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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Caro-Kann exchange variation (Read 49644 times)
kylemeister
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #52 - 01/15/19 at 18:10:11
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Just thought I'd post a nice game from Tata Steel (where the Exchange has been played a few times so far this year), involving a teenage GM against a former world #4 player.  It varies from a line which came up earlier in the thread by Black's omission of ...Bxf3 before ...Bd6.



annotated by Herman Grooten in Dutch at
https://www.schaaksite.nl/2019/01/14/lucas/
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #51 - 10/09/17 at 16:24:40
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Keano wrote on 10/09/17 at 12:42:45:
I'll have a look at that, it was a very nice game by Ivanchuk also. Of course White is not committed to go "all in" with Rae1 either. I recall Danny King prefers the calm Rfe1 in these positions and after ...Bg6 he even goes Bf1 I think and later he has a4 playing on both sides.


Speaking of King and playing on both sides, I believe the Johnsen/Kovacevic book on the London System from twelve years ago cited a game King-Houska which went 10...0-0 11. Rae1 Bh5 12. Ne5 Nxe5 13. de Nd7 14. c4 (idea Bxh7+ and Qh3) ...maybe it was just said to be interesting.
  
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Keano
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #50 - 10/09/17 at 12:42:45
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kylemeister wrote on 10/09/17 at 04:29:37:
If after 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. ed cd 4. Bd3 Nc6 5. c3 Nf6 6. Bf4 Bg4 7. Qb3 Qc8 8. Nd2 e6 9. Ngf3 Be7 10. O-O Bh5 11. Rae1 Bg6 12. Bxg6 hg (I recall that whatever GM annotated the game for the Chessbase site thought this position to be equal) Kramnik had played the normal-looking 13. Ne5, then 13...Nxe5 14. Bxe5 0-0 would transpose to stuff from earlier in this thread. So there is the question of whether Ivanchuk with his delayed castling prepared/intended to play otherwise.


I'll have a look at that, it was a very nice game by Ivanchuk also. Of course White is not committed to go "all in" with Rae1 either. I recall Danny King prefers the calm Rfe1 in these positions and after ...Bg6 he even goes Bf1 I think and later he has a4 playing on both sides.

Other than that I was looking at some ...g6 lines combined with ...Nh6 to go a little bit away from the main-lines. Those lines seem to score OK, as does the early ..Qc7 line but for some reason that is just not appealing to me.
  
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #49 - 10/09/17 at 04:29:37
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HgMan wrote on 10/09/17 at 01:08:45:
Alternatively, I note that Ivanchuk responded with 5...Nf6, which receives less coverage in recent books (I've not seen Lakdawala's recent Caro book). It permits 6.Bf4, but maybe that's not the end of the world...


If after 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. ed cd 4. Bd3 Nc6 5. c3 Nf6 6. Bf4 Bg4 7. Qb3 Qc8 8. Nd2 e6 9. Ngf3 Be7 10. O-O Bh5 11. Rae1 Bg6 12. Bxg6 hg (I recall that whatever GM annotated the game for the Chessbase site thought this position to be equal) Kramnik had played the normal-looking 13. Ne5, then 13...Nxe5 14. Bxe5 0-0 would transpose to stuff from earlier in this thread. So there is the question of whether Ivanchuk with his delayed castling prepared/intended to play otherwise.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #48 - 10/09/17 at 01:56:36
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Keano wrote on 10/08/17 at 22:28:45:
Funny enough I am looking to play the Caro as Black on occasion now and have found it tricky picking up a response for Black here that I really like.


You can take solace in the fact that you're playing the Black side of a Caro Exchange and not French Exchange, at least.
  
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HgMan
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #47 - 10/09/17 at 01:08:45
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Keano wrote on 10/08/17 at 22:28:45:
I see Kramnik has picked up up the exchange line as his way to go against the Caro when he is playing 1.e4.

Funny enough I am looking to play the Caro as Black on occasion now and have found it tricky picking up a response for Black here that I really like.


I guess it comes as some consolation that Kramnik isn't enjoying too much success with the Exchange. After the mainlines, Advance, and Panov, I suspect that the Exchange comes as something of an afterthought for many Caro-Kann players. I note that both Schandorff and Houska offer the following recommendation in their repertoires:

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.Bd3 Nc6 5.c3 Qc7 6.Ne2 Bg4 Here, they are both a little too dismissive of 7.0-0 which can be quite dangerous and scores rather well for White. 7...e6 8.Qe1 Bxe2 9.Qxe2 Nf6 10.Nd2 Bd6 11.g3 looks very good for White. Or, at least, the stats back up the suggestion that White fairs well here. 11...0-0 12.f4 Maybe 12...Ne7 is worth a look here?

Alternatively, I note that Ivanchuk responded with 5...Nf6, which receives less coverage in recent books (I've not seen Lakdawala's recent Caro book). It permits 6.Bf4, but maybe that's not the end of the world...
  

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Keano
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #46 - 10/08/17 at 22:28:45
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I see Kramnik has picked up up the exchange line as his way to go against the Caro when he is playing 1.e4.

Funny enough I am looking to play the Caro as Black on occasion now and have found it tricky picking up a response for Black here that I really like.
  
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #45 - 04/14/17 at 02:04:52
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kylemeister wrote on 04/14/17 at 00:02:11:
Timman-Hbner saw 12...Bd6, which was considered an "! =" kind of move.

Makes me wonder what Timman would have played against Stellwagen in 2005.

Keano wrote on 04/13/17 at 22:13:34:
That line I recently learned, can also come from the in vogue London system.

Good reason not to play ...cxd4 too early.
  

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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #44 - 04/14/17 at 00:02:11
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Re Degraeve-Bauer in #42 (maybe I missed it when it was posted), I'll throw in a couple of historical recollections. 12...Bg6 reminds me of Browne-Larsen 1972 (one of a couple of nice games won by Browne against Larsen that year). A decade later, Timman-Hbner saw 12...Bd6, which was considered an "! =" kind of move.
  
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Keano
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #43 - 04/13/17 at 22:13:34
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That line I recently learned, can also come from the in vogue London system.
  
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Keano
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #42 - 04/28/15 at 08:22:10
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A few years later, and this line still looks like a decent option.

French GM Degraeve seems to have a good handle on it in particular

Degraeve,Jean Marc (2563) - Bauer,Christian (2633) [B13]
FRA-ch 88th Nancy (8), 19.08.2013

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.Bd3 Nc6 5.c3 Nf6 6.Bf4 Bg4 7.Qb3 Qc8 8.Nd2 e6 9.Ngf3 Bh5 10.Ne5 Be7 11.0-0 0-0 12.Qc2 Bg6 13.Nxg6 hxg6 14.h3 Qd8 15.Nf3 Nh5 16.Bh2 g5 17.Qd2 g6 18.Rae1 Rc8 19.Kh1 Kg7 20.g4 Nf4 21.Bxf4 gxf4 22.Qxf4 Bd6 23.Qe3 Qf6 24.Ne5 Qh4 25.f4 Nxe5 26.fxe5 Be7 27.Rf3 Bg5 28.Qe2 Bf4 29.g5 Bxg5 30.Rg1 Rh8 31.Rg4 Qxg4 32.Rxf7+ Kxf7 33.Qxg4 Kg7 34.Kg2 Bh4 35.Bxg6 Rcg8 36.Kh2 Bd8 37.Qxe6 Rh6 38.Qf7+ Kh8 39.Bf5 Bg5 40.e6 Rg7 41.Qf8+ Rg8 42.e7 1-0

« Last Edit: 04/28/15 at 20:51:33 by Keano »  
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Keano
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #41 - 07/27/10 at 14:50:41
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I found some excellent notes to this game by Shipov online:

http://www.danamackenzie.com/blog/?p=887

Seems like the early ...Bf5 before ...Bg7 is a nice refinement, although the Ehlvest game Shipov mentioned is well worth looking at. Played through it and it was very smooth.
  
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Keano
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #40 - 07/27/10 at 09:33:20
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Keano wrote on 11/10/09 at 15:59:30:
Going back to this topic, I noticed there was an interesting move-order in the exchange line which was used by Ivanchuk and several other strong players recently, the more I look at this supposedly harmless variation the more I think it is a very good practical weapon:

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.Bd3 Nc6 5.c3 Nf6 (after 5...Qc7!? White can also play the same plan)
6.h3!?
This more or less stymies all possibilities for Black to activate the Queens Bishop which leaves him 2 ideas: play for an early ...e5 and IQP position, which looks like an edge for White, or (what usually happens) Black transposes back into the ...g6 system, where the early h3 is not a bad move for White. Its an interesting side-line.


Ponomariov used this move-order the other day to secure a draw and win the tournament: http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=6549

Admittedly he didnt get much or anything out of the opening, but its clear he regards it as a safe system and had put in a bit of work on it from his comments.
  
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Keano
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #39 - 11/12/09 at 08:42:31
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tracke wrote on 11/12/09 at 08:25:50:
Ive scored 11,5/13

Thats some score with the Black pieces!

Id be interested to know if any of your games proceeded like this:
1. e4 c6
2. d4 d5
3. exd5 cxd5
4. Bd3 Nc6
5. c3 Nf6
6. h3 e5
7. dxe5 Nxe5
8. Nf3!? - that is the move I like for White in the IQP line - Leko played 8...Nxd3 against Ivancuk but Id quite fancy that for White. More critical looks something like 8...Bd6 9. Nxe5 Bxe5 10.Nd2 intending Nf3 - I agree theoretically it should be fine for Black, although not everybody likes going into these IQP positions for stylistic reasons. Amongst strong players 6...g6 seems much more popular.
« Last Edit: 11/12/09 at 10:52:27 by Keano »  
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tracke
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #38 - 11/12/09 at 08:25:50
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Hi Keano!

Drawing conclusions from my own extensive black experience with h3 lines in CKE ( both 5...Nf6/Qc7, Ive scored 11,5/13 on ~2200, white players mostly slightly weaker: 1970-2260) I should say that in these (pseudo) IQP lines the additional h2-h3 is imo a less useful move - its more a weakness! The pawn h3 is someplace where Bc8/d7 wants to be sacrificed, in addition its difficult for white to establish a defending MP on g3. Or to pull back a Ne4 with f2-f3.

Bf5 lines are probably weaker (read: less strong) for black, but more complicated and because of this better to outplay weaker opponents. After Bxf5 gxf5 black has to take care for g2-g4. Therefore black shouldnt castle short, at least not before white has done so and can think about ...o-o-o and ...h5/Rhg8. Or just stay with his King on e8/d7.

In summary I do not see any theoretical problems for black and only good practical chances for him. Thats especially true in original C-K move orders - in London move orders (with ...c5xd4 e3xd4 which I also employ) black of course has to play more precisely. Because at the moment of pawn exchange both sides have already played some system moves and often whites (Bf4,h3) are a little bit more useful and important for CKE structure than blacks (Nf6,a6). But even then Black can get equal chances if he knows what hes doing.

tracke Smiley
  
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #37 - 11/10/09 at 15:59:30
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Going back to this topic, I noticed there was an interesting move-order in the exchange line which was used by Ivanchuk and several other strong players recently, the more I look at this supposedly harmless variation the more I think it is a very good practical weapon:

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.Bd3 Nc6 5.c3 Nf6 (after 5...Qc7!? White can also play the same plan)
6.h3!?
This more or less stymies all possibilities for Black to activate the Queens Bishop which leaves him 2 ideas: play for an early ...e5 and IQP position, which looks like an edge for White, or (what usually happens) Black transposes back into the ...g6 system, where the early h3 is not a bad move for White. Its an interesting side-line.
  
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tracke
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #36 - 10/29/09 at 11:42:05
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I dont know if this is really a simple question. Maybe 4...Bg4?! (my punctation) is the best move, maybe not. I dont really know after several years of investigation. Certainly the exchange system is nothing too threatening for Black but he should treat it carefully. 4Nf3 or 4Bd3 or 4c3 are not without some (but only some) venom. R.Emanuel (remember the alchemy attack ?!) had some nice ideas on his website for white in CKexchange which were not easy to refute.

Especially Black should avoid 4Nf3 Bg4 5c3 Nc6(?) [respectively 4c3 Nc6 5Nf3 Bg4(?)] 6Qb3! what seems to be a clear += !

For myself I have decided to answer all those three moves with 4...Nc6 what is imo the most natural and safe response what doesnt decide on Ng8: maybe that knight might want to go to e7/h6 instead of f6, maybe ...f6 might be necessary (or simply good! compare QGE). After 4Nf3 Nc6 5c3 Black should imo play 5...a6! what is a very useful (waiting) move, White then cannot prevent both ...Bg4 and ...Bf5 . Of course, after 4Nf3 Nc6 5c4 Black has to know the ...Nc6 lines in Panov-Botwinnik attack which are equal/unclear but very theoretical.

tracke Smiley
« Last Edit: 10/29/09 at 18:37:39 by tracke »  
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What is the best move on 4.Nf3? Is it 4..Bg4?
Reply #35 - 10/28/09 at 19:57:38
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A simple C-K Exchange question.
What is the best move on 4.Nf3? Is it 4..Bg4?


Houska's book doesn't discuss 4.Nf3.
Interestingly enough, Wells in his book GM Secrets - the C-K gives 4..Bg4 a "!", while Fritz11 book a "?".
Carlsen has played 4.Nf3 several times and even players like Dreev and Karpov have answered it with 4..Nc6/..Nf6.
Why?

As Black, I don't play the ..Nc6 + ..Bg4 variation in the Panov. (I prefer ..e6 + ..Be7/..Bb4)
After 4..Bg4, would 5.c4 be a good attempt of transposition for White?
  

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*B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6| 1Nf3:c5
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #34 - 10/14/09 at 04:14:38
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Anybody find it more than a coincidence that the French forum thread is discussing the French Exchange for White!?
  
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #33 - 10/12/09 at 11:15:16
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A nice game, thank you for posting it.
  
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #32 - 10/11/09 at 18:49:18
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an inspirational game played today,

http://jugadordecafe.blogspot.com/2009/10/una-partida-de-cafe.html

it doesn't mind what theory says, I think that the exchange C-K is a good practical weapon.
  

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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #31 - 10/05/09 at 12:39:02
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Interesting, although after 13...Bxg3 I wouldnt be so quick to be trying to castle q-side - why not put the king on f1 like Short did in the game? Seems safe enough there.
  
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #30 - 10/05/09 at 12:18:14
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I found Short's annotations to his game against Ehlvest in the Informant, and he gives the following:

11...0-0 12.Qc2! (I agree that this offers better chances for an edge than the autopilot 12.0-0) 12...Rac8 13.Qe2 (+=) with the idea of 13...a6 14.Ne5.

I suggest the improvement 13...Bg3 (this makes more sense than before since White has spent a couple of tempi repositioning his queen) 14.hg3 h6 15.Bc2 (to avoid 15.0-0-0 Nb4) 15...Qc7 16.0-0-0 Na5 and with ...Nc4 coming, Black has good counterplay and should not be worse in this sharp position. I haven't subjected this to close analysis though, perhaps White can improve with a quick g4-g5 lever.
  

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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #29 - 10/05/09 at 11:56:51
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Volzhin indeed prefers 11...0-0 for Black (he gives 11...Bxg3 as "?!" )

I hope I can say this much without getting into trouble - the line he gives against 11...0-0 is not the straightforward 12.0-0 and his evaluation ends in a "small but steady advantage for White". I know 12.0-0 is Dzindzis move and hope to look at your line, but the Volzhin suggestion looks interesting as well delaying 0-0.

Im sure Short has annotated this game in Informator also, be interesting if he gave any comments about the opening part of the game and what he intended.
  
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #28 - 10/05/09 at 11:47:15
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I am happy to agree to a truce. Smiley

I don't have access to the ChessPublishing analysis since I am not a subscriber. Short-Ehlvest indeed seems slightly better for White, but I don't think 11.Bg3 suffices for an advantage due to the following game:

[Event "NED-chT 0708"]
[Site "Netherlands"]
[Date "2007.11.03"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Bitalzadeh, Ali"]
[Black "Peelen, Piet"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B13"]
[WhiteElo "2362"]
[BlackElo "2329"]
[PlyCount "100"]
[EventDate "2007.09.15"]
[EventType "team"]
[EventRounds "9"]
[EventCountry "NED"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2007.11.25"]

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. exd5 cxd5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Bd3 Nf6 6. Bf4 Bg4 7. Qb3 Qd7 8.
Nd2 e6 9. Ngf3 Bxf3 10. Nxf3 Bd6 11. Bg3 O-O 12. O-O Bxg3 13. hxg3 Qc7 14. Rae1
Rab8 15. Qd1 b5 16. g4 b4! {(incidentally Rybka's recommendation as well)}
17. g5 (17. Qc2 bxc3 18. bxc3 h6 19. g5 hxg5 20. Nxg5 {is the alternative,
which seems about equal since White's kingside attack is very slow and Black
has good counterplay against the c3-pawn.} Qf4 (20... Rfc8)) 17... Nh5 (17...
Ng4 {is Rybka's preference. Play could continue} 18. c4 dxc4 19. Bxc4 Ne7 20.
Rxe6 Ng6 21. Qb3 fxe6 22. Bxe6+ Kh8 23. Bxg4 a5 {with a complicated position
where White has at most a tiny edge.}) 18. Ne5 ({Instead} 18. c4 dxc4 19. Bxc4
Nf4 {is equal.}) 18... Nf4 19. Qg4!? (19. Qf3 Nxd3 20. Nxd3 Qa5 {gives Black
strong counterplay but should still be about equal.}) 19... Nxd3 20. Nxd3 bxc3
21. bxc3 Ne7 (21... Qa5!?) 22. Re3 Nf5 23. Rh3 Qxc3 24. Qh5 h6 25. gxh6 g6 (
25... Qxd4 26. hxg7 Qxg7 {may have been better albeit rather risky.}) 26. Qg5
Kh7 27. g4 Nxd4 28. Qe5 Nb5 29. Qg5 Qd4 30. Ne5 Nd6 31. Nd7 f6 32. Qe3 Qxg4+
33. Rg3 d4 34. Qa3 Qf4 35. Qxa7 Rf7 36. Qxb8 Rxd7 37. Qb3 Qe5 38. Qa4 Rc7 39.
Qb4 Nf5 40. Re1 Qd5 41. Rh3 Nh4 42. Rg3 Rb7 43. Qa3 e5 44. Rc1 e4 45. Qa8 Rd7
46. Qe8 g5 47. Rc8 Ng6 48. Rc5 Qxc5 49. Qxd7+ Kxh6 50. Qd8 Qe5 1/2-1/2

The advantage switched back and forth in this game, but the opening and early middlegame was equal.

This is the only game with 16...b4, so it is quite possible that Volzhin did not mention the improvement 16...b4 in his analyses. If this move is included in his analysis, I would be interested to know his opinion.
  

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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #27 - 10/05/09 at 11:06:06
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TN wrote on 10/05/09 at 10:47:05:
In that case, I recommend you do some analysis of tracke's and my suggestions. You will face these lines over the board, which means that the book disservices the reader by ignoring these important options.


Thank you TN, I am well warned. In fairness I think were going around in circles here so lets call a truce and Ill buy a round of beers for everybody. I dont even play this line...yet!
  
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #26 - 10/05/09 at 11:02:53
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In this case Short did get an advantage out of the opening (TN take note!) - The Bg3 idea was praised in the Chessbase analysis by Volzhin who felt Black had very awkward problems to meet - Im not going to copy and paste his analysis here but anyone can do a search for the game.

Edit - Im mistaken and subscribers to chesspublishing are in luck! Its in fact old analysis from Chesspublishing by Volzhin, which still means I cant copy paste it:

http://www.chesspublishing.com/content/6/aug00.htm

His analysis of that game is rather detailed and good in my opinion.

  
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #25 - 10/05/09 at 10:51:40
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Keano wrote on 10/05/09 at 10:28:54:
There is a more serious issue here maybe as to the choice of repertoire, Id disagree with you that the Exchange Caro gives up hope of a concrete advantage. If it was good enough for Nigel Short to win against Ehlvest and if there are still masters and Grandmasters playing it then it cant be all that bad!?

That GMs play lines on occasion isnt really implying that a line has hopes for an advantage (though it does mean it is prolly not totally daft Wink). A GM doesnt need a disadvantage in the opening to be able to lose a game to Short.
  

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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #24 - 10/05/09 at 10:47:05
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Once again you have failed to properly address my points (incidentally that is also why I chose to not reply to your comments in the French thread, 2 of which were intended to disparage me).

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at least I think it was you  Huh it might have been TN in which case I apologise.


You misread or misconstrued MNb's post. He said 'COWE gives a game Dzjindzji-Karpov, suggests an "improvement" that would have lead to a winning attack - but only if Black cooperates like the authors expect him to do. As a consequence they rate the position around move 15 as slightly better for White. In reality, if anyone has an edge, it's Black (minority attack).' This is a far cry from claiming the entire variation to be equal for White at best.

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COWE does not cover all possible defensive moves like the Anand series


No opening book can reasonably cover all possible moves in one book, but ignoring the most important defensive options in favour of less critical moves does not make a positive impression on me.

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the repertoire is more economical


In other words: You agree with me that several of the lines in the book are suboptimal (ie not the most critical choice for White). Then again, any repertoire book has to make some sort of compromise.

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if you grasp the essence of the positions and like the idea, then thats half the battle.


That's a fair point, but unfortunately it's not applicable to most of this book because in order to grasp the essence of the positions and ideas, one must know how to counter Black's most critical moves. In fact, giving variations that are only equal or even slightly worse and claiming a slight advantage would damage a player's understanding of the variation as they would overestimate their chances in several positions and resultantly select incorrect plans in similar situations.

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do you believe that COWE recommends "second-rate" openings in which White is fighting for equality?


No, that is not what MNb or myself stated at all. However, as my analysis and the analysis of others shows, if White follows the recommendations in the book, in several instances White will be left fighting for equality, worse still under the illusion that they are better. I have already indicated in the French thread and this thread how White can improve over ADP's recommendations to provide some (admittedly small) chances of an edge.

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If we can establish that this is not so then your main grievance is that COWE does not present a full tree of the possible defensive moves - in which case I completely agree with you here!


That strays from the main points. COWE does not cover Black's most important defensive moves and the ideas are often suboptimal. From what I gather from your posts, this is the main disagreement between us.

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whereas TN as usual leaves me slightly baffled as to what book he is consulting that would say the Fischer-Petrosian line is OK for Black!


I suggest you read my posts more carefully then. I never suggested that following Fischer-Petrosian is okay for Black, but instead showed that deviating from this game with 7...Na5 8.Qa4 Bd7 9.Qc2 Rc8 or 8...Nc6 provides Black with full equality. So far you have not questioned this with any analysis. For the record, I am referring to Nikitin's survey in Yearbook 79. Obviously there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with Nikitin's analysis, but to do you need to present some analysis of your own to show where and why you disagree.

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I have already adressed TN and Tracke and am waiting for replies so dont try switching the subject...


This is hypocritical as your attempt to address myself and tracke involved changing the subject:

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I dont know what book you have TN but that stuff with ...Na5 is known to be good for White since Fischer-Petrosian. 5...Qc7 is known to be respectable enough although its not so popular, we can discuss that line in a separate thread if you like.


This is a cop-out from analysing as you ignore the fact that Nikitin's analysis improves over the Fischer-Petrosian game, and you have not given any evidence that White has any edge whatsoever in this 5...Qc7 line. I've already given you a head start by presenting my recommendations for White over ADP's line.

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The other lines you give Ill look at after we have fully resolved this ...Re8 position, which seems to be a problem position for at least a few posters.


This is just one of several problems with ADP's coverage of the Caro-Kann Exchange. As I already stated, finding an advantage in this ...Re8 variation for White won't make the variation any better for White.

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By the way, you realise that "the shocking 11.Bg3" as you call it has been played by Smirin and also none other than good old Nigel Short who won a game against Ehlvest with this - cant be that much of a shocker   In the chessbase annotations Volzhin describes this as a "humble move which is interesting and causes serious problems for Black"


This is all well and good, but can you show me how White can achieve an advantage in this line? For example, if Short and Volzhin claimed that 1.e4 b6 was completely equal without giving any variations, would you believe this or analyse the variation yourself and draw your own conclusions?

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By the way, the more I look at this line the more I am starting to like it for White. If I decide to include it in my repertoire I may have to start witholding a bit of analysis myself!


In that case, I recommend you do some analysis of tracke's and my suggestions. You will face these lines over the board, which means that the book disservices the reader by ignoring these important options.



  

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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #23 - 10/05/09 at 10:28:54
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That is a weakness of the book without a doubt ,at least we can agree on something Wink I take the view that the ideas in the book are still interesting enough to make the book worthwhile, I would prefer to spend money on this kind of book than on the "Play the xxxxx" type of book which presents the material as a game collection - this kind of book is usually more prosaic and full of holes anyhow since the format allows it.

There is a more serious issue here maybe as to the choice of repertoire, Id disagree with you that the Exchange Caro gives up hope of a concrete advantage. If it was good enough for Nigel Short to win against Ehlvest and if there are still masters and Grandmasters playing it then it cant be all that bad!? The Nigle Short game with Bg3!? (as in COWE) is an example, and typical of some of Shorts other games in the Sicilian - it all seems deceptively simple and peaceful but beneath the surface there are awkward problems for Black to deal with. For an amateur player I would think the Exchange Caro is not a bad recommendation since it is solid while still gives chances for a advantage , the advance Caro with Nf3 as Short used to play was recommended by Kaufmann and is not a bad choice either except that these days there seems to be more and more theory accumulating in that direction.
  
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #22 - 10/05/09 at 10:06:16
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To be more precise, I think White gives up all hope for a concrete advantage after 4.Bd3. That's what it makes second-rate. It still can be fun for an amateur like me, I have played it for several years.
I don't try to change subject - I am trying to abandon it. I have a timetable for school to make. But you are the nice kind of guy that always deserves a serious answer ...
Neither is my main complaint that COWE is not like Khalifman's series. That is impossible. But I would have expected that it presents optimal play by Black - and then I don't mind if the overall conclusion is = - plus enough sample lines to present all ideas. You will have to admit imo that White's attacking play after 18...Qa6 is quite different from 18...Re8 and possibly also after 18...Qd8. In short, the book should have given three sample lines to show "the power of White's attack" as they put it.
  

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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #21 - 10/05/09 at 09:49:33
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MNb wrote on 10/04/09 at 21:59:03:
I am sorry, but now I don't exactly understand what you expect from me. You won't let me off the hook that easy, but you try to forbid me to insist my criticism (not Watson's) of the book?
I admire your efforts to pursuit White's attack after 18...Re8 - maybe you should write an addendum to COWE? After a closer look (I could not resist) I must admit that 21...Nd7 is incorrect. 21...Ne4 22.Rfh1 f6 23.Qc2 (I had overlooked that one) also looks interesting.
Anyhow, for the last time I will state that ADP should have mentioned this. White's play is not trivial at all. ADP should be grateful that you do their work. As I already said, I am too busy to analyse deeply. I have made my point often enough; you have posts of Tracke and TN to address as well.


MnB in the original thread about COWE you gave this ...Qc8 line as an example of why the Caro-KAnn exchange was a "second-rate" opening and said that it only leads to "equality for White at best" - at least I think it was you Huh it might have been TN in which case I apologise. Ive already pointed out that COWE does not cover all possible defensive moves like the Anand series, on the other hand the repertoire is more economical, but it does require independent research to plug some holes, for me thats part of the fun - if you grasp the essence of the positions and like the idea, then thats half the battle. Just glance at some of the ideas in this thread and the game GM Lie played and I dont think you can fail to be impressed by the beauty of it.

Im a bit confused about your stance in this also, do you believe that COWE recommends "second-rate" openings in which White is fighting for equality? If we can establish that this is not so then your main grievance is that COWE does not present a full tree of the possible defensive moves - in which case I completely agree with you here!

I have already adressed TN and Tracke and am waiting for replies so dont try switching the subject...well eventually get to the bottom of those grievances but for what its worth I dont think Tracke believes this line is completely innocuous, whereas TN as usual leaves me slightly baffled as to what book he is consulting that would say the Fischer-Petrosian line is OK for Black!
  
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #20 - 10/05/09 at 02:26:17
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One last remark - I just rediscovered that I have made a note on this line a long time ago after I had read that internet-review I can't refind. Iso 18...Qa6 and 18...Re8 there is also 18...Qd8. After 19.h5 Nxh5 both the ADP-idea 20.Qg4 Bf6 21.Bxf6 (because of Qxf6) and the Keano-idea 20.g4 Nf6 (perhaps even bxc3!?) 21.Kg2 Ne4 (or Nd7 22.Rfh1 f6!?) 22.Rfh1 f6 23.Qc2 (because of fxe5 24.Nxe4 dxe4 25.Qxe4 Qd5) fail. In the last line there is another funny idea: 22.Nxe4 dxe4 23.Bf6!? gxf6 (Bxf6 24.Rfh1 Bh4 25.Rxh4 f6 is also an option) 24.Rfh1 f5 25.Rh8+ Kg7 26.R1h7+ Kf6 27.g5+ Kxg5 28.Qh1 f4 and one would say that White's attack is decisive, but Rybka only gives a perpetual. I haven't looked closer at it.
  

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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #19 - 10/04/09 at 21:59:03
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Keano wrote on 10/04/09 at 08:41:54:
No I'll not let you off the hook that easy - the ...Re8 position is critical to the integrity of COWE so for that reason I suggested continuing with the analysis, which I will. We know the book doesnt cover all defences, my point is the ideas and other redeeming points more than make up for it. If you dont agree fine, but dont try and insist on upholding Watsons view of the book in every post, or if so be prepared to back it up.

I am sorry, but now I don't exactly understand what you expect from me. You won't let me off the hook that easy, but you try to forbid me to insist my criticism (not Watson's) of the book?
I admire your efforts to pursuit White's attack after 18...Re8 - maybe you should write an addendum to COWE? After a closer look (I could not resist) I must admit that 21...Nd7 is incorrect. 21...Ne4 22.Rfh1 f6 23.Qc2 (I had overlooked that one) also looks interesting.
Anyhow, for the last time I will state that ADP should have mentioned this. White's play is not trivial at all. ADP should be grateful that you do their work. As I already said, I am too busy to analyse deeply. I have made my point often enough; you have posts of Tracke and TN to address as well.
  

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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #18 - 10/04/09 at 12:02:51
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tracke wrote on 10/04/09 at 10:26:35:
I generally dont like to give my extensive analysis here for free so I wont contribute to the concrete analysis of 7Qc8 : imo Black can hold with accurate defence. But there are many more obvious crimes in the Caro-Kann coverage of COWE :


OK Tracke, I think your right in that assesment "hold with accurate defence" - this seems closer to the truth than White searching for equality(!)

The other lines you give Ill look at after we have fully resolved this ...Re8 position, which seems to be a problem position for at least a few posters. The g4 idea against ....g6 lines obviously only works against that move order as you say - its a decent trap if Black doesnt know about it, but otherwise in general I think these ...g6 systems are well worth investigating for Black - I noticed Arkell has switched to this these days also.

By the way, you realise that "the shocking 11.Bg3" as you call it has been played by Smirin and also none other than good old Nigel Short who won a game against Ehlvest with this - cant be that much of a shocker Wink In the chessbase annotations Volzhin describes this as a "humble move which is interesting and causes serious problems for Black"

By the way, the more I look at this line the more I am starting to like it for White. If I decide to include it in my repertoire I may have to start witholding a bit of analysis myself!
  
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #17 - 10/04/09 at 11:45:29
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I dont know what book you have TN but that stuff with ...Na5 is known to be good for White since Fischer-Petrosian. 5...Qc7 is known to be respectable enough although its not so popular, we can discuss that line in a separate thread if you like.
  
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #16 - 10/04/09 at 11:29:38
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Whilst on the subject of holes in COWE's coverage, here's a couple more:

a) 5...Nf6 6.Bf4 Bg4 7.Qb3 Na5 8.Qa4 Nc6 (! according to Nikitin; in my opinion 8...Bd7 is equally strong) 9.Nd2 (White can repeat the position with 9.Qb3, but in terms of the opening, this would be an admission of failure for White) 9...e6 10.Ngf3 Bd6 11.Ne5 0-0 12.Bg3 Qc7! 13.Ng4 (13.f4 Bf5!? 14.Bf5 ef5 15.0-0 Nh5 16.Qb5 Ne7 17.Rf3 a6 18.Qb3 Rfe8 19.Re1 Nf6 20.Rff1 Ne4 21.Ne4 fe4 22.Ng4 b5 23.Ne3 Qc6 24.Bh4 f6 equal) 13...Ng4 14.Qd1 Nf6 15.0-0 Bg3 16.hg3 e5 17.de5 Ne5 with counterplay, K.Muller-Agdestein, Germany Bundesliga 1998/99. This line should have been at least mentioned, but surprisingly this important move is not even considered. As other posters and myself have shown, it is a common tendency for ADP to ignore Black's most important options. See the posts in this thread and the other thread for the details.

b) 5...Nf6 6.Bf4 Bg4 7.Qb3 Na5 8.Qa4 Bd7 9.Qc2 Rc8 is also not mentioned, but seems to equalise quite simply as in Enklaar-Donner, Netherlands Championship 1974, where in spite of Black's eventual defeat, White had absolutely no advantage after 13...Nd7!. At least ADP offer an improvement over the game Maroczy-Capablanca, Lake Hopatcong 1926, although 10...Rc8 with the idea of playing a later ...Nc4-d6 to reroute the knight to the centre looks like an improvement over ADP's rather compliant 10...Nb3.

c) 7...Qb6 is also not mentioned, although to be honest I don't have much faith in this line for Black after 8.Qb6 ab6 9.Na3 when White seems very comfortable in this ending.

d) 7...Qc8 8.Nd2 Bh5 (this bears similarities to tracke's idea of 5...Qc7 6.Ne2 Bg4 7.f3 Bh5 idea) is another relatively rare yet important sideline, where White has difficulties proving an advantage, e.g. 9.Ngf3 Bg6 10.Bb5 a6 11.Be2 e6 12.0-0 Be7 with equal chances according to Nikitin. I can understand ADP not including 10...Bh5 since White keeps a very small edge there, but this move should have been included to ensure that the repertoire was thorough.

e) Expanding on tracke's line B, after 10.Be3 Qd6! Nikitin provides the following analysis to prove that Black equalises: 11.Qb3 Bf5 12.Be2 Nf6 13.Bg5 h6 14.Bh4 Nh5 15.Rfe1 g5 16.Bg3 Ng3 17.hg3 a6 18.Nf1 e6 19.Ne3 Bg6 with equality.

Quote:
No I'll not let you off the hook that easy - the ...Re8 position is critical to the integrity of COWE so for that reason I suggested continuing with the analysis, which I will. We know the book doesnt cover all defences, my point is the ideas and other redeeming points more than make up for it. If you dont agree fine, but dont try and insist on upholding Watsons view of the book in every post, or if so be prepared to back it up. Its a far more interesting book than the usual "Play this" "Play that" database dumps produced these days which are basically a list of games copied from chessbase with an IM author throwing in a few wise-cracks.


The ...Re8 position is not as critical to the integrity of COWE as this 5...Qc7 line, as Nikitin's analysis shows. If you can find some improvements for White in the line occurring in Dzindzichashvili-Karpov, it will influence the theory of the line but not change the overall evaluation of the variation as being equal.

I don't believe the ideas compensate at all for not covering the best moves from Black's perspective. We may have to agree to disagree on that point. And I have already shown in previous posts that my opinion is not always the same as Watson's - to mention another example, I disagree with him on Aagaard's 'Attacking Manual'.

Quote:
Its a far more interesting book than the usual "Play this" "Play that" database dumps produced these days which are basically a list of games copied from chessbase with an IM author throwing in a few wise-cracks.


I don't know of any recent books (from 2008-now) by Everyman, Gambit, Quality Chess or Chess Stars which are 'database dumps'; can you give some examples of books from one of the 4 book publishing companies listed to substantiate your claims? For what it's worth, all but a very small number of the repertoire books I own combine explanations, games and analysis very lucidly.

PS: There are also a number of flaws in the coverage of the Grand Prix, primarily claiming a slight advantage in equal positions - if you want to discuss this then feel free to start a thread in the Anti-Sicilians section.

  

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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #15 - 10/04/09 at 10:52:08
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The most important hole in ADP's book is their lack of coverage of 5...Qc7. In a chapter comprising 26 pages, DPA spend a mere page on what is, according to Kasparov's former coach Nikitin, 'the most promising move for Black'. They also fail to even mention 5...e5!?, which should equalise without much difficulty, as in Prandsetter-Plachetka, Naleczow 1979.

However, this is not the main 'problem' with this chapter of the book. The main problem is that their recommendation against 5...Qc7 fails to even equalise. They give 6.Ne2 (6.Bg5!? is a better try in my opinion although there is nothing wrong with 6.Ne2) Bg4 7.f3 (7.Qb3 Nf6 8.Bf4 Qd7 9.Ng3 g6 10.h3 Be6 equal, Nikitin) 7...Bd7 8.Bf4 e5! (8...Qc8 should also equalise, see the Nikitin survey) 9.de5 Ne5 10.Bc2?! (ADP's recommendation, but in fact White should prefer 10.0-0 Bd6 11.Na3! Ne7 12.Nb5 Bb5 13.Bb5 N5c6 14.Bd6 Qd6 with equality) 10...Bd6 11.Ba4 Bc6 12.0-0 Ne7 13.Nd4 and here ADP state 'White has a powerful outpost on d4 and stands slightly better'. The authors could not be further from the truth - in fact Black is the one who is better after 13...0-0 14.Bc2 N7g6 15.Bg6 hg6 16.Nd2 Rae8 =+, as pointed out by Nikitin.

I could go into details about how this influences the book, but I doubt this would influence Keano's opinion. So I will let the evidence speak for itself.

Edit: tracke said more or less the same thing, as I noticed only after posting.
  

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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #14 - 10/04/09 at 10:26:35
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(PS: I wrote this post before I saw Bibs reply #9 , which goes in the same direction as my point B )

I generally dont like to give my extensive analysis here for free so I wont contribute to the concrete analysis of 7Qc8 : imo Black can hold with accurate defence. But there are many more obvious crimes in the Caro-Kann coverage of COWE :

A) Regarding 5Nf6 6.Bf4 g6 (p.406) COWE starts analysis in already favourable position: after 7.Nd2 Bg7 8.Ngf3 0-0 9.h3 Bf5 10.Bxf5 gxf5 (no derivations given in this move sequence!) 11.g4! white indeed has a strong attack. But why the unknown, incredible weak and inviting 9Bf5? and not the wellknown and unclear 9Nh5! what has been played many times by strong players with excellent results. Even 8Bg4!?, 8Bf5?! or 7Bf5?! would have been better than the black defence covered in COWE.

B) Regarding 5Nf6 6.Bf4 Bg4 7.Qb3 Qd7 8.Nd2 e6 9.Ngf3 Bxf3 10.Nxf3 Bd6 COWE reveals (p.400) the shocking 11.Bg3 (! COWE, instead of the usual and equal 11.Bxd6) and after 110-0 12.0-0 Bxg3 13.hxg3 Rab8 14.Rae1 a6 whites attack works quite well after 15.Qd1 b5 16.g4 (again no discussion of alternatives for black!). Now, in COWE , you can see lots of diagrams with blacks Qd7 staying there forever and blacks Nf6 wandering via e8 to c7 (where it cant contribute to its kings defence!). I have to ask if there are no better defence setups for black? Obviously black misses (among other things like an early prophylactic Rfe8 or the slightly more active Ne8-d6) many opportunities to find a more natural place for his queen with 14Qc7, 13Qc7, 12Qc7 or the flexible 11Qc7 (my personal favourite, but you should work out the best timing on your own). First, Qc7 puts some pressure on e5 and along the c-file. Second, if future sees white playing d4xe5 and f2-f4 then Qc7 has some checks. Third, with Qc7 covering f4 it becomes more difficult for white to send his Qb3 to the kingside. Fourth and really important, Nf6 can go to d7 where it repells a white Re5, attacks a white Pe5 or simply retreats further to f8 (defending e6+g6+h7 and enabling f7-f6). Fifth, most probably Qd7-c7 doesnt lose time (!) as black should be able to play b7-b5 (after Tab8) without preparing with a7-a6: White cannot afford to grab that pawn and go into the pin Rb8-Bb5-Qb3 as Bb5xNc6 doesnt attack Qd7. Btw, in this subvariation Qc7 has already been played by people like Khalifman or Arkell .

C) Regarding 5Qc7 6.Ne2 Bg4 7.f3 Bd7 8.Bf4 e5 9.dxe5 Nxe5 COWE recommends (p.410) 10.Bc2 Bd6 11.Ba4 Bc6 12.0-0 Ne7 13.Nd4 (Yudasin-Kacheishvili, 2004) as slightly better for White. Thats funny because Houska, Rybka, Fritz, Hiarcs and I simply prefer the black position! Besides, the never-refuted and interesting 7Bh5!? (what works quite well for black in practice) isnt mentioned at all in COWE !

* * *

One could go on and on but for me its enough to see that analysis in COWE is often based on blacks cooperation, on neglecting wellknown moves or just on strange assessments of positions. Not only against the Caro-Kann but throughout the book! Certainly there are some interesting ideas and some may even be sound. But I cannot recommend to follow COWE to more than 10%. It has some (and probably more) value from blacks point of view: you see what might occur in many of your future internet blitz games and so youre forced to do some seroius work on your defence to refute such silly attempts.

tracke  Smiley


@MNb: Btw, of course I know (and have read) all chess books ever published by Sportverlag Berlin! But also some nice chess books (in german language) from Ten Have, Amsterdam.
  
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #13 - 10/04/09 at 10:08:11
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OK lets try and get back to the chess in this supposedy quiet and tame line against the Caro.

As I mentioned earlier after 18...Re8 19.h5 Nxh5 (Kylemeister Ill get around to posting about ...gxh5 later but basically I think after 20.Bxf6 Bxf6 21.Qxh5 g6 22.Qh6!? White is a bit better with good chances - this might yet turn out to be the main-line!?) 20.g4 Nf6 21.Kg2

(Now we already looked at 21...Nd7 22.Rfh1 f6 23.g5!! ) MnB gave a continuation 23...Nxe5 24.gxf6 Nd3 Here I give 25.Qf3! Ne1+ (to divert a rook) 26...Bxf6 27.Qd3!?

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White has a dangerous initiative for a pawn it seems he'll be getting back shortly anyhow - the maneovre Nd2-b3-c5 is relevant in some lines, or White can play Nf3xg5 in some lines if Black plays ...g5. We can do some more analysis here if you like but I'm pretty confident about my evaluation, it looks tricky for Black.

The move which really worried me earlier though was 21...Ne4 (as mentioned by MnB also):

Here I think I finally hit on the correct idea - not to take on e4. The continuation I propose is 22.Rfh1 f6 23.Qc2!

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This appears to be very promising since obviously 23...fxe5? 24.Nxe4 dxe4 25.Qxe4 is game over - the Queen and 2 rooks all participate in the attack.

The best defence appears to be 23...Qb7 and now 24.f3! fxe5 (24...Ng5?! 25.Qxg6 Nxh3 26.Rxh3 wins) 25.fxe4 bxc3 26.bxc3 Bf6 (26...exd4? 27.e5! and again the invasion on g6 wins) leads to a curious position:

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*

Here I propose 27.g5!? (that move again, but there may be other possibilities) 27...Bxg5 28.Nf3 Bh6 29.Rb1 (if 29.Nxe5 Rb8 intends ...Qb2) Qa6 30.Nxe5 :

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What is this position? Im not sure if he can do it or not but its clear to me Black is the one trying to equalize here against Whites initiative.

  
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Keano
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #12 - 10/04/09 at 08:41:54
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MNb wrote on 10/03/09 at 20:35:40:
Frankly if you don't feel like discussing the integrity of COWE here - nothing wrong with that - I don't see much point in analysing 18...Re8 any further. I don't play this line with either colour. You seem busy and I am for sure.

No I'll not let you off the hook that easy - the ...Re8 position is critical to the integrity of COWE so for that reason I suggested continuing with the analysis, which I will. We know the book doesnt cover all defences, my point is the ideas and other redeeming points more than make up for it. If you dont agree fine, but dont try and insist on upholding Watsons view of the book in every post, or if so be prepared to back it up. Its a far more interesting book than the usual "Play this" "Play that" database dumps produced these days which are basically a list of games copied from chessbase with an IM author throwing in a few wise-cracks.

MNb wrote on 10/03/09 at 20:35:40:
As I have implicated before, even if White can prove equality, I think every opening book worth its money should have mentioned 18...Re8 - exactly because ADP's idea does not work here.

Hmmm... "even if White can prove equality" It seems to me you've already given up - it is Blacks role to equalize here, not Whites. If Black takes a "time-out" for ...Re8 we have to try and take advantage of that slower defensive move.
  
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #11 - 10/03/09 at 20:35:40
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Keano wrote on 10/03/09 at 10:18:23:
MnB - your main point was that the authors systematically evaluate equal positions as better for White wasn't it? And this was one of the variations you gave as an example.

No, my main point is that the authors systemetically don't do any effort to find Black's best defense in their analysis. As a result they evaluate many lines as better for White without proper justification.
You call COWE an ideas book. Great idea if it does not work because Black has a good defense available. Great ideas book if the gaps are so big and on such important places - in COWE's main lines - that the reader has to develop his own ideas like we seem to do in this thread - note that I have presented a few above.
Frankly if you don't feel like discussing the integrity of COWE here - nothing wrong with that - I don't see much point in analysing 18...Re8 any further. I don't play this line with either colour. You seem busy and I am for sure.
As I have implicated before, even if White can prove equality, I think every opening book worth its money should have mentioned 18...Re8 - exactly because ADP's idea does not work here. Perhaps that proves that I am not in for innovations a la ADP. It seems though that I am not the only one. Maybe it's old-fashioned to call this kind of innovation a lack of integrity. After all Charles Babbage wrote his Reflections on the Decline of Science in England already in 1830, with similar complaints.
  

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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #10 - 10/03/09 at 15:11:03
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Bibs wrote on 10/03/09 at 13:50:02:


That looks like White "disimproving" on one of the old games I recall in this line:  Benjamin-Christiansen, US championship 1981.
  
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #9 - 10/03/09 at 13:50:02
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #8 - 10/03/09 at 10:18:23
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MnB - your main point was that the authors systematically evaluate equal positions as better for White wasn't it? And this was one of the variations you gave as an example. I am defending the Fench position and now this one, seeing as Im not on a commision from Dzindzi for all this I cant go through the whole book Anyway for now lets stick to the chess analysis which is getting interesting, and later we can go back and argue about the book if you like - like I said before its an ideas book, independent research is required to fill some gaps, if peop'le dont like that then they shouldnt buy it but in my view they'd be missing out. For example you found ...Re8, the book didnt give it - if it was the Anand series they would have given every defensive move, but this is not that type of book - would be great if they had gone that way, but with the format of diagrams the book would have been like a telephone directory. Its an innovative book in a new format - I like that you can read it without a chess set and later do some serious analysis if you found something interesting. I like most that its full of interesting ideas, the Dzindzi hyperbole and marketing I found amusing and funny, I see Watson took it differently.

Back to the chess - I dont think I'll have time to post today, hopefully tommorrow, but I can tell you the Kylmeister line ....gxh5 I evaluated as slightly better for White and have some analysis, the line you gave with ...Nd3 I evaluated as better for White also. The only move that really worried me, and which I'll have to look at seriously, is the ...Ne4 possibility you mentioned. Anyway lets not be saying this move is better than another until we can be more sure.
  
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #7 - 10/02/09 at 21:32:14
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The way you compare with the QGD Exchange is not entirely logical. There, as Black, we will be satisfied with equality.
In the Caro-Kann Exchange, with colours reversed, COWE claims an advantage for White. So your point of not fearing the minority attack is not really valid. Black only needs it to equalize, nothing more. This is not the case in the QGD Exchange.
So please keep in mind that I do not dispute White being equal in this variation; I dispute COWE's way to prove an advantage. I suspect that in reality it favours Black for the reasons outlined above. If I am right White should deviate between move 11 and 15.

18...Re8 19.h5 Nxh5 (there is also Kylemeister's 19...gxh5) 20.g4 Nf6 21.Kg2 (I had looked at ideas like these) Nd7 22.Rfh1 f6 23.g5 (a neat idea indeed) Nxe5! 24.gxf6 Nd3 and I doubt any white advantage. But Black can deviate: 21...Ne4!? (iso Nd7) 22.Nxe4 dxe4 23.Rfh1 f6 and White's attack is stuck.

Note how you silently divert from my main point. Even if you prove that h4/Rh3 is playable I maintain: ADP not searching for Black's best defence = lack of integrity.
  

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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #6 - 10/02/09 at 08:57:33
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MNb wrote on 10/02/09 at 03:21:28:
Typically they only give 18...Qa6 and do not any effort to improve here. The point of White's attack is the weakness of square g7, on which the exchange sac on h5 is based. So 18...Re8 19.h5 Nxh5 20.Qg4 and now bxc3 (iso of Kylemeister's Nf6) 21.bxc3 Bf8 as 22.Rxh5? does not work. White suffers from weaknesses on the Queen's Wing while I don't see a convincing way to continue the attack.
So Black has a choice between a forced draw (Kylemeister) and an attempt for the win. Great recommendation! Nobody who knows Spielmann's attacking principles should be surprised. White starts an attack while two pieces (Rf1 and Nd2) are still not involved. At the same time Black has sufficient pieces in the defence (Kg8, Rf8, Nf6, Be7). How can an attack be successfull then?


Ok, now we have something to work with - Ill have a serious look at this 18...Re8 move, but straight away just glancing at the position my reaction is that if Black takes time out on a move like ...Re8 then White should continue 19.g4 as in the Dzindzi-Karpov game, and his attack is faster than that game with the rook on h3 now. We cannot just play the same moves no matter what Black plays!

Ill not say anything conclusive one way or the other yet because I am just thinking aloud, but as a QGD player I should say the dreaded "minority attack" does not exactly leave me quaking in my boots. In the given position I would be much more concerned about the Black king - depending on the next few moves the f1 rook will also enter the attack on g1(after Kh1) or h1 (Kg2). We need to do some analysis but at first glance I prefer White. Ill post some analysis when I get around to it, probably wont be for a couple of days though as I have a busy weekend coming up.

Edit: My first glance opinion 19.g4 doesnt look too good because of 19...Nd7(!) or ...Nh7. Ill check for alternatives and post when I have something ...the ball is in my court Huh

What about 19.h5 Nxh5 20.g4!? Nf6 21.Kg2 intending Rf1-h1. That looks a tad dangerous to my eye. Black needs an escape hatch at f7 for his king so something like 21...Nd7 22.Rfh1 f6 and now 23.g5!! to try and continue

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- if 23...fxe5? 24.Qf3 White wins so Black must try something like 23...Nxe5 or 23...Nf8 but either way Whites initiative looks dangerous....to be continued! Its interesting that this kind of attack would not work with a Black rook on f8, so maybe there is some kind of mad logic here.
« Last Edit: 10/02/09 at 13:58:05 by Keano »  
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #5 - 10/02/09 at 03:55:24
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We all know. As Watson does not investigate the chapter on the Caro-Kann I refer you to

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1254285369
  

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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #4 - 10/02/09 at 03:45:17
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #3 - 10/02/09 at 03:21:28
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A long time ago I have seen criticism on COWE's anti Caro-Kann somewhere on internet, but don't have the slightest idea where. So I can't check if I have seen Kylemeister's defensive idea before.
ADP give 18.Rh3 as an improvement on Dzjindzi-Karpov, Mazatlan 1988. An excerpt can be found here:

http://www.chesscafe.com/text/skittles283.pdf

Typically they only give 18...Qa6 and do not any effort to improve here. The point of White's attack is the weakness of square g7, on which the exchange sac on h5 is based. So 18...Re8 19.h5 Nxh5 20.Qg4 and now bxc3 (iso of Kylemeister's Nf6) 21.bxc3 Bf8 as 22.Rxh5? does not work. White suffers from weaknesses on the Queen's Wing while I don't see a convincing way to continue the attack.
So Black has a choice between a forced draw (Kylemeister) and an attempt for the win. Great recommendation! Nobody who knows Spielmann's attacking principles should be surprised. White starts an attack while two pieces (Rf1 and Nd2) are still not involved. At the same time Black has sufficient pieces in the defence (Kg8, Rf8, Nf6, Be7). How can an attack be successfull then?

I don't think I will recommend playing like this to my son. I certainly will not recommend him studying COWE because of
Quote:
The following analysis reveals the true power of Whites attack.

This perfectly shows that COWE lacks scientific integrity - their analysis only shows the power of White's attack in case of inaccurate defense. That's logic a la Diemer and LDZ.
Of course this does not mean that the Exchange (4.Bd3) is bad. White has several options between move 11 and 15. One idea is 15.f4 idea Ne8 16.Nf3 f6 17.Nh4; another one is ironically the refinement 15.h4 with the idea to delay Black's minority attack a little. But if we have to look at options like that my question will be: what do need COWE for?
  

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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #2 - 10/01/09 at 21:45:09
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Looking at a .pdf sample from the book some time ago, I noticed that Dzindzi et al continued after 18. Rh3 only with the obliging-looking 18...Qa6; just off the top of my head I'd be inclined to play 18...Re8, with ideas like 19. h5 gh 20. Bxf6 Bxf6 21. Qxh5 g6 or 19. h5 Nxh5 20. Qg4 Nf6 21. Qh4 Nh5.
  
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Re: Caro-Kann exchange variation
Reply #1 - 10/01/09 at 21:00:38
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I play the CK exchange variation and enjoy the positions I get from it. White's development is free, easy and straightforward:

-Aim all your pieces at the e5 square, stick a Knight there and play f4 if it takes your fancy
-play Re1-e3-h3 and mate on the Kingside.

Having said that, I also like playing against it as Black. You've got a ready-made minority attack, and can also break in the centre with ...e5 if your opponent lets you.

It's an equal position in which both sides can play chess. But Fischer played it a few times so it's not that bad.

I'm not going to discuss COWE, as I've only read Watson's review and not brought the book, but I'd recommend the Exchange Variation to anyone who just wants a solid, low-maintenance variation against the CK.
  

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Caro-Kann exchange variation
10/01/09 at 08:54:07
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MNb wrote on 09/30/09 at 11:49:12:
It amazes me that Keano, usually a very sensible and reasonable guy, defends this book. He neglects the two main complaints: the three authors systematically evaluate equal positions as slightly better for White way too easy. The three authors haven't done any reasonable effort to present optimal play for Black.
A typical example is the line which was tested in Hbner-Timman, Bugojno 1982. Even Schiller in White to play 1.e4 and win, who recommends the same variation, admits that Black has equality. COWE gives a game Dzjindzji-Karpov, suggests an "improvement" that would have lead to a winning attack - but only if Black cooperates like the authors expect him to do. As a consequence they rate the position around move 15 as slightly better for White. In reality, if anyone has an edge, it's Black (minority attack).


MnB - this is a line I have no personal experience with, but you may be interested in this - this morning I did a database search for recent games by 2500+ players with this line - I came up with only 2 - one by Aagard as White where he won with a Bg5 plan, but the other one is the one that is interesting - Ill paste it below. It seems that GM Lie has followed the Dzindzi line exactly and wins without any real exertion... Maybe we can discuss improvements for Black in this line and come up with the critical line, I confess I havent seriously investigated it:

[Event "TCh-NOR 2006-7"]
[Site "Oslo NOR"]
[Date "2007.??.??"]
[White "Lie,K"]
[Black "Ogaard,L"]
[Round "8"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2529"]
[BlackElo "2394"]
[ECO "D00"]

1. d4 d5 2. e4 c6 3. exd5 cxd5 4. Bd3 Nc6 5. c3
Nf6 6. Bf4 Bg4 7. Qb3 Qc8 8. Nd2 e6 9. Ngf3
Be7 10. O-O O-O 11. Ne5 Bh5 12. Rae1 Nxe5 13. Bxe5
Bg6 14. Bxg6 hxg6 15. Qd1 b5 16. Re3 a5 17. h4

(the whole plan 15.Qd1,16.Re3,17.h4 is from the Dzindzi book)

17...Ra6

(the Karpov game was 17...b4 when Dzindzi continues with 18.Rh3(!))

18. Rh3
(Interesting - Lie plays exactly the same plan recommended by Dzindzi)

b4 19. h5 bxc3 20. bxc3 Rc6 21. hxg6
fxg6 22. Qc2 g5 23. Qg6 Qe8 24. Qxg5 Qf7 25. Qh4
Qg6 26. Rb1 Qc2 27. Bxf6 Rxf6 28. Rb8+ Kf7 29. Qh8
Rf5 30. Qg8+ Kg6 31. Qh7+ Kf7 32. Rg3 Qd1+ 33. Nf1
1-0

(White has won the game following a set plan against a decent 2394 player without too much effort - MnB maybe this could be the line to recommend to your son! I intend to investigate it myself, at the moment I play main-lines against the Caro)

Even if we find a good way for Black here, you cant deny that this is an interesting and appealing idea - I dont deny the book has holes but for me the inspiring ideas more than make up for it. Backed up with some independent research there are the makings of some dangerous weapons here. Watson gives zero credit however which in my view is very disingenuous.

  
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