BlackElo "2636"]
[ECO "C44"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Bc4 Nf6 5. e5
Ne4 6. Qe2 Nc5 7. c3 dxc3 8. Nxc3 Be7 9. Be3
O-O 10. O-O-O Ne6 11. Ne4 Qe8 12. h4 d6 13. exd6
cxd6 14. Nxd6 Bxd6 15. Rxd6 Na5 16. Bd3 Qa4 17. Kb1
Nf4 18. Qc2 Qxc2+ 19. Bxc2 Ne6 20. b3 b6 21. Ng5
h6 22. Nxe6 Bxe6 23. Be4 Rac8 24. f3 Rfe8 25. Bf4
Re7 26. Rc1 Rce8 27. b4 Nb7 28. Rdc6 f5 29. Bd3
Kf7 30. Rc7 a5 31. Bb5 Rd8 32. Rxe7+ Kxe7 33. Rc7+
Kf6 34. Rxb7 Rd4 35. Bc1 1-0

About ...d3, you are right that this is an improvement, since mega GM Fressinet played it next time, however I´m not sure as White it would have me quaking in my boots:

[Event "ch-FRA Top 16 Poule Haute"]
[Site "Port Barcares FRA"]
[Date "2005.??.??"]
[White "Abergel,T"]
[Black "Fressinet,L"]
[Round "8"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2456"]
[BlackElo "2638"]
[ECO "C44"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Bc4 Nf6 5. e5
Ne4 6. Qe2 Nc5 7. c3 d3 8. Qe3 Be7 9. b4
Ne6 10. Bxd3 d6 11. exd6 Bxd6 12. O-O O-O 13. Bc2
Nf4 14. Re1 Ng6 15. Qg5 Bd7 16. Qxd8 Raxd8 17. Bg5
f6 18. Be3 Nge5 19. Nbd2 Bg4 20. Nxe5 Bxe5 21. Rac1
Be6 22. Be4 1/2-1/2
  
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Re: Beating the Scotch Gambit?
Reply #20 - 09/28/09 at 13:40:27
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I can only thank the gods for COWE. Several players at my club play the Scotch gambit thanks to this book but the book doesn't consider the best move after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Bc4 Nf6 5. e5 Ne4 (recommended by Davies in Play 1. e4 e5!) 6. Qe2 Nc5 7. c3. It only considers 7. ... dxc3 which is good for white but neglects the best move: 7. ... d3 after which I don't see a lot of problems for black.

  
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Keano
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Re: Beating the Scotch Gambit?
Reply #19 - 09/28/09 at 13:03:05
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Its not the Anand series, its an ideas book with some very good analysis thrown in. The Watson review is a complete hatchet job.

Versus the Philidor this line with dxe5 is the same one given by Khalifman and usually the main recommendation against this order, so I cant really see your point there. You made some other "bold statements" about the French which I´ll be happy to destroy or agree with depending on your analysis.
  
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Re: Beating the Scotch Gambit?
Reply #18 - 09/28/09 at 12:52:11
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Keano wrote on 09/28/09 at 12:40:46:
there are some gaps but to argue "dishonesty" is a big leap - more likely "lazy". On the bright side to make up for the gaps it has some interesting new ideas and a novelty in the Winawer that busts Black completely in the Bd2 line. Swings and roundabouts, a book with holes but very interesting ideas and some good analysis - trick is to pick and choose. Bottom line is it is an interesting book I´d recommend to any junior or improving player, promotes enthusiasm for the game.


Having reread the review, I disagree. If you compare the repertoire with Perelshteyn's games, as Watson has done, it is clear that if Perelshteyn has played a game where the opening repertoire in the book fails to achieve the desired result, then the variation is completely ignored. Also, one good novelty in a chapter does not make the chapter good - in fact, in the Bd2 line most of the assessments are incorrect as the key variations are nearly always ignored. Even in the variation they refuted, the authors neglected several more important variations, and several of the proposed 'novelties' are not superior to previously played moves in the given position, in that they also fail to obtain the advantage.

Whilst some of the ideas are good, the analysis is not very good as it is either incomplete, offers incorrect evaluations or ignores important options. To take an extreme example, the Phillidor via. the common move order 1...d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5/Nbd7 is completely ignored, and in the 1...e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Nf6 move order, the authors advocate 4.de5, which should only lead to equality as the position is too symmetrical after ...d6 for White to claim any advantage. I recall that the coverage of the Voronezh Variation in the Alekhine was also very brief although to be fair that was probably one of the better sections of the book as at least the analysis given was of a good quality.

The book could be recommended to a new player, say under 1600, to introduce them to an opening repertoire, but the main problem in my view is that it teacher the player bad habits in studying the opening and will leave the reader unprepared for the most common variations. This sets up the player for a range of problems later in their career. As Watson says in his conclusion, 'some GMs are profiting from this book, but not by improving their chess.'
  

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Keano
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Re: Beating the Scotch Gambit?
Reply #17 - 09/28/09 at 12:40:46
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there are some gaps but to argue "dishonesty" is a big leap - more likely "lazy". On the bright side to make up for the gaps it has some interesting new ideas and a novelty in the Winawer that busts Black completely in the Bd2 line. Swings and roundabouts, a book with holes but very interesting ideas and some good analysis - trick is to pick and choose. Bottom line is it is an interesting book I´d recommend to any junior or improving player, promotes enthusiasm for the game and not the usual database dump stuff.
  
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Re: Beating the Scotch Gambit?
Reply #16 - 09/28/09 at 10:45:59
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Opening books are also about scientific integrity to some extent. Leaving out Black's best, while well-known or easy-to-find moves in a repertoire book for White is dishonest. This is exactly what Dzjindzi did as has been proven not only by Watson. I think that a good reason for bashing.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Beating the Scotch Gambit?
Reply #15 - 09/28/09 at 10:29:20
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Scotch gambit is not bad, Efimenko even just gave it a bash against Short, admittedly not very successfully:

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=5788

Short went the 2 Knights route.

By the way I wouldnt bash the Dzindzi book too much (despite Watsons review) - chess is all about opinions. Your club-mates are also taking what they like from Dzindzi and adding their own since e5 instead of cxd4 Giuco is a Sveshnikov speciality and Dzindzi advocates the normal cxd4.
  
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Re: Beating the Scotch Gambit?
Reply #14 - 09/28/09 at 01:21:00
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Devilman wrote on 09/26/09 at 22:59:12:
Hello,
I'm a 1..e5 noob, i didn't play it for many years and now i would like to resurrect it, my elo is 1800+.
My new friends at the chess club usually play the Scotch Gambit and i would like to find a neat way to get advantage against them in the game, i think they studied the "Chess Openings for White, Explained - Alburt, Dzindzichashvili & Perelshteyn".

An example
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Bc4 Bc5 (i don't know 2 knight defense so i try to transpose to giuoco piano)
5. c3 Nf6 6. e5 d5 7. Bb5 Ne4 8. cxd4 Bb4+ 9. Bd2 Nxd2 10. Nbxd2 Bd7 11. 0-0
My idea is 11..Ne7 to change the white bishop... but i don't like this position...
So I would like to know what theory says about scotch gambit (which i never heard about when i was young  Huh) or if there's a better way to play against it, can you lend me some lines/ideas?


It's a sin to play 1...e5 and not know the Two Knights, especially at your level.  Take up the Two Knights!  In your line, 4...Nf6!.
  

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Re: Beating the Scotch Gambit?
Reply #13 - 09/27/09 at 20:42:43
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Devilman wrote on 09/26/09 at 22:59:12:
Hello,
I'm a 1..e5 noob, i didn't play it for many years and now i would like to resurrect it, my elo is 1800+.
My new friends at the chess club usually play the Scotch Gambit and i would like to find a neat way to get advantage against them in the game, i think they studied the "Chess Openings for White, Explained - Alburt, Dzindzichashvili & Perelshteyn".

An example
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Bc4 Bc5 (i don't know 2 knight defense so i try to transpose to giuoco piano)
5. c3 Nf6 6. e5 d5 7. Bb5 Ne4 8. cxd4 Bb4+ 9. Bd2 Nxd2 10. Nbxd2 Bd7 11. 0-0
My idea is 11..Ne7 to change the white bishop... but i don't like this position...
So I would like to know what theory says about scotch gambit (which i never heard about when i was young  Huh) or if there's a better way to play against it, can you lend me some lines/ideas?

I dotn see any problem with your resulting position. An alternative idea may be to play 0-0 iso Bd7 and then move away with the knight Ne7-g6 followed by moves like f6 and Bg4, after all you have the bishop pair.
Apart from the books mentioned an alternative is to look up some old analysed games. People like Steinitz and Anderssen played these openings and often their games are analysed.

PS there is nothing wrong with your move Bb4, it is just that in the d4 gambits like the Scotch (though this line is a Giuoco) Bb4 is sometimes not so good as it relieves pressure from d4.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Beating the Scotch Gambit?
Reply #12 - 09/27/09 at 20:15:47
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Devilman wrote on 09/27/09 at 00:31:33:
@MNb: I wrote that example because it was a blitz game i played yesterday at the club.
You are correct, i know no theory about 2K and italian, but it's hard to find a good book for black.
Thank you for the hint, i won't do the Bb4+ automatically.
Another question if i don't disturb... Is 4..Qe7 a good move?


No, you don't disturb. It's just that I doubt if we really can help you with your questions. It's not true that it's hard to find books for Black. More or less recently are published books by Kaufmann, Marin (repertoires for Black) and Palkovi (general overview of the Italian). If I am not mistaken the repertoire book by Davies also recommends the Italian. Emms prefers the 2K.
But at your stage you also could do well with older stuff. On my shelves I have volume XI/1 of the German version of the Euwe-series and Pachmann's Moderne Schachtheorie. Both are from the 80's and when it comes to stuff like this they still are satisfactory. In these two books you already could have found out about the disadvantages of 5...Qe7. They are known since the corr. games London-Edinburgh of 1824.
Thank you for confirming my point. Now I am strongly convinced that you need some good book.
  

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Re: Beating the Scotch Gambit?
Reply #11 - 09/27/09 at 09:15:34
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I completely agree with MNb in reply#1, in the given line I recommend 8...Bb6!

In the Italian game ...exd4 and ...Qe7 doesn´t fit together! Qe7 only makes sense
within a strongpoint defence (...d6, ...Bb6), then it´s a somewhat passive but
non-theoretical & underrated and therefor interesting setup!

tracke  Smiley
  
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Re: Beating the Scotch Gambit?
Reply #10 - 09/27/09 at 02:44:27
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This puts me in mind of a game Rossolimo-Evans which went 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Qe7 5. d4 ed(?) 6. 0-0 d3 and now Evans described 7. e5 (as played by Rossolimo and given by TN) as "a sharp move which virtually wins by force."  Classic open-game stuff.
  
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Re: Beating the Scotch Gambit?
Reply #9 - 09/27/09 at 02:43:08
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In the 5...Nxe4 line against the 5.0-0 Two Knights, 8...Qh5 is theoretically preferred to 8...Qa5 because it is a simpler way to equalise, via encouraging queen trades and sterile positions in most lines.  IMHO, this is not so good if you're playing for a win, in which case I suggest 8...Qa5 may actually be the better bet, as it's also equal, but tends to keep more pieces on the board.

I agree that 5.e5 Ne4 is a perfectly good line for Black, as covered by Emms and Davies in their respective 1.e4 e5 books.  I recall their problem was that they gave 6.Qe2 Nc5 7.c3?!, which is well met by 7...d3!.

If you prefer 4...Bc5 5.c3 Nf6, then Chess Openings for White Explained contains some gaping holes in its coverage of that as well (again see Watson's review) so you could well pick up some points there.  The disadvantage of playing into their main line with the gaping hole (6.cxd4 Bb4+ 7.Bd2 Bxd2+ 8.Nbxd2 d5 9.exd5 Nxd5 10.Qb3 Na5 11.Qa4+ Nc6 12.Ne5?!) is that 12.Qb3 Na5 leads to a draw, as I think White may have a small edge after 12...Nce7.  7...Nxe4 is the main alternative, though I think its coverage in the aforementioned book looks like it would steer White to equality.

You will also need to watch for 6.0-0.  When playing the Scotch Gambit with White myself I have always preferred the 6.0-0 line and none of my opponents knew how to defend against it.
  
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