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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Christoph's Gambit!? (Read 95825 times)
CraigEvans
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #197 - 07/16/11 at 08:23:13
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Another hole in the ZGED (I am giving it a chance by playing it, and plenty of opponents are finding lines which ruin white!):

9...h6 10.Bf4 Nc6 11.Qe1 O-O 12.Rad1 Bd6 13.Ne5 (following Zilbermints-Schiller) Nd5!! and white has nothing for his two pawns. After a depressed think, I played 14.Nxc6 bc 15.Nxd5 cd 16.c4 Rb8 and then just resigned - white has nothing. I see no improvements on white's play.
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #196 - 07/11/11 at 06:36:30
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I don't have the aforementioned yearbook unfortunately but I do have Christoph's book.

After 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 g6 6.Bf4 Bg7 7.Qd2, the idea of delaying castling has been discussed.  There are of course a few possibilities but one that others thought might be strong was the Pirc like 7...c6!?.  I think White is at least OK here.  8.0-0-0 b5 (8...Qa5 9.Kb1 this position is a good illustration of how difficult it is for Black to avoid castling for long which I think is his best move here.  9...b5?? loses to 10.Nxb5; 9...Be6 10.Ng5; 9...h6?! to prepare ...Be6 allows 10.Bc4 of course.) 9.Kb1 b4 10.Na4 Nbd7 (Once again I think Black should just castle with an interesting game.  10...Qa5 11.Nc5; 10...Nd5 11.Bh6) 11.Qxb4 (11.Bc4!? =) Nd5 12.Qd2 Nxf4 13.Qxf4 looks about equal to me.  Delaying ...Bg7 could be tried too but I don't think that helps any.  Often if Black is acting quickly on the queen-side White can castle king-side with decent compensation.

1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 g6 6.Bf4 Bg7 7.Qd2 0-0(!) 8.0-0-0 the move that bothered me was 8...Bf5.  After 9.h3 I thought Black had a strong move in 9...Ne4 but now I'm doubtful.  10.Nxe4 Bxe4 11.Ng5 Bd5 12.c4 I was under the impression that 12...h6 (12...Bc6 13.d5 Bd7 14.g4 unclear) was strong.  But after 13.Nf3 Bxf3 (13...g5 14.Be3) 14.gxf3 h5 (14...Nc6 15.d5 appears to offer White good compensation) My computer tells me Black is still better here but I'm curious as to what others think.  I'd also like to know if anyone has a better idea for White against 9...Ne4 or if perhaps White should prefer something besides 9.h3.
  
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CraigEvans
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #195 - 07/01/11 at 05:32:29
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 06/29/11 at 18:07:03:
If I understand the last posts correctly, the line 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 g6 6.Bf4 Bg7 7.Qd2 0-0 8.0-0-0 is discussed by Glenn Flear in a recent Yearbook. Did he review Scheerer's BDG book? I need to upgrade my library, it seems.

CraigEvans mentioned "12.Rh3" and "10.Ne2 Bf5 11.Bh6 Bxh6 12.Qxh6 Ng4 13.Qf4", apparently both pieces refering to Glenn Flear's analysis. Can someone fill the gap, please?


"My" 12.Rh3 is in the line (5...g6) 6.Bc4 Bg7 7.O-O O-O 8.Qe1 Nc6 9.Qh4 Bg4! 10.Be3 Bxf3 11.Rxf3 e5.

5...g6 might well be black's best try, but fianchetto systems inherently give white attacking chances, so I'm happy to roll the dice here - OTB I'm not sure many will know or find the Leisebein variation with 9...Bg4, and every other line I feel is fine for white, with me scoring very nicely in the 9...Bf5 Bangiev variation.

A couple of people have played 5...c6 against me in the last week, so we'll see what initiative I can drum up here and will post the games when I can.
  

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Dragonslayer
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #194 - 06/30/11 at 08:28:13
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Gambit wrote on 06/30/11 at 01:32:50:
...

The Internet has been around for awhile now.


So has astrology...  Wink
  
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Gambit
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #193 - 06/30/11 at 01:32:50
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Bibs, dude, I already have a Master's degree in Political Science from Rutgers University, Class of 2005.

Schiller's analyses can suck, but he makes people think. That is why I bought his Gambit Chess Openings tome. You can find an improvement over published analyses.

The Internet has been around for awhile now.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #192 - 06/29/11 at 18:07:03
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If I understand the last posts correctly, the line 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 g6 6.Bf4 Bg7 7.Qd2 0-0 8.0-0-0 is discussed by Glenn Flear in a recent Yearbook. Did he review Scheerer's BDG book? I need to upgrade my library, it seems.

CraigEvans mentioned "12.Rh3" and "10.Ne2 Bf5 11.Bh6 Bxh6 12.Qxh6 Ng4 13.Qf4", apparently both pieces refering to Glenn Flear's analysis. Can someone fill the gap, please?
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #191 - 06/29/11 at 17:08:42
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SWJediknight wrote on 06/29/11 at 13:08:56:
All very interesting- certainly counter to my intuitions as I always liked the h-pawn hack plan for White against Black's castled king.  I do recall, though, that after 6.Bg5 Black could get an advantage with 6...Bg7 7.Qd2 0-0 8.0-0-0 c5! (Scheerer), and that he recommended 6.Bf4 so as to answer 8...c5 with 9.d5 with the idea 10.d6 supported by the Bf4, giving White decent play.  Unfortunately I don't have access to the analysis either but suspect that if Black has found an improvement it might be here.

I posted a couple of lines where Black refrained from quick castling here:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1233238229/156#156
I must say, recapping, that I did feel that White had enough positional pressure there, similar to Lev Gutman's Bg5/Nh4/0-0-0 line against the Ziegler Defence.  I'll certainly be interested to see Glenn Snow's thoughts!


I'll be sure and make time to post some analysis about these variations this weekend so we can try and inch a little closer to the truth.  For what it's worth I think I found a hole in the ...c5 variations where White plays d6 that refutes Whites play (or at least gives him a disadvantage).  However I think White can play differently in that variation to maintain dynamic equality.  To recap:  I'm going to post analysis of why I think Black should castle earlier and if he does why I think he has the advantage along with my improvement for Black in the ...c5/d6 variation (and what I personally think White should try instead).  I'm not going to post anything about the old main line until someone puts up an improvement for White (I'd really like to see one though.)
  
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SWJediknight
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #190 - 06/29/11 at 13:08:56
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All very interesting- certainly counter to my intuitions as I always liked the h-pawn hack plan for White against Black's castled king.  I do recall, though, that after 6.Bg5 Black could get an advantage with 6...Bg7 7.Qd2 0-0 8.0-0-0 c5! (Scheerer), and that he recommended 6.Bf4 so as to answer 8...c5 with 9.d5 with the idea 10.d6 supported by the Bf4, giving White decent play.  Unfortunately I don't have access to the analysis either but suspect that if Black has found an improvement it might be here.

I posted a couple of lines where Black refrained from quick castling here:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1233238229/156#156
I must say, recapping, that I did feel that White had enough positional pressure there, similar to Lev Gutman's Bg5/Nh4/0-0-0 line against the Ziegler Defence.  I'll certainly be interested to see Glenn Snow's thoughts!
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #189 - 06/29/11 at 05:12:21
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CraigEvans wrote on 06/27/11 at 19:03:17:
Glenn, I'm not sure it is so much an improvement, but his conclusion after 12.Rh3 that black is simply a pawn up seems a little too simplistic to me. White has the bishop pair and the Nh5 cannot easily get back into play - I feel white has enough to hold the balance by pressuring on the queenside. If not then I think there is some scope for improvement in the line with 10.Ne2 Bf5 11.Bh6 Bxh6 12.Qxh6 Ng4 13.Qf4, though I cannot say I have any specific improvements here - just a gut feeling that white has something.

Markovich, I don't claim the games to be overwhelming evidence at all... but for a meagre 2000 FIDE player to be getting so many crushing wins against higher-rated opponents, in all manner of lines, suggests things are not simple. I am one of those who doubts the gambit's theoretical worth, but I think that it is worth exploring further to find out. I certainly wont blindly sing its praises after some bullet games.

I have to confess I am not convinced by this "Long Bogo" line... seems like I'm playing a h-pawn hack where I do not have my pawn on f3 where I would like it. I accept the open f-file gives alternate attacking options, but I think if black avoids castling the compensation cant be enough. I'd rather try to rescue the Studier before I resort to that!


I've started looking again at the old main line and I still can't find equality for White.  Of course the position is quite complicated so I too remain unsure about the evaluation.  As for the "Long Bogo", I'll dig up the analysis sometime (Isn't there a thread or two on the Bogoljubow Defence that would be a better place for theoretical discussions?  I'll look before I post.) but I couldn't find any good way for Black to avoid castling.  White had a surprising number of tactical tricks that gave him at least an equal position and usually more.
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #188 - 06/29/11 at 05:02:08
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SWJediknight wrote on 06/28/11 at 10:10:26:
kylemeister wrote on 06/27/11 at 18:03:38:
SWJediknight wrote on 06/27/11 at 17:48:38:
I think White definitely has enough compensation in that particular line, a conclusion supported by the book


...but doubted by Glenn Flear in the Yearbook.

Sorry, I worded my post incorrectly.  I meant to say that in my opinion White definitely has enough compensation if Black quickly castles kingside, but it is a lot more doubtful if Black refrains from doing so.  (Interestingly, it's hard to find many games in the databases where Black didn't continue 5...g6 6.Bf4 Bg7 7.Qd2 0-0, or perhaps 7...c6 and then 8...0-0).

Trouble is, I found Christoph's analysis of the Studier Attack pretty convincing.

Btw I agree that Zilbermints's line is more of an Anti-Benoni than a Benoni.


I think Black's best is to castle quickly although it went against my intuition and was surprised by it.  I don't have access to the analysis right now but at some point I will post what I have so we can discuss it further. 
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #187 - 06/28/11 at 15:53:30
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SWJediknight wrote on 06/28/11 at 10:10:26:
Sorry, I worded my post incorrectly.  I meant to say that in my opinion White definitely has enough compensation if Black quickly castles kingside, but it is a lot more doubtful if Black refrains from doing so.


That's what I understood you to be saying.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #186 - 06/28/11 at 11:49:19
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Gambit wrote on 06/27/11 at 19:05:55:
Stigma, I thought 1 d4 c5 was the Old Benoni Defense. The Russian chessbooks I have call 1 d4 c5 the Benoni Defense. Now, Zilbermints Anti-Benoni does sound intriguing. Unfortunately for your viewpoint, the name Zilbermints Benoni has been around since 1995. It is in Eric Schiller's huge tome, Gambit Chess Openings, and on the Internet.


Not the two most reliable sources, Lev dear.
Schiller seemingly take prides in drivel-production. Should work in an old people's home.

'On the internet'. You shouldn't be let anywhere near a university.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #185 - 06/28/11 at 10:10:26
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kylemeister wrote on 06/27/11 at 18:03:38:
SWJediknight wrote on 06/27/11 at 17:48:38:
I think White definitely has enough compensation in that particular line, a conclusion supported by the book


...but doubted by Glenn Flear in the Yearbook.

Sorry, I worded my post incorrectly.  I meant to say that in my opinion White definitely has enough compensation if Black quickly castles kingside, but it is a lot more doubtful if Black refrains from doing so.  (Interestingly, it's hard to find many games in the databases where Black didn't continue 5...g6 6.Bf4 Bg7 7.Qd2 0-0, or perhaps 7...c6 and then 8...0-0).

Trouble is, I found Christoph's analysis of the Studier Attack pretty convincing.

Btw I agree that Zilbermints's line is more of an Anti-Benoni than a Benoni.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #184 - 06/28/11 at 07:24:43
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However, the Anti-Marshall is played to prevent the Marshall Gambit.
  
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CraigEvans
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #183 - 06/28/11 at 06:44:57
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Quote:
Btw. even if I had granted that 1.d4 c5 is already a Benoni, I could point to the Anti-Sicilians, who arise after the Sicilian 1...c5 is already on the board.


Indeed. An anti-aircraft gun didn't exist until the aircraft gun did.

Though someone playing 3.b4 against me would make me very pro-benoni, in this instance... Wink
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

"If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
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