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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Caro-Kann exchange variation (Read 44448 times)
Keano
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #37 - 11/10/09 at 15:59:30
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Going back to this topic, I noticed there was an interesting move-order in the exchange line which was used by Ivanchuk and several other strong players recently, the more I look at this supposedly harmless variation the more I think it is a very good practical weapon:

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.Bd3 Nc6 5.c3 Nf6 (after 5...Qc7!? White can also play the same plan)
6.h3!?
This more or less stymies all possibilities for Black to activate the Queens Bishop which leaves him 2 ideas: play for an early ...e5 and IQP position, which looks like an edge for White, or (what usually happens) Black transposes back into the ...g6 system, where the early h3 is not a bad move for White. Its an interesting side-line.
  
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tracke
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #36 - 10/29/09 at 11:42:05
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I dont know if this is really a simple question. Maybe 4...Bg4?! (my punctation) is the best move, maybe not. I dont really know after several years of investigation. Certainly the exchange system is nothing too threatening for Black but he should treat it carefully. 4Nf3 or 4Bd3 or 4c3 are not without some (but only some) venom. R.Emanuel (remember the alchemy attack ?!) had some nice ideas on his website for white in CKexchange which were not easy to refute.

Especially Black should avoid 4Nf3 Bg4 5c3 Nc6(?) [respectively 4c3 Nc6 5Nf3 Bg4(?)] 6Qb3! what seems to be a clear += !

For myself I have decided to answer all those three moves with 4...Nc6 what is imo the most natural and safe response what doesnt decide on Ng8: maybe that knight might want to go to e7/h6 instead of f6, maybe ...f6 might be necessary (or simply good! compare QGE). After 4Nf3 Nc6 5c3 Black should imo play 5...a6! what is a very useful (waiting) move, White then cannot prevent both ...Bg4 and ...Bf5 . Of course, after 4Nf3 Nc6 5c4 Black has to know the ...Nc6 lines in Panov-Botwinnik attack which are equal/unclear but very theoretical.

tracke Smiley
« Last Edit: 10/29/09 at 18:37:39 by tracke »  
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HoemberChess
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What is the best move on 4.Nf3? Is it 4..Bg4?
Reply #35 - 10/28/09 at 19:57:38
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A simple C-K Exchange question.
What is the best move on 4.Nf3? Is it 4..Bg4?


Houska's book doesn't discuss 4.Nf3.
Interestingly enough, Wells in his book GM Secrets - the C-K gives 4..Bg4 a "!", while Fritz11 book a "?".
Carlsen has played 4.Nf3 several times and even players like Dreev and Karpov have answered it with 4..Nc6/..Nf6.
Why?

As Black, I don't play the ..Nc6 + ..Bg4 variation in the Panov. (I prefer ..e6 + ..Be7/..Bb4)
After 4..Bg4, would 5.c4 be a good attempt of transposition for White?
  

as
*W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc)
*B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6| 1Nf3:c5
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #34 - 10/14/09 at 04:14:38
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Anybody find it more than a coincidence that the French forum thread is discussing the French Exchange for White!?
  
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #33 - 10/12/09 at 11:15:16
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A nice game, thank you for posting it.
  
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #32 - 10/11/09 at 18:49:18
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an inspirational game played today,

http://jugadordecafe.blogspot.com/2009/10/una-partida-de-cafe.html

it doesn't mind what theory says, I think that the exchange C-K is a good practical weapon.
  

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Keano
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #31 - 10/05/09 at 12:39:02
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Interesting, although after 13...Bxg3 I wouldnt be so quick to be trying to castle q-side - why not put the king on f1 like Short did in the game? Seems safe enough there.
  
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TN
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #30 - 10/05/09 at 12:18:14
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I found Short's annotations to his game against Ehlvest in the Informant, and he gives the following:

11...0-0 12.Qc2! (I agree that this offers better chances for an edge than the autopilot 12.0-0) 12...Rac8 13.Qe2 (+=) with the idea of 13...a6 14.Ne5.

I suggest the improvement 13...Bg3 (this makes more sense than before since White has spent a couple of tempi repositioning his queen) 14.hg3 h6 15.Bc2 (to avoid 15.0-0-0 Nb4) 15...Qc7 16.0-0-0 Na5 and with ...Nc4 coming, Black has good counterplay and should not be worse in this sharp position. I haven't subjected this to close analysis though, perhaps White can improve with a quick g4-g5 lever.
  

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Keano
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #29 - 10/05/09 at 11:56:51
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Volzhin indeed prefers 11...0-0 for Black (he gives 11...Bxg3 as "?!" )

I hope I can say this much without getting into trouble - the line he gives against 11...0-0 is not the straightforward 12.0-0 and his evaluation ends in a "small but steady advantage for White". I know 12.0-0 is Dzindzis move and hope to look at your line, but the Volzhin suggestion looks interesting as well delaying 0-0.

Im sure Short has annotated this game in Informator also, be interesting if he gave any comments about the opening part of the game and what he intended.
  
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TN
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #28 - 10/05/09 at 11:47:15
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I am happy to agree to a truce. Smiley

I don't have access to the ChessPublishing analysis since I am not a subscriber. Short-Ehlvest indeed seems slightly better for White, but I don't think 11.Bg3 suffices for an advantage due to the following game:

[Event "NED-chT 0708"]
[Site "Netherlands"]
[Date "2007.11.03"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Bitalzadeh, Ali"]
[Black "Peelen, Piet"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B13"]
[WhiteElo "2362"]
[BlackElo "2329"]
[PlyCount "100"]
[EventDate "2007.09.15"]
[EventType "team"]
[EventRounds "9"]
[EventCountry "NED"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2007.11.25"]

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. exd5 cxd5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Bd3 Nf6 6. Bf4 Bg4 7. Qb3 Qd7 8.
Nd2 e6 9. Ngf3 Bxf3 10. Nxf3 Bd6 11. Bg3 O-O 12. O-O Bxg3 13. hxg3 Qc7 14. Rae1
Rab8 15. Qd1 b5 16. g4 b4! {(incidentally Rybka's recommendation as well)}
17. g5 (17. Qc2 bxc3 18. bxc3 h6 19. g5 hxg5 20. Nxg5 {is the alternative,
which seems about equal since White's kingside attack is very slow and Black
has good counterplay against the c3-pawn.} Qf4 (20... Rfc8)) 17... Nh5 (17...
Ng4 {is Rybka's preference. Play could continue} 18. c4 dxc4 19. Bxc4 Ne7 20.
Rxe6 Ng6 21. Qb3 fxe6 22. Bxe6+ Kh8 23. Bxg4 a5 {with a complicated position
where White has at most a tiny edge.}) 18. Ne5 ({Instead} 18. c4 dxc4 19. Bxc4
Nf4 {is equal.}) 18... Nf4 19. Qg4!? (19. Qf3 Nxd3 20. Nxd3 Qa5 {gives Black
strong counterplay but should still be about equal.}) 19... Nxd3 20. Nxd3 bxc3
21. bxc3 Ne7 (21... Qa5!?) 22. Re3 Nf5 23. Rh3 Qxc3 24. Qh5 h6 25. gxh6 g6 (
25... Qxd4 26. hxg7 Qxg7 {may have been better albeit rather risky.}) 26. Qg5
Kh7 27. g4 Nxd4 28. Qe5 Nb5 29. Qg5 Qd4 30. Ne5 Nd6 31. Nd7 f6 32. Qe3 Qxg4+
33. Rg3 d4 34. Qa3 Qf4 35. Qxa7 Rf7 36. Qxb8 Rxd7 37. Qb3 Qe5 38. Qa4 Rc7 39.
Qb4 Nf5 40. Re1 Qd5 41. Rh3 Nh4 42. Rg3 Rb7 43. Qa3 e5 44. Rc1 e4 45. Qa8 Rd7
46. Qe8 g5 47. Rc8 Ng6 48. Rc5 Qxc5 49. Qxd7+ Kxh6 50. Qd8 Qe5 1/2-1/2

The advantage switched back and forth in this game, but the opening and early middlegame was equal.

This is the only game with 16...b4, so it is quite possible that Volzhin did not mention the improvement 16...b4 in his analyses. If this move is included in his analysis, I would be interested to know his opinion.
  

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Keano
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #27 - 10/05/09 at 11:06:06
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TN wrote on 10/05/09 at 10:47:05:
In that case, I recommend you do some analysis of tracke's and my suggestions. You will face these lines over the board, which means that the book disservices the reader by ignoring these important options.


Thank you TN, I am well warned. In fairness I think were going around in circles here so lets call a truce and Ill buy a round of beers for everybody. I dont even play this line...yet!
  
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Keano
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #26 - 10/05/09 at 11:02:53
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In this case Short did get an advantage out of the opening (TN take note!) - The Bg3 idea was praised in the Chessbase analysis by Volzhin who felt Black had very awkward problems to meet - Im not going to copy and paste his analysis here but anyone can do a search for the game.

Edit - Im mistaken and subscribers to chesspublishing are in luck! Its in fact old analysis from Chesspublishing by Volzhin, which still means I cant copy paste it:

http://www.chesspublishing.com/content/6/aug00.htm

His analysis of that game is rather detailed and good in my opinion.

  
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #25 - 10/05/09 at 10:51:40
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Keano wrote on 10/05/09 at 10:28:54:
There is a more serious issue here maybe as to the choice of repertoire, Id disagree with you that the Exchange Caro gives up hope of a concrete advantage. If it was good enough for Nigel Short to win against Ehlvest and if there are still masters and Grandmasters playing it then it cant be all that bad!?

That GMs play lines on occasion isnt really implying that a line has hopes for an advantage (though it does mean it is prolly not totally daft Wink). A GM doesnt need a disadvantage in the opening to be able to lose a game to Short.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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TN
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #24 - 10/05/09 at 10:47:05
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Once again you have failed to properly address my points (incidentally that is also why I chose to not reply to your comments in the French thread, 2 of which were intended to disparage me).

Quote:
at least I think it was you  Huh it might have been TN in which case I apologise.


You misread or misconstrued MNb's post. He said 'COWE gives a game Dzjindzji-Karpov, suggests an "improvement" that would have lead to a winning attack - but only if Black cooperates like the authors expect him to do. As a consequence they rate the position around move 15 as slightly better for White. In reality, if anyone has an edge, it's Black (minority attack).' This is a far cry from claiming the entire variation to be equal for White at best.

Quote:
COWE does not cover all possible defensive moves like the Anand series


No opening book can reasonably cover all possible moves in one book, but ignoring the most important defensive options in favour of less critical moves does not make a positive impression on me.

Quote:
the repertoire is more economical


In other words: You agree with me that several of the lines in the book are suboptimal (ie not the most critical choice for White). Then again, any repertoire book has to make some sort of compromise.

Quote:
if you grasp the essence of the positions and like the idea, then thats half the battle.


That's a fair point, but unfortunately it's not applicable to most of this book because in order to grasp the essence of the positions and ideas, one must know how to counter Black's most critical moves. In fact, giving variations that are only equal or even slightly worse and claiming a slight advantage would damage a player's understanding of the variation as they would overestimate their chances in several positions and resultantly select incorrect plans in similar situations.

Quote:
do you believe that COWE recommends "second-rate" openings in which White is fighting for equality?


No, that is not what MNb or myself stated at all. However, as my analysis and the analysis of others shows, if White follows the recommendations in the book, in several instances White will be left fighting for equality, worse still under the illusion that they are better. I have already indicated in the French thread and this thread how White can improve over ADP's recommendations to provide some (admittedly small) chances of an edge.

Quote:
If we can establish that this is not so then your main grievance is that COWE does not present a full tree of the possible defensive moves - in which case I completely agree with you here!


That strays from the main points. COWE does not cover Black's most important defensive moves and the ideas are often suboptimal. From what I gather from your posts, this is the main disagreement between us.

Quote:
whereas TN as usual leaves me slightly baffled as to what book he is consulting that would say the Fischer-Petrosian line is OK for Black!


I suggest you read my posts more carefully then. I never suggested that following Fischer-Petrosian is okay for Black, but instead showed that deviating from this game with 7...Na5 8.Qa4 Bd7 9.Qc2 Rc8 or 8...Nc6 provides Black with full equality. So far you have not questioned this with any analysis. For the record, I am referring to Nikitin's survey in Yearbook 79. Obviously there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with Nikitin's analysis, but to do you need to present some analysis of your own to show where and why you disagree.

Quote:
I have already adressed TN and Tracke and am waiting for replies so dont try switching the subject...


This is hypocritical as your attempt to address myself and tracke involved changing the subject:

Quote:
I dont know what book you have TN but that stuff with ...Na5 is known to be good for White since Fischer-Petrosian. 5...Qc7 is known to be respectable enough although its not so popular, we can discuss that line in a separate thread if you like.


This is a cop-out from analysing as you ignore the fact that Nikitin's analysis improves over the Fischer-Petrosian game, and you have not given any evidence that White has any edge whatsoever in this 5...Qc7 line. I've already given you a head start by presenting my recommendations for White over ADP's line.

Quote:
The other lines you give Ill look at after we have fully resolved this ...Re8 position, which seems to be a problem position for at least a few posters.


This is just one of several problems with ADP's coverage of the Caro-Kann Exchange. As I already stated, finding an advantage in this ...Re8 variation for White won't make the variation any better for White.

Quote:
By the way, you realise that "the shocking 11.Bg3" as you call it has been played by Smirin and also none other than good old Nigel Short who won a game against Ehlvest with this - cant be that much of a shocker   In the chessbase annotations Volzhin describes this as a "humble move which is interesting and causes serious problems for Black"


This is all well and good, but can you show me how White can achieve an advantage in this line? For example, if Short and Volzhin claimed that 1.e4 b6 was completely equal without giving any variations, would you believe this or analyse the variation yourself and draw your own conclusions?

Quote:
By the way, the more I look at this line the more I am starting to like it for White. If I decide to include it in my repertoire I may have to start witholding a bit of analysis myself!


In that case, I recommend you do some analysis of tracke's and my suggestions. You will face these lines over the board, which means that the book disservices the reader by ignoring these important options.



  

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Keano
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #23 - 10/05/09 at 10:28:54
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That is a weakness of the book without a doubt ,at least we can agree on something Wink I take the view that the ideas in the book are still interesting enough to make the book worthwhile, I would prefer to spend money on this kind of book than on the "Play the xxxxx" type of book which presents the material as a game collection - this kind of book is usually more prosaic and full of holes anyhow since the format allows it.

There is a more serious issue here maybe as to the choice of repertoire, Id disagree with you that the Exchange Caro gives up hope of a concrete advantage. If it was good enough for Nigel Short to win against Ehlvest and if there are still masters and Grandmasters playing it then it cant be all that bad!? The Nigle Short game with Bg3!? (as in COWE) is an example, and typical of some of Shorts other games in the Sicilian - it all seems deceptively simple and peaceful but beneath the surface there are awkward problems for Black to deal with. For an amateur player I would think the Exchange Caro is not a bad recommendation since it is solid while still gives chances for a advantage , the advance Caro with Nf3 as Short used to play was recommended by Kaufmann and is not a bad choice either except that these days there seems to be more and more theory accumulating in that direction.
  
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