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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Christoph's Gambit!? (Read 94826 times)
motörhead
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #137 - 05/26/10 at 19:50:39
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MNb wrote on 05/26/10 at 14:52:23:
BDG Lover wrote on 05/26/10 at 12:08:57:
Just a short note, but i have found that 8 cd is a better move than 8 Qd2 in the Euwe Defence. Tom's pages are fun and useful though. Smiley


I would like to agree. Still I think 8 cd will not become very popular, perhaps because of 8.. ed.


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May anybody be so kind to give me a hint on the first seven moves. The white steps are close to detectability. But the black...
Otherwise I would like to suggest 10.hg which seems to push Black into darkness our have I missed sth?

  

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MNb
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #136 - 05/26/10 at 14:52:23
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BDG Lover wrote on 05/26/10 at 12:08:57:
Just a short note, but i have found that 8 cd is a better move than 8 Qd2 in the Euwe Defence. Tom's pages are fun and useful though. Smiley


I would like to agree. Still I think 8 cd will not become very popular, perhaps because of 8.. ed.
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #135 - 05/26/10 at 12:08:57
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Just a short note, but i have found that 8 cd is a better move than 8 Qd2 in the Euwe Defence. Tom's pages are fun and useful though. Smiley
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #134 - 05/25/10 at 13:19:05
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motörhead wrote on 05/18/10 at 21:02:03:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/18/10 at 18:56:18:
SWJediknight wrote on 05/18/10 at 17:50:58:
I recall that after 4.Bg5, many lines transposed to lines of the Staunton Gambit that would normally arise via 4.Bg5 with Black's 4th move met by 5.f3 d5.

Yes, 4.f3 Nf6 5.fxe4 fxe4 6.Bg5 Bf5 is a Staunton Gambit, but a line which in the move-order 1.d4 f5 2.e4 Black wouldn't get often and may well be a shade better for Black. And 4.Bg5 Nf6 5.f3 Nc6 6.d5 Nb4 doesn't exactly transpose (7.fxe4 Nxe4! or 7.Bxf6 exf6). In both cases it isn't obvious to me that White equalizes.


I agree. when I first came across that 3...f5 stuff I thought it to be somehow loosening. But a closer look shows that this d...d pawn on e4 is a lasting spanner in white's work. And Black can easiely proceed in a Leningrad style with g7-g6 etc. I wasn't to deep in it but it looks annoying somehow.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/18/10 at 18:56:18:
I admit that it isn't much for Black, but is there a more promising line against the BDG?


On practical reasons this is the more important question to me. You have to be fond of Dutch ways if you play 3...f5. Not to familiar to many black players. So usually white will more often see 3...Nf6 (or 3...Bf5).
Btw. Is it agreed that white gets at least nearly enough play for the pawn in the BDG accepted?
As I read Tom Purser sees "hard times" for the BDG accepted.
(http://bdgpages.blogspot.com/2010_04_01_archive.html)
My feeling is that
  • the Euwe (after a closer look) is nearly okay for white (with Qd2; in variations with Bd3 Nb8-c6 or c7-c5 at the right time are problematic in my eyes)
  • the Teichmann can't be to much of a problem (no closer look yet).
  • the Bogoljubov posed problems to my pupils there is quite a lot of energy directed to d4. It seems as if white has to play it with 0-0-0 and an assault on the king's side. But I'm not sure yet abaout it. Is  there enough play or will white get in trouble after a counter attack in the center...
  • in the Alchemy or Gunderam there is at least lot of unclear trouble with active play for white so that seems to be playable.


The forum seems to disagree about the Alchemy being equal. It doesn't appear to be unclear at all. Black has no weakness and a solid position - a pawn up.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #133 - 05/18/10 at 21:02:03
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/18/10 at 18:56:18:
SWJediknight wrote on 05/18/10 at 17:50:58:
I recall that after 4.Bg5, many lines transposed to lines of the Staunton Gambit that would normally arise via 4.Bg5 with Black's 4th move met by 5.f3 d5.

Yes, 4.f3 Nf6 5.fxe4 fxe4 6.Bg5 Bf5 is a Staunton Gambit, but a line which in the move-order 1.d4 f5 2.e4 Black wouldn't get often and may well be a shade better for Black. And 4.Bg5 Nf6 5.f3 Nc6 6.d5 Nb4 doesn't exactly transpose (7.fxe4 Nxe4! or 7.Bxf6 exf6). In both cases it isn't obvious to me that White equalizes.


I agree. when I first came across that 3...f5 stuff I thought it to be somehow loosening. But a closer look shows that this d...d pawn on e4 is a lasting spanner in white's work. And Black can easiely proceed in a Leningrad style with g7-g6 etc. I wasn't to deep in it but it looks annoying somehow.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/18/10 at 18:56:18:
I admit that it isn't much for Black, but is there a more promising line against the BDG?


On practical reasons this is the more important question to me. You have to be fond of Dutch ways if you play 3...f5. Not to familiar to many black players. So usually white will more often see 3...Nf6 (or 3...Bf5).
Btw. Is it agreed that white gets at least nearly enough play for the pawn in the BDG accepted?
As I read Tom Purser sees "hard times" for the BDG accepted.
(http://bdgpages.blogspot.com/2010_04_01_archive.html)
My feeling is that
  • the Euwe (after a closer look) is nearly okay for white (with Qd2; in variations with Bd3 Nb8-c6 or c7-c5 at the right time are problematic in my eyes)
  • the Teichmann can't be to much of a problem (no closer look yet).
  • the Bogoljubov posed problems to my pupils there is quite a lot of energy directed to d4. It seems as if white has to play it with 0-0-0 and an assault on the king's side. But I'm not sure yet abaout it. Is  there enough play or will white get in trouble after a counter attack in the center...
  • in the Alchemy or Gunderam there is at least lot of unclear trouble with active play for white so that seems to be playable.
  

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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #132 - 05/18/10 at 18:56:18
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SWJediknight wrote on 05/18/10 at 17:50:58:
I recall that after 4.Bg5, many lines transposed to lines of the Staunton Gambit that would normally arise via 4.Bg5 with Black's 4th move met by 5.f3 d5.

Yes, 4.f3 Nf6 5.fxe4 fxe4 6.Bg5 Bf5 is a Staunton Gambit, but a line which in the move-order 1.d4 f5 2.e4 Black wouldn't get often and may well be a shade better for Black. And 4.Bg5 Nf6 5.f3 Nc6 6.d5 Nb4 doesn't exactly transpose (7.fxe4 Nxe4! or 7.Bxf6 exf6). In both cases it isn't obvious to me that White equalizes. I admit that it isn't much for Black, but is there a more promising line against the BDG?

Edit: In the last line, both 7.Bc4 = and 7.Qe2!? look OK, so it seems that 3...f5 isn't really better than 3...Bf5 and some other moves.
« Last Edit: 05/18/10 at 20:53:17 by Stefan Buecker »  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #131 - 05/18/10 at 17:50:58
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The idea 3...f5!? was discussed in a fairly recent thread on here:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1231025114/45
It can also arise via 1.d4 f5 2.Nc3 d5 3.e4 dxe4.

It's certainly a lot better than it first appears.  I recall that after 4.Bg5, many lines transposed to lines of the Staunton Gambit that would normally arise via 4.Bg5 with Black's 4th move met by 5.f3 d5.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #130 - 05/17/10 at 23:32:26
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motörhead wrote on 05/17/10 at 20:31:44:
What is the most dangerous variation against the BDG?
As I saw in Kaissiber, the Euwe-Defence is solid but not too dangerous, or?

In Kaissiber 1998 I preferred the O'Kelly, but the aggressive 3...f5 was close. I intend to check it again, once the new BDG book is out.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #129 - 05/17/10 at 22:42:12
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In the Bogoljubov I prefer Bogoljubov's original idea Bg5 followed by Qd2 and 0-0-0 (Bf4 probably leads to similar play) to the standard "Studier Attack" with 6.Bc4 Bg7 7.0-0 0-0 8.Qe1- partly due to my general preference for castling long in the BDG (the idea of long castling has also helped revive a number of lines theoretically), and partly because the Black fianchetto makes ideas of h2-h4-h5 more potent.  But even 6.Bc4 seemed in decent shape last time I checked, so I don't think 5...g6 is critical.

5...Bg4 is usually met by 6.h3, and then if 6...Bxf3 7.Qxf3 c6 then White gets decent chances with 8.g4 or 8.Qf2 or 8.Be3.  Or 6...Bh5 7.g4 Bg6 8.Ne5 c6 9.h4! gives decent compensation.

The most critical test at the moment seems to be 5...Bf5, after which I agreed with Stefan Bücker that 6.Bd3 is probably the best response, an idea borrowed from the Soller Gambit.  After 6...Bxd3 7.Qxd3 White gets a long lead in development but it's a question of how to convert it into something tangible- many of us (myself included) thought White had enough for the pawn in the critical lines, albeit no more, but there were some including Markovich who suspected an edge for Black.   6...Bg6 7.Bxg6 hxg6 didn't work for Black.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #128 - 05/17/10 at 20:31:44
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/17/10 at 11:53:52:
After 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e4, Tartakower preferred 3...dxe4 to 3...Nxe4, the move from Hübsch's game. I am inclined to agree, but 3...Nxe4 cannot be much worse than the BDG.


That may well be.
But overall: What is the most dangerous variation against the BDG?

As I saw in Kaissiber, the Euwe-Defence is solid but not too dangerous, or? I had a closer look at it and think White gets a nice game...

The O'Kelly too seems to be playable for White after all (was discussed here in depth an there was Stefan's chesscafé-article).

So what?
The Teichmann? If yes, what is the critical variation?
The Bogoljubov?  If yes, what is the critical variation? (There too were some pixels of information on it in Kaissiber prefering 6.Bf4 over 6.Bc4)
Or is it better to decline it?
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #127 - 05/17/10 at 18:17:34
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You could argue that White is "trying to equalise" theoretically in the BDG proper, in the sense that many think it's =+ and fans are trying to prove dynamic equality.

A sample line runs 5.Bf4 e6 6.Qd2 Bd6 7.0-0-0 Nd7 (to meet 8.f3 with 8...Nf6) 8.Ne2 0-0 9.Ng3 (also possible is 9.Nc3 although after 9...Nd5 10.Bxd6 Nxc3 11.Qxc3 cxd6 three pairs of minor pieces have come off - also possible is 9.f3) and now perhaps 10.Bg5.  Black isn't any worse here, but I think White has some practical chances.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #126 - 05/17/10 at 13:16:06
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SWJediknight wrote on 05/17/10 at 09:18:00:
I'm not sure about the Hubsch Gambit, having done fairly well OTB with 4.Nxe4 dxe4 5.Bf4, usually followed by Qd2/Qe2 and 0-0-0 and a kingside pawn roller (especially if Black castles kingside early) plus possibility of d4-d5 in favourable circumstances.  I don't like 5.Bc4 though which gives Black at least a few established ways to reach an equal game.


Okay. I'm going to bite on the Hubsch Gambit remark.

After your 5. Bf4 and then 5...e6 how is white getting anything more than equality at best?

Black can just let white recover the e4 pawn while completing his development, and it still probably wouldn't alter the evaluation of the position as equal.

Sure, this type of thing is likely playable as white, but trying to equalize as white isn't that special.
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #125 - 05/17/10 at 11:53:52
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After 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e4, Tartakower preferred 3...dxe4 to 3...Nxe4, the move from Hübsch's game. I am inclined to agree, but 3...Nxe4 cannot be much worse than the BDG.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #124 - 05/17/10 at 11:24:44
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SWJediknight wrote on 05/17/10 at 09:18:00:
I'm not sure about the Hubsch Gambit, having done fairly well OTB with 4.Nxe4 dxe4 5.Bf4, usually followed by Qd2/Qe2 and 0-0-0 and a kingside pawn roller (especially if Black castles kingside early) plus possibility of d4-d5 in favourable circumstances.  I don't like 5.Bc4 though which gives Black at least a few established ways to reach an equal game.

I'm also not sure that Black has easy ways to decline and equalise (3...e5 4.Nxe4 still leaves White with compensation for a pawn after either 4...exd4 or 4...Qxd4).  Black can "duck out" with a French or Caro-Kann though, which means that the opening may not be appropriate for many non-1.e4 players.


I think White should be very happy to get a main line French or Caro-Kann out of the BDG. Smiley

I could see pawn advances on the kingside working OTB if Black is careless about castling or handling the light-squared bishop, but I really have my doubts about this line. Surely it's worse than the BDG - wouldn't you agree?
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #123 - 05/17/10 at 09:18:00
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I'm not sure about the Hubsch Gambit, having done fairly well OTB with 4.Nxe4 dxe4 5.Bf4, usually followed by Qd2/Qe2 and 0-0-0 and a kingside pawn roller (especially if Black castles kingside early) plus possibility of d4-d5 in favourable circumstances.  I don't like 5.Bc4 though which gives Black at least a few established ways to reach an equal game.

I'm also not sure that Black has easy ways to decline and equalise (3...e5 4.Nxe4 still leaves White with compensation for a pawn after either 4...exd4 or 4...Qxd4).  Black can "duck out" with a French or Caro-Kann though, which means that the opening may not be appropriate for many non-1.e4 players.
  
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