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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C11: Steinitz options (Read 14445 times)
ArKheiN
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Re: C11: Steinitz options
Reply #18 - 05/24/23 at 13:58:09
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dom wrote on 05/17/10 at 21:16:03:
White has to play: 9.ooo! where the "closing" move 9...c4 is simply bad because 9.Bxc4 dxc4 10.d5
with a very strong advantage for White in the middlegame....and the transposition move 9..Be7 (Black can play Be7 at move 8) runs into 10.Na4!  Qb4 (10..Qa7 11.f5 exf5 12.Nc3 cxd4 13.Nxd4 +-)  11.Nxc5 Nxc5 (11....Qxd2+ 12.Nxd2! Nxc5 13.dxc5 d4 14.Bg1 Bc5 15.Nb3) 12.dxc5 Bxc5 13.Qxb4 Bxe3+ 14.Qd2 Bxd2+ 15.Rxd2 oo 16.g3! (a prophylactic move against f6) Bd7 17.Nd4 Nxd4 18.Rxd4 f6 19.exf6 Rxf6 +=

OK not so easy to win this ending but White has a safe little advantage


This line for Black is my pet line and is almost my "copyright" and could be named after me, or I would name it Geneva variation. It has a subject from Watson on chesspublishing 2020.

8.Qd2 Qb6!? 9.0-0-0 (not forced, the move I wanted to provoke) 9..Qc7! 10.Kb1 b5 (10..c4 is still premature because of 11.Bxc4! +/-) 11.f5 c4! (the point of the Qb6-Qc7 was to get a queenside pawnroll attack against the White king). The line is so powerful that 11.dxc5 became the mainline with a += typical French advantage where I have always been able to equalize completly after precise play.
  
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Re: C11: Steinitz options
Reply #17 - 05/10/23 at 19:40:31
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Hi.

In correspondence it seems like 7...Qb6 is pretty much the only move that is actually losing a lot of games for black. Even 7...Rb8 is mostly draws nowadays.

[Event "OP-04908"]
[Site "LSS"]
[Date "2020.01.12"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Richter, Klaus"]
[Black "Henke, Simon"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C11"]
[WhiteElo "1756"]
[BlackElo "1598"]
[PlyCount "123"]
[EventDate "2020.01.01"]

1. d4 e6 2. e4 d5 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. f4 c5 6. Nf3 Nc6 7. Be3 Rb8 8. Be2 (
8. Qd2 Qa5 9. a3 (9. Be2 a6 10. a3 cxd4 11. Nxd4 Bc5 12. Nb3 Bxe3 13. Qxe3 Qb6
14. Qxb6 Nxb6 15. O-O-O Ke7 16. a4 Nd7 17. Nd4 g5 18. g3 gxf4 19. gxf4 f6 20.
exf6+ Nxf6 21. Rhe1 Kd6 22. Bf3 Rf8 23. b3 Bd7 24. Nde2 Ne7 {1/2-1/2 (24)
Susla,V (2336)-Koch,C (2360) LSS 2020}) 9... b5 10. Ra2 a6 11. dxc5 b4 12. axb4
Qxb4 13. Nd4 (13. Na4 Nxc5 14. Nxc5 Bxc5 15. Qxb4 Nxb4 16. Bxc5 Nxa2 17. Kd2
Nb4 18. Bd6 Rb6 19. Bc5 Rb8 20. Bd6 Rb6 21. c3 Rxd6 22. exd6 Nc6 23. Bd3 Kd7
24. Ra1 f6 25. Bxa6 Bxa6 26. Rxa6 Rb8 27. b4 e5 28. fxe5 fxe5 29. h3 h5 30. g3
{1/2-1/2 (30) Roth Jr.,P (2198)-Voveris,G (2380) ICCF 2020}) 13... Nxd4 14.
Qxd4 Bxc5 15. Qxb4 Bxb4 (15... Rxb4 16. Bd2 Rb8 17. Be2 h6 18. b3 Bb7 19. Na4
Be7 20. Rf1 O-O 21. Bc3 Bc6 22. Bxa6 g5 23. g3 gxf4 24. Rxf4 Bg5 25. Rg4 Ra8
26. Be2 Kh7 27. Rb4 Bd8 28. Rf4 Kg8 29. Rg4+ Kh8 30. Bb4 Ba5 31. Bxa5 {1/2-1/2
(31) McDermott,F (2332)-Hughes,S (2319) ICCF 2021}) 16. Bxa6 Bxa6 17. Rxa6 O-O
18. Ke2 Rfc8 19. Ra7 Bxc3 20. bxc3 Nc5 21. Bd4 Ne4 22. Kd3 Nc5+ 23. Ke3 Ne4 24.
Kd3 Nc5+ 25. Ke3 Ne4 26. Kd3 {1/2-1/2 (26) Zhorov,B (2245)-Garau,B (2252) ICCF
2022}) (8. Bd3 cxd4 9. Nxd4 Nxd4 10. Bxd4 Bc5 11. Be2 Qb6 12. Bxc5 Nxc5 13. Qd4
a6 14. a4 O-O 15. b3 Bd7 16. a5 Qc7 17. b4 Ne4 18. Nxe4 dxe4 19. c4 b5 20. axb6
Qxb6 21. Qxb6 Rxb6 22. Kf2 Rxb4 23. Rxa6 g6 24. Rd1 Ba4 25. Rdd6 Rfb8 26. Ke3
Bb3 27. Kd4 Bc2 28. Ra3 Rb2 29. Ke3 Bb1 30. c5 Rc2 31. c6 Rbb2 32. Bd1 Rc1 33.
Rb3 Rxb3+ 34. Bxb3 Kg7 35. Rd1 Rc3+ 36. Kd4 Rxb3 37. c7 e3 38. Re1 Rd3+ 39. Kc4
e2 40. Rxe2 Rd5 41. Kb4 Bd3 42. c8=Q {1/2-1/2 (42) Polishchuk,A (2317)-Garau,B
(2252) ICCF 2022}) 8... Be7 9. O-O O-O 10. Qd2 a6 11. a3 b5 12. Nd1 c4 13. c3
a5 14. Bf2 b4 15. Ne3 g6 16. axb4 axb4 17. Qc2 Qb6 18. Nxc4 dxc4 19. d5 Nc5 20.
dxc6 bxc3 21. bxc3 Qxc6 22. Nd4 Qc7 23. Bxc4 Bb7 24. Nb5 Qc6 25. Bd4 Ne4 26.
Bd3 Nc5 27. Rf2 Nxd3 28. Qxd3 Ra8 29. Rb1 Ba6 30. Rfb2 Rfb8 31. h3 Kg7 32. Qe2
Rxb5 33. Rxb5 Rd8 34. Qf1 Qe4 35. Re1 Qf5 36. g4 Qc2 37. Re2 Qa4 38. Rb1 Bd3
39. f5 gxf5 40. gxf5 Kh8 41. f6 Rg8+ 42. Kh2 Bf8 43. Rb8 Bxe2 44. Qxe2 Qc6 45.
h4 Qd5 46. Rb1 Bh6 47. Rf1 Bf8 48. Rg1 Rg6 49. Rg3 Qb3 50. Rd3 Qb5 51. Kh3 Bh6
52. Be3 Bf8 53. h5 Rg8 54. Bf4 Qc4 55. Qf3 Qc7 56. Rd2 Qa7 57. Rd8 Qc7 58. Re8
Qd7 59. Ra8 h6 60. Bc1 Qb5 61. Rxf8 Rxf8 62. Qe3 1-0
  
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Re: C11: Steinitz options
Reply #16 - 05/10/23 at 14:51:15
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Anyone considering the Classical French from the Black side will consider the popular Steinitz line:

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. f4 c5 6. Nf3 Nc6 7. Be3

At this point 7...Qb6 is purposeful and very much a French type of approach. However extended analysis doesn't seem to support it.

7...a6 has been recommended by several authors. John Watson analyzes four games in his May 2023 ChessPublishing column. I think they go a long way in bringing a player up-to-speed in the Steinitz.
  
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Re: Steinitz options
Reply #15 - 05/19/10 at 13:44:10
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kevinfat wrote on 04/11/10 at 05:45:31:
dom wrote on 03/01/10 at 18:44:07:
Na4 is the point in Boleslavsky system (with f4,Be3): Black looses control on important main dark squares, d4 pawn square is most important because it's blockading square.

If White can keep control/occupation with piece of this square, it often gives positional advantage.

A) 6...Nc6 7.Be3!? (Boleslavsky main line)

7...Qb6 (Portisch,Amsterdam 1964 (Tiemann)) 8.Na4! (main plan) Qa5+ 9.c3 cxd4 (9...b6!? Khalifman ; 9...c4 Chandler-Vaganian,Leningrad 1987) 10.b4!  (10.Nxd4 ?! 11.b4 Bb4! 12.cxb4 Qxb4+ 13.Bd2 Qe7 =+)

and now here is sacrifice lin with 10...Nxb4. If Black doesn't sacrifice and play "slow" move then White wins his positional advantage: 10...Qc7 11.Nxd4 Nxd4 (11...Be7 12.Bd3 Nxd4 13.Bxd4 +=  White has excellent control for both wings) 12.Bxd4 Nb8 (a standard move sequence to fight against the d4 blockade) 13.a3 Nc6 14.Be3 g5 (14...Be7 15.Bd3 += Suetin-Liberzon,1960 (Tiemman)) 15.Qh5 = or += Semyonov-Murey,URSS 1966 (Suetin)

And the sacrifice is usually given in White favor because of these lines: 11.cxb4 Bxb4+ 12.Bd2 Bxd2 13.Nxd2 b6 (13..g5!? Ivanchuk 14.Rb1! gxf4 15.Bb5 and now Black has only bad moves ; 13...oo 14.Bd3 b5 15.Nb2 Nb6 16.oo! Nc4 17.Nbxc4 bxc4 18.Bxh7+ Kxh7 19.Qh5+ Kg8 20.Nf3 g6 21.Qh6 Qc7 22.Nh4! and now believe it or not, but this line is winning for White)  with 14.Bd3 or 14.Qb3 to follow.

I don't agree too much with this analysis and believe Black can survive and play this  sacrifice line



I don't see how 22.Nh4 is winning for white. I could find ways to bust things such as 22..Re8 or 22..f5. But I couldn't find an obvious win for white against 22..f6 even with the help of a computer.


I want to indicate that 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 Qb6 8.Na4 Qa5+ 9.c3 cxd4 10.b4 Nxb4 11.cxb4 Bxb4+ 12.Bd2 Bxd2+ 13.Nxd2 0-0 14.Bd3 b5 15.Nb2 Nb6 16.0-0 Nc4 17.Nbxc4 (17.Bxh7+ is an even more complicated alternative, leading also to advantage for white), bxc4 18.Bxh7+ Kxh7 19.Qh5+ Kg8 20.Nf3 g6 (Maybe a bit tougher is f6 although I won't deny that also here white obtains a big advantage after some very precise play.) 21.Qh6 Qc7 22.f5! (This has been played in 5 computergames, euch sorry correspondence and freestyle games with every time 1- 0 as result since 2007! Nh4 what Dom presents is new and looks very suspicious to say the least.)
A) 22. ... exf5 23.Rae1 f6 24.exf6 Qh7 25.Qf4 Qf7 26.Re7 Qxf6 27.Rfe1 Bd7 28.Rxd7 +- in fact in 2 correspondence games black resigned a few moves further
B) 22. ... f6 (Less obvious but stronger.) 23.fxg6 Qg7 24. Qh4 f5 (Maybe a slight improvement over a correspondence game in which black played Qh8 and lost.) 25. Nxd4 Rb8 26. Rf3 +/-
  
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Re: Steinitz options
Reply #14 - 05/18/10 at 01:07:36
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Btw, this site has quite a bit on the Steinitz options, including at least one long thread on 7...Qb6 and the longest thread of all on 7...cd.

Dom has graciously repeated some of the key information.
  
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Re: Steinitz options
Reply #13 - 05/17/10 at 21:16:03
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@kevinfat: you are right ... my mistake.

@joachumvitriol: good question

Black is mixing two plans: one is to play Qb6 and double-attack of d4 and b2 pawns and one is to play a6 (7...Rb8!? has been played with same idea) to prepare c4 and b5 with a queenside counterattack if White dares to long castle.

Refutation for White is not 9.Na4?! (main idea of Boleslavsky) not because Black as an escape square a7 or queen, but because Black can simply play 9...Qb4.

White has to play: 9.ooo! where the "closing" move 9...c4 is simply bad because 9.Bxc4 dxc4 10.d5
with a very strong advantage for White in the middlegame....and the transposition move 9..Be7 (Black can play Be7 at move 8) runs into 10.Na4!  Qb4 (10..Qa7 11.f5 exf5 12.Nc3 cxd4 13.Nxd4 +-)  11.Nxc5 Nxc5 (11....Qxd2+ 12.Nxd2! Nxc5 13.dxc5 d4 14.Bg1 Bc5 15.Nb3) 12.dxc5 Bxc5 13.Qxb4 Bxe3+ 14.Qd2 Bxd2+ 15.Rxd2 oo 16.g3! (a prophylactic move against f6) Bd7 17.Nd4 Nxd4 18.Rxd4 f6 19.exf6 Rxf6 +=

OK not so easy to win this ending but White has a safe little advantage


  

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Re: Steinitz options
Reply #12 - 05/17/10 at 09:59:23
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I don't see the point of the combination 7...a6 and 8...Qb6. So both 9.Rb1 and 9.0-0-0 give White some advantage. After both moves White probably will play for the standard f4-f5. So I am not surprised that no author discusses it.
  

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Re: Steinitz options
Reply #11 - 05/17/10 at 04:04:00
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Does anyone has expirience with this sideline:
1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. f4 c5 6. Nf3 Nc6 7. Be3 a6 8. Qd2 Qb6

I couldn't find any author that discuss this 8...Qb6 move in various books and engines give only slight advantage for white if not equal evaluation. In database there are some games where white responds with 0-0-0 or Rb1 or Na4.
  
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Re: Steinitz options
Reply #10 - 04/11/10 at 05:45:31
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dom wrote on 03/01/10 at 18:44:07:
Na4 is the point in Boleslavsky system (with f4,Be3): Black looses control on important main dark squares, d4 pawn square is most important because it's blockading square.

If White can keep control/occupation with piece of this square, it often gives positional advantage.

A) 6...Nc6 7.Be3!? (Boleslavsky main line)

7...Qb6 (Portisch,Amsterdam 1964 (Tiemann)) 8.Na4! (main plan) Qa5+ 9.c3 cxd4 (9...b6!? Khalifman ; 9...c4 Chandler-Vaganian,Leningrad 1987) 10.b4!  (10.Nxd4 ?! 11.b4 Bb4! 12.cxb4 Qxb4+ 13.Bd2 Qe7 =+)

and now here is sacrifice lin with 10...Nxb4. If Black doesn't sacrifice and play "slow" move then White wins his positional advantage: 10...Qc7 11.Nxd4 Nxd4 (11...Be7 12.Bd3 Nxd4 13.Bxd4 +=  White has excellent control for both wings) 12.Bxd4 Nb8 (a standard move sequence to fight against the d4 blockade) 13.a3 Nc6 14.Be3 g5 (14...Be7 15.Bd3 += Suetin-Liberzon,1960 (Tiemman)) 15.Qh5 = or += Semyonov-Murey,URSS 1966 (Suetin)

And the sacrifice is usually given in White favor because of these lines: 11.cxb4 Bxb4+ 12.Bd2 Bxd2 13.Nxd2 b6 (13..g5!? Ivanchuk 14.Rb1! gxf4 15.Bb5 and now Black has only bad moves ; 13...oo 14.Bd3 b5 15.Nb2 Nb6 16.oo! Nc4 17.Nbxc4 bxc4 18.Bxh7+ Kxh7 19.Qh5+ Kg8 20.Nf3 g6 21.Qh6 Qc7 22.Nh4! and now believe it or not, but this line is winning for White)  with 14.Bd3 or 14.Qb3 to follow.

I don't agree too much with this analysis and believe Black can survive and play this  sacrifice line



I don't see how 22.Nh4 is winning for white. I could find ways to bust things such as 22..Re8 or 22..f5. But I couldn't find an obvious win for white against 22..f6 even with the help of a computer.
  
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Re: Steinitz options
Reply #9 - 03/01/10 at 18:44:07
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Seth_Xoma wrote on 03/01/10 at 05:31:28:
If this is not the right place for the post, then my apologies.


No,no...you are right, here is good thread to talk about these lines.

Na4 is the point in Boleslavsky system (with f4,Be3): Black looses control on important main dark squares, d4 pawn square is most important because it's blockading square.

If White can keep control/occupation with piece of this square, it often gives positional advantage.

A) 6...Nc6 7.Be3!? (Boleslavsky main line)

7...Qb6 (Portisch,Amsterdam 1964 (Tiemann)) 8.Na4! (main plan) Qa5+ 9.c3 cxd4 (9...b6!? Khalifman ; 9...c4 Chandler-Vaganian,Leningrad 1987) 10.b4!  (10.Nxd4 ?! 11.b4 Bb4! 12.cxb4 Qxb4+ 13.Bd2 Qe7 =+)

and now here is sacrifice lin with 10...Nxb4. If Black doesn't sacrifice and play "slow" move then White wins his positional advantage: 10...Qc7 11.Nxd4 Nxd4 (11...Be7 12.Bd3 Nxd4 13.Bxd4 +=  White has excellent control for both wings) 12.Bxd4 Nb8 (a standard move sequence to fight against the d4 blockade) 13.a3 Nc6 14.Be3 g5 (14...Be7 15.Bd3 += Suetin-Liberzon,1960 (Tiemman)) 15.Qh5 = or += Semyonov-Murey,URSS 1966 (Suetin)

And the sacrifice is usually given in White favor because of these lines: 11.cxb4 Bxb4+ 12.Bd2 Bxd2 13.Nxd2 b6 (13..g5!? Ivanchuk 14.Rb1! gxf4 15.Bb5 and now Black has only bad moves ; 13...oo 14.Bd3 b5 15.Nb2 Nb6 16.oo! Nc4 17.Nbxc4 bxc4 18.Bxh7+ Kxh7 19.Qh5+ Kg8 20.Nf3 g6 21.Qh6 Qc7 22.Nh4! and now believe it or not, but this line is winning for White)  with 14.Bd3 or 14.Qb3 to follow.

I don't agree too much with this analysis and believe Black can survive and play this  sacrifice line

B) 6...a6 7.Be3 Qb6 (7...Nc6 is playable line, but Black has not succeeded in control over d4 square 8.Qd2! Qb6 9.ooo or 8...b5 9.dxc5) 8.Na4 (8.a3!? Apicella ; 8.Rb1) Qc6 (Kosten) or 8...Qa5+ 9.c3 Qc7 Luther-Piskov,Erfurt 1993 (Tiemann). I think Bllack can reach good middlegames in these lines. Maybe 8.a3!? is most interesting...maybe because Kasparov played it vs Radjabov  Cool

C) 6...Qb6 Korchnoi's idea played in Beliavsky-Kortchnoi,Tilburg 1993 7.Be3 (7.Na4 Qc6! ; 7.a3 can transposes to other main lines Miladinovic-Marjanovic,Serbie 2005) Be7 (7...Qxb2!? and maybe a draw for Black) 8.Na4 Qa5+ 9.c3 b6 (9...cxd4 10.Nxd4 a6 11.f5) 10.Kf2 Ba6 11.b4 cxb4 12.cxb4 Bxb4 13.a3 Bxa3 14.Rxa3 (14.Bd2 Shaposhnikov-Volkov,Izhebvsk 2009) +=


D) 6...cxd4 7.Nxd4 Qb6?! 8.Be3 Nc6 (8...Qxb2? 9.Ndb5 Qb4 10.Nc7 Kd8 11.Bd2!! Kruppa-Berrev,URSS 1988 (Psakhis)) 9.Qd2! (9.Na4?! Short vs Korchnoi, 1987 9...Qa5+ 10.c3 Nxd4 11.b4 Bxb4!) Qxb2! 10.Rb1 Qa3 11.Ndb5 Qa5 12.Nxd5 Qxd2+ 13.Kxd2 +=/=.  In this line Watson gives 7...Bb4!?

E) 6...Be7 7.Be3 Qb6 8.Na4 Qa5+ 9.c3 cxd4 10.Nxd4 Nc6 11.b4 Qc7 12.Bd3 Nxd4 13.Bxd4 a5 14.a3 Bh4+ (Dom)




  

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Re: Steinitz options
Reply #8 - 03/01/10 at 07:32:27
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Seth_Xoma wrote on 03/01/10 at 05:31:28:
If this is not the right place for the post, then my apologies.

I have noticed that there is just one game on the 7...Qb6 line in the ChessPub database, and there is no mention of the piece sac line (7...Qb6 8.Na4 Qa5+ 9.b4 Nxb4 10.cxb4 Bxb4+ 11.Bd2 Bxd2+ 12.Nxd2). Maybe IM Watson could give a game or two on this line?  Smiley It is quite popular in online blitz. Anyone have any comments on this variation?


I seem to recall it being a hot topic in the 1980s, but it's my impression that it has been considered unfavorable for Black for quite a while.  That view was reflected in the MCO which came out a couple of years ago, for instance.
  
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Re: Steinitz options
Reply #7 - 03/01/10 at 05:31:28
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If this is not the right place for the post, then my apologies.

I have noticed that there is just one game on the 7...Qb6 line in the ChessPub database, and there is no mention of the piece sac line (7...Qb6 8.Na4 Qa5+ 9.b4 Nxb4 10.cxb4 Bxb4+ 11.Bd2 Bxd2+ 12.Nxd2). Maybe IM Watson could give a game or two on this line?  Smiley It is quite popular in online blitz. Anyone have any comments on this variation?
  
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Re: Steinitz options
Reply #6 - 02/14/10 at 18:46:10
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I would have thought that that is just going into a type of position which is clearly better for White, after 11. b4.
  
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Re: Steinitz options
Reply #5 - 02/14/10 at 18:34:34
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I put again this thread on light (I can choose others, dealing with Classical Boleslavsky or "French at some place" kind)...

Did you notice Volkov has special way to handle Boleslavsky variation as Black ?

After the common initial moves: 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Be7 7.Be3 ...he plays 7...Qb6!? rejecting the others lines 7...b6 Shirov-Morozevich,rapid Monte Carlo 2004 , 7...Nc6 Ivanchuk-Morozevich,Memorial Donner 1996 (Pavloc,EE 1997, McDonald update April 2007)  and 7...a6  ?

He seems to play this move since 6 months ago (with not so much success), last time was at current tournament Moscow Aeroflot 2010.
For this game, Kosintseva-Volkov,Aeroflot Moscou 2010, I don't understand too much why he plays 8.Na4 Qa5+ 9.c3 c4 and he has maybe a sounder move with 9...cxd4!?  with the idea 10.Nxd4 Nc6 (10..a6 11.f5)
  

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Re: Steinitz options
Reply #4 - 09/28/09 at 17:02:15
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Thanks dom  Smiley

I think that is a helpful start. Grin
  
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