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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Caro-Kann exchange variation (Read 45123 times)
MNb
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #22 - 10/05/09 at 10:06:16
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To be more precise, I think White gives up all hope for a concrete advantage after 4.Bd3. That's what it makes second-rate. It still can be fun for an amateur like me, I have played it for several years.
I don't try to change subject - I am trying to abandon it. I have a timetable for school to make. But you are the nice kind of guy that always deserves a serious answer ...
Neither is my main complaint that COWE is not like Khalifman's series. That is impossible. But I would have expected that it presents optimal play by Black - and then I don't mind if the overall conclusion is = - plus enough sample lines to present all ideas. You will have to admit imo that White's attacking play after 18...Qa6 is quite different from 18...Re8 and possibly also after 18...Qd8. In short, the book should have given three sample lines to show "the power of White's attack" as they put it.
  

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Keano
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #21 - 10/05/09 at 09:49:33
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MNb wrote on 10/04/09 at 21:59:03:
I am sorry, but now I don't exactly understand what you expect from me. You won't let me off the hook that easy, but you try to forbid me to insist my criticism (not Watson's) of the book?
I admire your efforts to pursuit White's attack after 18...Re8 - maybe you should write an addendum to COWE? After a closer look (I could not resist) I must admit that 21...Nd7 is incorrect. 21...Ne4 22.Rfh1 f6 23.Qc2 (I had overlooked that one) also looks interesting.
Anyhow, for the last time I will state that ADP should have mentioned this. White's play is not trivial at all. ADP should be grateful that you do their work. As I already said, I am too busy to analyse deeply. I have made my point often enough; you have posts of Tracke and TN to address as well.


MnB in the original thread about COWE you gave this ...Qc8 line as an example of why the Caro-KAnn exchange was a "second-rate" opening and said that it only leads to "equality for White at best" - at least I think it was you  Huh it might have been TN in which case I apologise. I´ve already pointed out that COWE does not cover all possible defensive moves like the Anand series, on the other hand the repertoire is more economical, but it does require independent research to plug some holes, for me thats part of the fun - if you grasp the essence of the positions and like the idea, then thats half the battle. Just glance at some of the ideas in this thread and the game GM Lie played and I dont think you can fail to be impressed by the beauty of it.

I´m a bit confused about your stance in this also, do you believe that COWE recommends "second-rate" openings in which White is fighting for equality? If we can establish that this is not so then your main grievance is that COWE does not present a full tree of the possible defensive moves - in which case I completely agree with you here!

I have already adressed TN and Tracke and am waiting for replies so dont try switching the subject...we´ll eventually get to the bottom of those grievances but for what its worth I dont think Tracke believes this line is completely innocuous, whereas TN as usual leaves me slightly baffled as to what book he is consulting that would say the Fischer-Petrosian line is OK for Black!
  
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MNb
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #20 - 10/05/09 at 02:26:17
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One last remark - I just rediscovered that I have made a note on this line a long time ago after I had read that internet-review I can't refind. Iso 18...Qa6 and 18...Re8 there is also 18...Qd8. After 19.h5 Nxh5 both the ADP-idea 20.Qg4 Bf6 21.Bxf6 (because of Qxf6) and the Keano-idea 20.g4 Nf6 (perhaps even bxc3!?) 21.Kg2 Ne4 (or Nd7 22.Rfh1 f6!?) 22.Rfh1 f6 23.Qc2 (because of fxe5 24.Nxe4 dxe4 25.Qxe4 Qd5) fail. In the last line there is another funny idea: 22.Nxe4 dxe4 23.Bf6!? gxf6 (Bxf6 24.Rfh1 Bh4 25.Rxh4 f6 is also an option) 24.Rfh1 f5 25.Rh8+ Kg7 26.R1h7+ Kf6 27.g5+ Kxg5 28.Qh1 f4 and one would say that White's attack is decisive, but Rybka only gives a perpetual. I haven't looked closer at it.
  

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MNb
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #19 - 10/04/09 at 21:59:03
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Keano wrote on 10/04/09 at 08:41:54:
No I'll not let you off the hook that easy - the ...Re8 position is critical to the integrity of COWE so for that reason I suggested continuing with the analysis, which I will. We know the book doesnt cover all defences, my point is the ideas and other redeeming points more than make up for it. If you dont agree fine, but dont try and insist on upholding Watsons view of the book in every post, or if so be prepared to back it up.

I am sorry, but now I don't exactly understand what you expect from me. You won't let me off the hook that easy, but you try to forbid me to insist my criticism (not Watson's) of the book?
I admire your efforts to pursuit White's attack after 18...Re8 - maybe you should write an addendum to COWE? After a closer look (I could not resist) I must admit that 21...Nd7 is incorrect. 21...Ne4 22.Rfh1 f6 23.Qc2 (I had overlooked that one) also looks interesting.
Anyhow, for the last time I will state that ADP should have mentioned this. White's play is not trivial at all. ADP should be grateful that you do their work. As I already said, I am too busy to analyse deeply. I have made my point often enough; you have posts of Tracke and TN to address as well.
  

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Keano
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #18 - 10/04/09 at 12:02:51
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tracke wrote on 10/04/09 at 10:26:35:
I generally don´t like to give my extensive analysis here for free so I won´t contribute to the concrete analysis of 7…Qc8 : imo Black can hold with accurate defence. But there are many more obvious crimes in the Caro-Kann coverage of COWE :


OK Tracke, I think your right in that assesment "hold with accurate defence" - this seems closer to the truth than White searching for equality(!)

The other lines you give I´ll look at after we have fully resolved this ...Re8 position, which seems to be a problem position for at least a few posters. The g4 idea against ....g6 lines obviously only works against that move order as you say - its a decent trap if Black doesnt know about it, but otherwise in general I think these ...g6 systems are well worth investigating for Black - I noticed Arkell has switched to this these days also.

By the way, you realise that "the shocking 11.Bg3" as you call it has been played by Smirin and also none other than good old Nigel Short who won a game against Ehlvest with this - cant be that much of a shocker  Wink In the chessbase annotations Volzhin describes this as a "humble move which is interesting and causes serious problems for Black"

By the way, the more I look at this line the more I am starting to like it for White. If I decide to include it in my repertoire I may have to start witholding a bit of analysis myself!
  
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #17 - 10/04/09 at 11:45:29
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I dont know what book you have TN but that stuff with ...Na5 is known to be good for White since Fischer-Petrosian. 5...Qc7 is known to be respectable enough although its not so popular, we can discuss that line in a separate thread if you like.
  
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #16 - 10/04/09 at 11:29:38
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Whilst on the subject of holes in COWE's coverage, here's a couple more:

a) 5...Nf6 6.Bf4 Bg4 7.Qb3 Na5 8.Qa4 Nc6 (! according to Nikitin; in my opinion 8...Bd7 is equally strong) 9.Nd2 (White can repeat the position with 9.Qb3, but in terms of the opening, this would be an admission of failure for White) 9...e6 10.Ngf3 Bd6 11.Ne5 0-0 12.Bg3 Qc7! 13.Ng4 (13.f4 Bf5!? 14.Bf5 ef5 15.0-0 Nh5 16.Qb5 Ne7 17.Rf3 a6 18.Qb3 Rfe8 19.Re1 Nf6 20.Rff1 Ne4 21.Ne4 fe4 22.Ng4 b5 23.Ne3 Qc6 24.Bh4 f6 equal) 13...Ng4 14.Qd1 Nf6 15.0-0 Bg3 16.hg3 e5 17.de5 Ne5 with counterplay, K.Muller-Agdestein, Germany Bundesliga 1998/99. This line should have been at least mentioned, but surprisingly this important move is not even considered. As other posters and myself have shown, it is a common tendency for ADP to ignore Black's most important options. See the posts in this thread and the other thread for the details.

b) 5...Nf6 6.Bf4 Bg4 7.Qb3 Na5 8.Qa4 Bd7 9.Qc2 Rc8 is also not mentioned, but seems to equalise quite simply as in Enklaar-Donner, Netherlands Championship 1974, where in spite of Black's eventual defeat, White had absolutely no advantage after 13...Nd7!. At least ADP offer an improvement over the game Maroczy-Capablanca, Lake Hopatcong 1926, although 10...Rc8 with the idea of playing a later ...Nc4-d6 to reroute the knight to the centre looks like an improvement over ADP's rather compliant 10...Nb3.

c) 7...Qb6 is also not mentioned, although to be honest I don't have much faith in this line for Black after 8.Qb6 ab6 9.Na3 when White seems very comfortable in this ending.

d) 7...Qc8 8.Nd2 Bh5 (this bears similarities to tracke's idea of 5...Qc7 6.Ne2 Bg4 7.f3 Bh5 idea) is another relatively rare yet important sideline, where White has difficulties proving an advantage, e.g. 9.Ngf3 Bg6 10.Bb5 a6 11.Be2 e6 12.0-0 Be7 with equal chances according to Nikitin. I can understand ADP not including 10...Bh5 since White keeps a very small edge there, but this move should have been included to ensure that the repertoire was thorough.

e) Expanding on tracke's line B, after 10.Be3 Qd6! Nikitin provides the following analysis to prove that Black equalises: 11.Qb3 Bf5 12.Be2 Nf6 13.Bg5 h6 14.Bh4 Nh5 15.Rfe1 g5 16.Bg3 Ng3 17.hg3 a6 18.Nf1 e6 19.Ne3 Bg6 with equality.

Quote:
No I'll not let you off the hook that easy - the ...Re8 position is critical to the integrity of COWE so for that reason I suggested continuing with the analysis, which I will. We know the book doesnt cover all defences, my point is the ideas and other redeeming points more than make up for it. If you dont agree fine, but dont try and insist on upholding Watsons view of the book in every post, or if so be prepared to back it up. Its a far more interesting book than the usual "Play this" "Play that" database dumps produced these days which are basically a list of games copied from chessbase with an IM author throwing in a few wise-cracks.


The ...Re8 position is not as critical to the integrity of COWE as this 5...Qc7 line, as Nikitin's analysis shows. If you can find some improvements for White in the line occurring in Dzindzichashvili-Karpov, it will influence the theory of the line but not change the overall evaluation of the variation as being equal.

I don't believe the ideas compensate at all for not covering the best moves from Black's perspective. We may have to agree to disagree on that point. And I have already shown in previous posts that my opinion is not always the same as Watson's - to mention another example, I disagree with him on Aagaard's 'Attacking Manual'.

Quote:
Its a far more interesting book than the usual "Play this" "Play that" database dumps produced these days which are basically a list of games copied from chessbase with an IM author throwing in a few wise-cracks.


I don't know of any recent books (from 2008-now) by Everyman, Gambit, Quality Chess or Chess Stars which are 'database dumps'; can you give some examples of books from one of the 4 book publishing companies listed to substantiate your claims? For what it's worth, all but a very small number of the repertoire books I own combine explanations, games and analysis very lucidly.

PS: There are also a number of flaws in the coverage of the Grand Prix, primarily claiming a slight advantage in equal positions - if you want to discuss this then feel free to start a thread in the Anti-Sicilians section.

  

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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #15 - 10/04/09 at 10:52:08
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The most important hole in ADP's book is their lack of coverage of 5...Qc7. In a chapter comprising 26 pages, DPA spend a mere page on what is, according to Kasparov's former coach Nikitin, 'the most promising move for Black'. They also fail to even mention 5...e5!?, which should equalise without much difficulty, as in Prandsetter-Plachetka, Naleczow 1979.

However, this is not the main 'problem' with this chapter of the book. The main problem is that their recommendation against 5...Qc7 fails to even equalise. They give 6.Ne2 (6.Bg5!? is a better try in my opinion although there is nothing wrong with 6.Ne2) Bg4 7.f3 (7.Qb3 Nf6 8.Bf4 Qd7 9.Ng3 g6 10.h3 Be6 equal, Nikitin) 7...Bd7 8.Bf4 e5! (8...Qc8 should also equalise, see the Nikitin survey) 9.de5 Ne5 10.Bc2?! (ADP's recommendation, but in fact White should prefer 10.0-0 Bd6 11.Na3! Ne7 12.Nb5 Bb5 13.Bb5 N5c6 14.Bd6 Qd6 with equality) 10...Bd6 11.Ba4 Bc6 12.0-0 Ne7 13.Nd4 and here ADP state 'White has a powerful outpost on d4 and stands slightly better'. The authors could not be further from the truth - in fact Black is the one who is better after 13...0-0 14.Bc2 N7g6 15.Bg6 hg6 16.Nd2 Rae8 =+, as pointed out by Nikitin.

I could go into details about how this influences the book, but I doubt this would influence Keano's opinion. So I will let the evidence speak for itself.

Edit: tracke said more or less the same thing, as I noticed only after posting.
  

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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #14 - 10/04/09 at 10:26:35
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(PS: I wrote this post before I saw Bibs reply #9 , which goes in the same direction as my point B )

I generally don´t like to give my extensive analysis here for free so I won´t contribute to the concrete analysis of 7…Qc8 : imo Black can hold with accurate defence. But there are many more obvious crimes in the Caro-Kann coverage of COWE :

A) Regarding 5…Nf6 6.Bf4 g6 (p.406) COWE starts analysis in already favourable position: after 7.Nd2 Bg7 8.Ngf3 0-0 9.h3 Bf5 10.Bxf5 gxf5 (no derivations given in this move sequence!) 11.g4! white indeed has a strong attack. But why the unknown, incredible weak and “inviting” 9…Bf5? and not the wellknown and unclear 9…Nh5! what has been played many times by strong players with excellent results. Even 8…Bg4!?, 8…Bf5?! or 7…Bf5?! would have been better than the black “defence” covered in COWE.

B) Regarding 5…Nf6 6.Bf4 Bg4 7.Qb3 Qd7 8.Nd2 e6 9.Ngf3 Bxf3 10.Nxf3 Bd6 COWE reveals (p.400) the shocking 11.Bg3 (! COWE, instead of the usual and equal 11.Bxd6) and after 11…0-0 12.0-0 Bxg3 13.hxg3 Rab8 14.Rae1 a6 white´s attack works quite well after 15.Qd1 b5 16.g4 (again no discussion of alternatives for black!). Now, in COWE , you can see lots of diagrams with black´s Qd7 staying there forever and black´s Nf6 wandering via e8 to c7 (where it can´t contribute to its king´s defence!). I have to ask if there are no better defence setups for black? Obviously black misses (among other things like an early prophylactic Rfe8 or the slightly more active Ne8-d6) many opportunities to find a more natural place for his queen with 14…Qc7, 13…Qc7, 12…Qc7 or the flexible 11…Qc7 (my personal favourite, but you should work out the best timing on your own). First, Qc7 puts some pressure on e5 and along the c-file. Second, if future sees white playing d4xe5 and f2-f4 then Qc7 has some checks. Third, with Qc7 covering f4 it becomes more difficult for white to send his Qb3 to the kingside. Fourth and really important, Nf6 can go to d7 where it repells a white Re5, attacks a white Pe5 or simply retreats further to f8 (defending e6+g6+h7 and enabling f7-f6). Fifth, most probably Qd7-c7 doesn´t lose time (!) as black should be able to play b7-b5 (after Tab8) without preparing with a7-a6: White cannot afford to grab that pawn and go into the pin Rb8-Bb5-Qb3 as Bb5xNc6 doesn´t attack Qd7. Btw, in this subvariation …Qc7 has already been played by people like Khalifman or Arkell .

C) Regarding 5…Qc7 6.Ne2 Bg4 7.f3 Bd7 8.Bf4 e5 9.dxe5 Nxe5 COWE recommends (p.410) 10.Bc2 Bd6 11.Ba4 Bc6 12.0-0 Ne7 13.Nd4 (Yudasin-Kacheishvili, 2004) as “slightly better” for White. That´s funny because Houska, Rybka, Fritz, Hiarcs and I simply prefer the black position! Besides, the never-refuted and interesting 7…Bh5!? (what works quite well for black in practice) isn´t mentioned at all in COWE !

* * *

One could go on and on but for me it´s enough to see that analysis in COWE is often based on black´s cooperation, on neglecting wellknown moves or just on strange assessments of positions. Not only against the Caro-Kann but throughout the book! Certainly there are some interesting ideas and some may even be sound. But I cannot recommend to follow COWE to more than 10%. It has some (and probably more) value from black´s point of view: you see what might occur in many of your future internet blitz games and so you´re forced to do some seroius work on your defence to refute such silly attempts.

tracke  Smiley


@MNb: Btw, of course I know (and have read) all chess books ever published by Sportverlag Berlin! But also some nice chess books (in german language) from Ten Have, Amsterdam.
  
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #13 - 10/04/09 at 10:08:11
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OK lets try and get back to the chess in this supposedy quiet and tame line against the Caro.

As I mentioned earlier after 18...Re8 19.h5 Nxh5 (Kylemeister I´ll get around to posting about ...gxh5 later but basically I think after 20.Bxf6 Bxf6 21.Qxh5 g6 22.Qh6!? White is a bit better with good chances - this might yet turn out to be the main-line!?) 20.g4 Nf6 21.Kg2

(Now we already looked at 21...Nd7 22.Rfh1 f6 23.g5!! ) MnB gave a continuation 23...Nxe5 24.gxf6 Nd3 Here I give 25.Qf3! Ne1+ (to divert a rook) 26...Bxf6 27.Qd3!?

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White has a dangerous initiative for a pawn it seems he'll be getting back shortly anyhow - the maneovre Nd2-b3-c5 is relevant in some lines, or White can play Nf3xg5 in some lines if Black plays ...g5. We can do some more analysis here if you like but I'm pretty confident about my evaluation, it looks tricky for Black.

The move which really worried me earlier though was 21...Ne4 (as mentioned by MnB also):

Here I think I finally hit on the correct idea - not to take on e4. The continuation I propose is 22.Rfh1 f6 23.Qc2!

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*

This appears to be very promising since obviously 23...fxe5? 24.Nxe4 dxe4 25.Qxe4 is game over - the Queen and 2 rooks all participate in the attack.

The best defence appears to be 23...Qb7 and now 24.f3! fxe5 (24...Ng5?! 25.Qxg6 Nxh3 26.Rxh3 wins) 25.fxe4 bxc3 26.bxc3 Bf6 (26...exd4? 27.e5! and again the invasion on g6 wins) leads to a curious position:

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Here I propose 27.g5!? (that move again, but there may be other possibilities) 27...Bxg5 28.Nf3 Bh6 29.Rb1 (if 29.Nxe5 Rb8 intends ...Qb2) Qa6 30.Nxe5 :

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What is this position? Im not sure if he can do it or not but its clear to me Black is the one trying to equalize here against Whites initiative.

  
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #12 - 10/04/09 at 08:41:54
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MNb wrote on 10/03/09 at 20:35:40:
Frankly if you don't feel like discussing the integrity of COWE here - nothing wrong with that - I don't see much point in analysing 18...Re8 any further. I don't play this line with either colour. You seem busy and I am for sure.

No I'll not let you off the hook that easy - the ...Re8 position is critical to the integrity of COWE so for that reason I suggested continuing with the analysis, which I will. We know the book doesnt cover all defences, my point is the ideas and other redeeming points more than make up for it. If you dont agree fine, but dont try and insist on upholding Watsons view of the book in every post, or if so be prepared to back it up. Its a far more interesting book than the usual "Play this" "Play that" database dumps produced these days which are basically a list of games copied from chessbase with an IM author throwing in a few wise-cracks.

MNb wrote on 10/03/09 at 20:35:40:
As I have implicated before, even if White can prove equality, I think every opening book worth its money should have mentioned 18...Re8 - exactly because ADP's idea does not work here.

Hmmm... "even if White can prove equality" It seems to me you've already given up - it is Blacks role to equalize here, not Whites. If Black takes a "time-out" for ...Re8 we have to try and take advantage of that slower defensive move.
  
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #11 - 10/03/09 at 20:35:40
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Keano wrote on 10/03/09 at 10:18:23:
MnB - your main point was that the authors systematically evaluate equal positions as better for White wasn't it? And this was one of the variations you gave as an example.

No, my main point is that the authors systemetically don't do any effort to find Black's best defense in their analysis. As a result they evaluate many lines as better for White without proper justification.
You call COWE an ideas book. Great idea if it does not work because Black has a good defense available. Great ideas book if the gaps are so big and on such important places - in COWE's main lines - that the reader has to develop his own ideas like we seem to do in this thread - note that I have presented a few above.
Frankly if you don't feel like discussing the integrity of COWE here - nothing wrong with that - I don't see much point in analysing 18...Re8 any further. I don't play this line with either colour. You seem busy and I am for sure.
As I have implicated before, even if White can prove equality, I think every opening book worth its money should have mentioned 18...Re8 - exactly because ADP's idea does not work here. Perhaps that proves that I am not in for innovations a la ADP. It seems though that I am not the only one. Maybe it's old-fashioned to call this kind of innovation a lack of integrity. After all Charles Babbage wrote his Reflections on the Decline of Science in England already in 1830, with similar complaints.
  

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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #10 - 10/03/09 at 15:11:03
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Bibs wrote on 10/03/09 at 13:50:02:


That looks like White "disimproving" on one of the old games I recall in this line:  Benjamin-Christiansen, US championship 1981.
  
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #9 - 10/03/09 at 13:50:02
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #8 - 10/03/09 at 10:18:23
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MnB - your main point was that the authors systematically evaluate equal positions as better for White wasn't it? And this was one of the variations you gave as an example. I am defending the Fench position and now this one, seeing as Im not on a commision from Dzindzi for all this I cant go through the whole book  Anyway for now lets stick to the chess analysis which is getting interesting, and later we can go back and argue about the book if you like - like I said before its an ideas book, independent research is required to fill some gaps, if peop'le dont like that then they shouldnt buy it but in my view they'd be missing out. For example you found ...Re8, the book didnt give it - if it was the Anand series they would have given every defensive move, but this is not that type of book - would be great if they had gone that way, but with the format of diagrams the book would have been like a telephone directory. Its an innovative book in a new format - I like that you can read it without a chess set and later do some serious analysis if you found something interesting. I like most that its full of interesting ideas, the Dzindzi hyperbole and marketing I found amusing and funny, I see Watson took it differently.

Back to the chess - I dont think I'll have time to post today, hopefully tommorrow, but I can tell you the Kylmeister line ....gxh5 I evaluated as slightly better for White and have some analysis, the line you gave with ...Nd3 I evaluated as better for White also. The only move that really worried me, and which I'll have to look at seriously, is the ...Ne4 possibility you mentioned. Anyway lets not be saying this move is better than another until we can be more sure.
  
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