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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Christoph's Gambit!? (Read 94320 times)
Gambit
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #242 - 09/17/11 at 02:07:51
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I just received the book Blackmar, Diemer and Gedult, by Tom Purser and Anders Tejler. It was published in 1998 by Purser's Blackmar Press in Alabama. This book has over 200 games of David Gedult, the French Diemer.

Interestingly enough, I found a previously unknown game which resembles the Zilbermints Gambit in the Euwe Defense.

Gedult - Terolle
Paris, L'Etoile 1973

1 d4 d5 2 e4 dxe4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 exf3 5 Nxf3 e6 6 Bd3 Bb4 7 Bg5 c5 8 00 Nc6 9 Kh1 Nxd4

10 Ne4 Nf5

So far this resembles the game Brizzio-Capdevila, Argentina, 1960.

11 Qe2 Bd7 12 Ne5 Qe7 13 Nxd7 Kxd7 14 Rxf5! exf5 15 Nxf6+ gxf6 16 Bb5+ Kd8 17 Rd1+  1-0.

A great attacking game by David Gedult.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #241 - 08/30/11 at 09:05:53
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Wherer have you been, sevenviolets? Have not seen you in awhile.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #240 - 08/28/11 at 16:39:14
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Hi, still reading the forum from time to time. Recently been looking into
1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 Bg4 6. h3 Bxf3 7. Qxf3 c6 8.g4 Qxd4 9. Be3 Qd6 10. g5 Nfd7 11. Nb5! Qb4+ 12. c3 Qxb2 13. Rd1 cxb5 14. Qxb7 Qxc3+ 15. Kf2 with advantage.  Better is 10..Nd5. Also interesting attempt is 8...h6!? But this Hara Kiri is fun and certainly something what BDGer is always looking for.
and just now 1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 Bf5 5. fxe4 Nxe4 6.Qf3 Nd6 7.Bf4 e6 8.0-0-0 Be7!? is an interesting possibility, as there are some independent positions. My grandpa played it against me today in blitz game. I choosed principial 9.Bxd6 cxd6 10.Qxb7 but was not that easy. With difficult play. 9.g4 Bg6 and now 10.Qe3 Nc6!?, so better 10.h4 unclear.
  
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Gambit
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #239 - 08/27/11 at 12:09:16
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Unorthodox Chess Openings #28, the third part of the Zilbermints Gambit, May-August 2011, has been published. You can check it out on Yahoo groups.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #238 - 08/26/11 at 20:39:58
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Grin
The lack of good threads on the BDG lately is also caused by ArKhein and Seven Violets not contributing anymore. They delivered good stuff, from White's point of view. I am pretty sure their absence has nothing to do with mr. B though.
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #237 - 08/26/11 at 19:37:47
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There are some topics indeed. But many of them are (imo - maybe this is wrong if you love the BDG) killed by a unhealthy style of communication of a player I don't want to name - even if everybody will know who this is.

"A: The line 1. .. .. 2. .. .. 3. .. .. 4. .. .. 5. .. x is better for Black. y is not the best move.

B: I have won a 3 min. game on ICC (or against a local 3rd class player rated USCF 2000+) with 1. .. .. 2. .. .. 3. .. .. 4. .. .. 5. .. y. (No arguing with lines follows, but a complete game.)"

Some friends of the BDG are more serious, which is easy to remark. But Mr. B. doesn't allow any discussion by his style. It's sad to observe.  Embarrassed
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #236 - 08/26/11 at 15:09:36
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Jupp53 wrote on 08/26/11 at 10:57:26:
GMTonyKosten wrote on 08/26/11 at 10:49:48:
I haven't seen any mention of the fact that the last 3 d-Pawn Special updates all covered the BDG, has nobody noticed them or are there no subscribers among the BDG community? Undecided


Having noticed this I think that most BDG fans have nothing to do with theoretical analysis. They play around for fun.


If you think that then you haven't read the forum for long which actually has too many threads on the BDG.  I've been meaning to comment on the last update but have been working a lot lately.  I've never played the BDG OTB but I find the updates interesting.  Of course I think it's healthier if one mixes BDG study with study of more standard openings.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #235 - 08/26/11 at 10:57:26
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 08/26/11 at 10:49:48:
I haven't seen any mention of the fact that the last 3 d-Pawn Special updates all covered the BDG, has nobody noticed them or are there no subscribers among the BDG community? Undecided


Having noticed this I think that most BDG fans have nothing to do with theoretical analysis. They play around for fun.
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #234 - 08/26/11 at 10:49:48
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I haven't seen any mention of the fact that the last 3 d-Pawn Special updates all covered the BDG, has nobody noticed them or are there no subscribers among the BDG community? Undecided
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #233 - 08/14/11 at 20:23:15
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OK, I am guilty myself, but I really think it's time to start talking chess, as in things that happen on the 64 squares.  Either that or let's close this tired old thread.
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #232 - 08/13/11 at 16:11:57
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Gambit wrote on 08/13/11 at 14:43:37:
One, I sacrificed a pawn for development. Thus, it was not a clumsy loss of pawn, as you write. Second, my opponent had to spend time figuring out the correct responses. You were not there at the board, MnB, while I was. Thus, I should know better than you how flustered my opponent appeared at times during the game.

Third, your opponent was not flustered enough to reward him with any exclam for his moves.
Fourth, it indeed takes genius like yours to save a draw against a stronger opponent after that clumsy loss of a pawn.
Five, very few things are sillier than responding irony as seriously as you prefer to do. Possibly playing the BDG is (this is irony again, Lev, spelled I - R - O - N - Y, provoked by your excessive Diemeresque usage of the ! sign).
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #231 - 08/13/11 at 14:44:45
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MNb wrote on 08/10/11 at 15:25:33:
I think we should congratulate LDZ with his excellence defence after the clumsy loss of a pawn at such an early stage. Not everybody would have found those 6 strong moves to reach a draw against a stronger opponent.


But not everyone has the genius of Lev D. Zilbermints!  Grin Wink Roll Eyes
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #230 - 08/13/11 at 14:43:37
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One, I sacrificed a pawn for development. Thus, it was not a clumsy loss of pawn, as you write. Second, my opponent had to spend time figuring out the correct responses. You were not there at the board, MnB, while I was. Thus, I should know better than you how flustered my opponent appeared at times during the game.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #229 - 08/12/11 at 19:58:28
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Gambit wrote on 08/12/11 at 18:50:35:
Actually, MnB, both players had played the best moves in order to reach the drawn result.

Sure. But according to the exclams you attached your opponent did not have to find particularly strong and difficult ones. You had to 6 times. So your opponent had a relatively easy day while you had to work very hard. It's admirable that you were up to that immense task. The draw was certainly a hard earned reward. The admiration can only grow when we take the opening moves into account.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #228 - 08/12/11 at 18:50:35
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Actually, MnB, both players had played the best moves in order to reach the drawn result.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #227 - 08/11/11 at 18:35:34
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I just realised that my attempt at humour has led to the thread going completely off-topic.  Embarrassed
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #226 - 08/11/11 at 17:51:35
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TN wrote on 08/10/11 at 11:43:36:
Always question the moves with exclamation marks attached to them.  Grin


Always question a move with any decoration attached to it.  Decorations in chess notation are vastly overused, and most often they're used to cut criticism short.  Caveat emptor.

You wonder why they're used at all, since if they're accompanied by enough analysis to justify them, they're superfluous.
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #225 - 08/10/11 at 15:25:33
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I think we should congratulate LDZ with his excellence defence after the clumsy loss of a pawn at such an early stage. Not everybody would have found those 6 strong moves to reach a draw against a stronger opponent.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #224 - 08/10/11 at 14:13:52
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Exclamations are ultimately pointless anyway. As Dr. Hübner pointed out, there are only the correct move and all the other, inferior ones, so '?!', '?' and '??' should suffice!  Wink

Now that makes for very boring annotations. But it's more worrying when people present a spectacular win (often with a dubious gambit or other offbeat opening) without ever stopping to consider where the loser went wrong.
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #223 - 08/10/11 at 12:54:22
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Gambit wrote on 08/10/11 at 12:44:11:
White has a great game with the BDG. I do not see the validity of your argument.


Not doubting that, but I would think white would have won the game if the exclamation score is 6-0 in his favor.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #222 - 08/10/11 at 12:44:11
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White has a great game with the BDG. I do not see the validity of your argument.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #221 - 08/10/11 at 11:46:53
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TN wrote on 08/10/11 at 11:43:36:
Schaakhamster wrote on 08/10/11 at 11:22:20:
Gambit wrote on 08/02/11 at 04:54:11:
Recently I had to play against the ...c6 Teichmann-Gunderam Defense. Here is the game.

1 d4 d5 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 exf3 5 Nxf3 Bg4 6 h3 Bh5 7 g4 Bg6 8 Ne5 c6

Gunderam Defense.

9 h4! Nbd7

Here Scheerer gives 10 Qe2! as best. That might well be true, but I only found out after the game. Experience told me another move was possible.

10 Nxg6 hxg6

11 g5 Nh5 12 Qf3 Qc7

Hoping for cheapos on g3. Oh no, you don't!

13 Ne4! e5 14 Bc4 Nb6 15 Bb3 ed 16 00 Nd5 17 c4! dc 18 bc 000 19 Qxf7 Qb6+ 20 Qf2! Qxf2 21 Rxf2 Be7 22 Bd2 Rhe8 23 Kg2 Ba3 24 Re1 Re7 25 Bc2 R8e8 26 c4 Nb6 27 c5! Nc4 28 Nd6+! Nxd6 29 Rxe7 Rxe7 30 cxd6 Bxd6 31 Bxg6  drawn, Zilbermints - NM David Hua (2217) Westfield, NJ, Quads, 31 July 2011.

After 31...Ng3 32 Bf4! (Hua) Bxf4 33 Kxf4 Ne2 34 Rf8+ Kd7 35 h5 Re7, the game is drawish.


6 exclamations marks for white and none for black and still it is only a draw?


Always question the moves with exclamation marks attached to them.  Grin

This means that BDG is lost for white by default.  Wink And not less than six exceptional moves can save them..  Cheesy
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #220 - 08/10/11 at 11:43:36
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Schaakhamster wrote on 08/10/11 at 11:22:20:
Gambit wrote on 08/02/11 at 04:54:11:
Recently I had to play against the ...c6 Teichmann-Gunderam Defense. Here is the game.

1 d4 d5 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 exf3 5 Nxf3 Bg4 6 h3 Bh5 7 g4 Bg6 8 Ne5 c6

Gunderam Defense.

9 h4! Nbd7

Here Scheerer gives 10 Qe2! as best. That might well be true, but I only found out after the game. Experience told me another move was possible.

10 Nxg6 hxg6

11 g5 Nh5 12 Qf3 Qc7

Hoping for cheapos on g3. Oh no, you don't!

13 Ne4! e5 14 Bc4 Nb6 15 Bb3 ed 16 00 Nd5 17 c4! dc 18 bc 000 19 Qxf7 Qb6+ 20 Qf2! Qxf2 21 Rxf2 Be7 22 Bd2 Rhe8 23 Kg2 Ba3 24 Re1 Re7 25 Bc2 R8e8 26 c4 Nb6 27 c5! Nc4 28 Nd6+! Nxd6 29 Rxe7 Rxe7 30 cxd6 Bxd6 31 Bxg6  drawn, Zilbermints - NM David Hua (2217) Westfield, NJ, Quads, 31 July 2011.

After 31...Ng3 32 Bf4! (Hua) Bxf4 33 Kxf4 Ne2 34 Rf8+ Kd7 35 h5 Re7, the game is drawish.


6 exclamations marks for white and none for black and still it is only a draw?


Always question the moves with exclamation marks attached to them.  Grin
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #219 - 08/10/11 at 11:22:20
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Gambit wrote on 08/02/11 at 04:54:11:
Recently I had to play against the ...c6 Teichmann-Gunderam Defense. Here is the game.

1 d4 d5 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 exf3 5 Nxf3 Bg4 6 h3 Bh5 7 g4 Bg6 8 Ne5 c6

Gunderam Defense.

9 h4! Nbd7

Here Scheerer gives 10 Qe2! as best. That might well be true, but I only found out after the game. Experience told me another move was possible.

10 Nxg6 hxg6

11 g5 Nh5 12 Qf3 Qc7

Hoping for cheapos on g3. Oh no, you don't!

13 Ne4! e5 14 Bc4 Nb6 15 Bb3 ed 16 00 Nd5 17 c4! dc 18 bc 000 19 Qxf7 Qb6+ 20 Qf2! Qxf2 21 Rxf2 Be7 22 Bd2 Rhe8 23 Kg2 Ba3 24 Re1 Re7 25 Bc2 R8e8 26 c4 Nb6 27 c5! Nc4 28 Nd6+! Nxd6 29 Rxe7 Rxe7 30 cxd6 Bxd6 31 Bxg6  drawn, Zilbermints - NM David Hua (2217) Westfield, NJ, Quads, 31 July 2011.

After 31...Ng3 32 Bf4! (Hua) Bxf4 33 Kxf4 Ne2 34 Rf8+ Kd7 35 h5 Re7, the game is drawish.


6 exclamations marks for white and none for black and still it is only a draw?
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #218 - 08/10/11 at 10:18:25
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I should mention that Cristoph decided to revamp the game annotations for the last update, so anyone who downloaded these in the first few days should download them again and replace the first version. Wink
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #217 - 08/02/11 at 04:54:11
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Recently I had to play against the ...c6 Teichmann-Gunderam Defense. Here is the game.

1 d4 d5 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 exf3 5 Nxf3 Bg4 6 h3 Bh5 7 g4 Bg6 8 Ne5 c6

Gunderam Defense.

9 h4! Nbd7

Here Scheerer gives 10 Qe2! as best. That might well be true, but I only found out after the game. Experience told me another move was possible.

10 Nxg6 hxg6

11 g5 Nh5 12 Qf3 Qc7

Hoping for cheapos on g3. Oh no, you don't!

13 Ne4! e5 14 Bc4 Nb6 15 Bb3 ed 16 00 Nd5 17 c4! dc 18 bc 000 19 Qxf7 Qb6+ 20 Qf2! Qxf2 21 Rxf2 Be7 22 Bd2 Rhe8 23 Kg2 Ba3 24 Re1 Re7 25 Bc2 R8e8 26 c4 Nb6 27 c5! Nc4 28 Nd6+! Nxd6 29 Rxe7 Rxe7 30 cxd6 Bxd6 31 Bxg6  drawn, Zilbermints - NM David Hua (2217) Westfield, NJ, Quads, 31 July 2011.

After 31...Ng3 32 Bf4! (Hua) Bxf4 33 Kxf4 Ne2 34 Rf8+ Kd7 35 h5 Re7, the game is drawish.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #216 - 07/24/11 at 10:17:44
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I agree that Black stands very well after 8.g4 Bd7 9.Bxd6 cxd6 10.Qxb7 Nc6! (this is closely analogous to the Englund Gambit, when Bc3??/Bc6?? is a common error).  Here 11.Bb5 doesn't work due to 11...Rb8 12.Qa6 Nxd4, but if 11.0-0-0 then Black puts more pressure on b2 and d4 with 11...Rb8 12.Qa6 Bg7.

I agree with 8.g4 Bd7 9.0-0-0 Bg7 (or vice versa) when 10.Qg3 does look interesting.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #215 - 07/24/11 at 10:15:10
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Glenn Snow wrote on 07/24/11 at 09:20:32:
(which I've been calling the Kosten birthday variation)

Lol Wink
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #214 - 07/24/11 at 09:20:32
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After 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 Bf5 5.fxe4 Nxe4 6.Qf3 Nd6 7.Bf4 g6!? (which I've been calling the Kosten birthday variation) I think White does best to play either:

A. 8.0-0-0 Bg7 9.Be5, or

B. 8.g4 Bd7 9.0-0-0 Bg7 (Whites 8th and 9th could be reversed me thinks) 10.Qg3

With about equal play which still makes 7...g6 an important move.  Has this really not been played or thought of before?
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #213 - 07/24/11 at 07:06:00
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10. - Bc6?
10. - Nc6 is the natural developing move and white is in a really difficult position imo. 2 Bishops, safer King, better development, better pawn position, all this is on the black account.

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #212 - 07/23/11 at 20:34:32
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I haven't check this too thoroughly (since I don't have a board at my proposal from where I am typing this), but I don't think it is such a good idea if White plays 8 g4!

Since Black cannot take on c2 (the bishop is just lost after 9 Rc1), there is

a.) 8...Bd7, and analogous to 7...Bd7 White can play 9 Bxd6 followed by 10 Qxb7 when 10...Bc6 is met by 11 Bb5.

b.) 8...Bc8/Be6 9 Be5, and compared to 7...Bc8 8 0-0-0 g6 9 Be5 Black cannot play Bh6, which means he has to play either 9...f6 or 9...Rg8, weakening his position in both cases.
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #211 - 07/23/11 at 10:32:03
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I've checked the book, interestingly it doesn't mention 7...g6 despite mentioning the analogous possibility 6...Nxc3 7.bxc3 g6.  I think it's a pretty good alternative for Black, and as in most of the other lines White should probably resist the b7-pawn- perhaps 8.0-0-0 Bg7 9.g4 Bd7 10.Bg2 Nc6 11.Nge2 instead.  Christoph will probably have better ideas than me on how to continue.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #210 - 07/22/11 at 19:10:17
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A thought just occurred to me while looking at Cristoph's June update on the Diemer Gambit, probably it is just stupid, but after 6...Nd6 7 Bf4 why can't Black simply play 7...g6 to defend the f5-bishop?
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #209 - 07/22/11 at 10:31:55
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I had a game in the Seidel-Hall Attack yesterday at the local chess club: 1.e4 d5 2.d4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bg4 6.h3 Bxf3 7.Qxf3 c6 8.g4 Qxd4 9.Be3 Qe5 10.0-0-0 e6 11.g5 Nd5? (11...Nfd7 leaves White with roughly two pawns' worth of compensation) 12.Nxd5 cxd5, but then erred with 13.Bd3? (13.Bf4! Qe4 14.Qxe4 dxe4 15.Bxb8! is winning for White as 15...Rxb8 16.Bb5+ Ke7 17.Rd7+ is an absolute slaughter- unfortunately I didn't find this OTB, as it happens I checked Scheerer's book and the line is indeed mentioned there).  I can't remember the moves of the rest of the game, but Black got the better of it into the middlegame then blundered late on.  In any case, that line is a lot of fun.

I'm not sure that Black has any way to get an advantage against the BDG at present with 5...g6 6.Bf4 and 5...c6 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.Bg5 both offering roughly equal play, though of course there are many ways to reach an equal position.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #208 - 07/22/11 at 09:01:33
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TN wrote on 07/22/11 at 05:55:56:
Gambit wrote on 07/22/11 at 03:43:25:
Methinks I will post a large collection of my BDG games here, beginning with 1991. Should I create a new topic for it, "Lev's BDG Games, 1991 - 2011?
There are some that have never seen print; others are widely known.

Let me know what you think.


I won't read it, but it's best in a separate thread.


Useful I'm sure but probably a pgn file is best.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #207 - 07/22/11 at 05:55:56
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Gambit wrote on 07/22/11 at 03:43:25:
Methinks I will post a large collection of my BDG games here, beginning with 1991. Should I create a new topic for it, "Lev's BDG Games, 1991 - 2011?
There are some that have never seen print; others are widely known.

Let me know what you think.


I won't read it, but it's best in a separate thread.
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #206 - 07/22/11 at 03:43:25
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Methinks I will post a large collection of my BDG games here, beginning with 1991. Should I create a new topic for it, "Lev's BDG Games, 1991 - 2011?
There are some that have never seen print; others are widely known.

Let me know what you think.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #205 - 07/18/11 at 10:15:31
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I remember ArkHeiN originally advocated 7.Qe2 e6 8.Bg5 (or 7.Bg5 e6 8.Qe2) 8...Be7 9.0-0-0!, with sufficient compensation, but the critical flaw in this was 8...Bb4!, when White has to castle kingside and doesn't quite get enough. 

Thus, if Black plays 7.Bg5 Nbd7 then one idea was to continue with 8.Qe2 and 9.0-0-0 since Black cannot get in 8...Bb4.  8...e6 9.0-0-0 Be7 simply transposes to the aforementioned line while 9...Bb4 10.d5! works quite well for White (e.g. 10...Bxc3 11.dxe6 fxe6 12.Bxe6 Bxe6 13.Qxe6+ Qe7 14.Qxe7+ Kxe7 15.bxc3 and White's activity compensates for the doubled pawns).

Re. 5...g6 6.Bf4 Bg7 7.Qd2 c6 8.0-0-0, I considered 8...Bf5 and gave 9.Bh6 Bxh6 10.Qxh6 Nbd7 11.Bc4 e6 12.h3 Qe7 13.g4 Be4 14.Rhf1 0-0-0, with a similar sort of situation to Gutman's recommendation against the O'Kelly (I think White has enough long-term pressure for the pawn here).  Another option, that I didn't consider at the time, is 9.h3 when Black probably has nothing better than to transpose to the line we've just been considering via 9...0-0, e.g. 9...Nbd7 10.g4 Be4 11.Nxe4 Bxe4 12.Bg2, and I'm not sure that Black's king would be any safer on the queenside here in view of possible Re3-b3 rook lifts for example.

Someone else in an earlier thread suggested 6...c6 7.Qd2 Nbd7 8.Bc4 Nb6 9.Bb3 a5 10.a4 Nd5, which is the main line that put some doubts in my mind, but I think White may be OK with 11.0-0 there, while I suggested "8.0-0-0, e.g. 8...Nb6 9.Bd3 Be6 10.Rhe1 with ideas of Bxf6 and Ne5, and if 10...Bg7 then 11.Bh6" as a possible alternative way of reaching a dynamically equal situation.  It does seem to me that if Black refrains from ...0-0 then White gets play in the manner of Gutman's recommendation against 4/5...c6.
« Last Edit: 07/18/11 at 14:26:25 by SWJediknight »  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #204 - 07/17/11 at 22:27:51
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Yes indeed, after 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 g6 6.Bf4 Bg7 7.Qd2 0-0 8.0-0-0 Bf5 9.h3 Ne4 10.Nxe4 Bxe4 11.Ng5 Bd5 your 12.h4! seems like a good solution!  I had looked at this but completely underestimated and misanalyzed it.  The position seems dynamically equal. 

Speaking of the O'kelly-Variation, after 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 c6 (After 4...exf3 5.Nxf3 c6 6.Bd3 I think I have an improvement for Black that I'll post sometime.) 5.Bc4 exf3 6.Nxf3 Bf5 7.Bg5!, I had wondered what would happen if Black played 7...Nbd7 (instead of 7...e6) since now he can answer 8.Nh4 with 8...Bg4.  If my analysis is correct, however, White is still Ok if he follows the basic Gutman plan of 9.Qd3 and plays the thematic h3, g4, Nxg6, 0-0-0 moves in most variations.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #203 - 07/17/11 at 19:43:23
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Thank you, Craig, for your information regarding the variation ("12.Rh3 is in the line (5...g6) 6.Bc4 Bg7 7.O-O O-O 8.Qe1 Nc6 9.Qh4 Bg4! 10.Be3 Bxf3 11.Rxf3 e5.")

Glenn Snow wrote on 07/16/11 at 21:25:31:
Glenn Snow wrote on 07/11/11 at 06:36:30:
I don't have the aforementioned yearbook unfortunately but I do have Christoph's book.

After 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 g6 6.Bf4 Bg7 7.Qd2, the idea of delaying castling has been discussed.  There are of course a few possibilities but one that others thought might be strong was the Pirc like 7...c6!?.  I think White is at least OK here.  8.0-0-0 b5 (8...Qa5 9.Kb1 this position is a good illustration of how difficult it is for Black to avoid castling for long which I think is his best move here.  9...b5?? loses to 10.Nxb5; 9...Be6 10.Ng5; 9...h6?! to prepare ...Be6 allows 10.Bc4 of course.) 9.Kb1 b4 10.Na4 Nbd7 (Once again I think Black should just castle with an interesting game.  10...Qa5 11.Nc5; 10...Nd5 11.Bh6) 11.Qxb4 (11.Bc4!? =) Nd5 12.Qd2 Nxf4 13.Qxf4 looks about equal to me.  Delaying ...Bg7 could be tried too but I don't think that helps any.  Often if Black is acting quickly on the queen-side White can castle king-side with decent compensation.

1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 g6 6.Bf4 Bg7 7.Qd2 0-0(!) 8.0-0-0 the move that bothered me was 8...Bf5.  After 9.h3 I thought Black had a strong move in 9...Ne4 but now I'm doubtful.  10.Nxe4 Bxe4 11.Ng5 Bd5 12.c4 I was under the impression that 12...h6 (12...Bc6 13.d5 Bd7 14.g4 unclear) was strong.  But after 13.Nf3 Bxf3 (13...g5 14.Be3) 14.gxf3 h5 (14...Nc6 15.d5 appears to offer White good compensation) My computer tells me Black is still better here but I'm curious as to what others think.  I'd also like to know if anyone has a better idea for White against 9...Ne4 or if perhaps White should prefer something besides 9.h3.


Looking at this some more lately and am starting to agree more with the computer.  After 14...h5, Houdini gives a few moves but one which isn't in it's top three is 15.Qe3!?.  I've been looking at this with the idea of following up with Rh2 in most cases and White has some chances although I doubt full compensation. 

Would 12. h4 (instead of 12.c4; highlighted above) be playable? A possible variation: 12...h6 13.Nh3 h5 14.Be5 Nd7 15.Bxg7 Kxg7 16.Bd3 c6 (16...e5, about =) 17. Rhe1 e5 (not 17...Bxa2?! 18.b3 followed by 19.Qg5; 17...b5 18.Qg5) 18.dxe5 Qxh4 19.Nf4 Nc5 20.Qe3 Qe7 21.e6 or similar ideas; White has full compensation.

In Kaissiber #8 (1998), p. 48, I criticized 6.Bc4?, instead advocating (p. 51) 6.Bf4 Bg7 7.Qd2 0-0 8.0-0-0. Here I didn't consider 8...Bf5. Still, I like White's position. After the renaissance of Albin's CG with some fine books on the topic, these positions appear sufficiently promising to me. It is a lasting, asymmetrical structure, to achieve pawn breaks costs Black a lot of time, and h2-h4 follows soon enough.

If a specific treatment of the g6 Bogol-Variation seemed in fact dangerous for White, I'd gladly ask Gutman again to find a solution, as in the O'Kelly-Variation c6. It was a very weird experience: he found in an hour what I hadn't seen in two weeks. But for the moment White seems fine here, right?
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #202 - 07/17/11 at 17:28:02
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Gambit wrote on 07/17/11 at 17:18:06:
Really, Glenn? How many opponents are going to find these moves in over-the-board play, without a computer to help them?


Sometimes it's worthwhile to find the truth in the position.  However, I don't want to get into a discussion about the practical benefits of gambit play.  Such a discussion could be quite interesting though if placed in the "General Chess" section here.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #201 - 07/17/11 at 17:18:06
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Really, Glenn? How many opponents are going to find these moves in over-the-board play, without a computer to help them?
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #200 - 07/17/11 at 00:53:59
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Another idea after, 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 g6 6.Bf4 Bg7 7.Qd2 0-0 8.0-0-0 Bf6 9.h3 Ne4 10.Nxe4 Bxe4 is:

11.Qe3!?, the computer likes 11...Qd5 but 12.Be2 Nd7 13.Ng5 looks interesting although it still seems like White is coming up a little short.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #199 - 07/16/11 at 21:25:31
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Glenn Snow wrote on 07/11/11 at 06:36:30:
I don't have the aforementioned yearbook unfortunately but I do have Christoph's book.

After 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 g6 6.Bf4 Bg7 7.Qd2, the idea of delaying castling has been discussed.  There are of course a few possibilities but one that others thought might be strong was the Pirc like 7...c6!?.  I think White is at least OK here.  8.0-0-0 b5 (8...Qa5 9.Kb1 this position is a good illustration of how difficult it is for Black to avoid castling for long which I think is his best move here.  9...b5?? loses to 10.Nxb5; 9...Be6 10.Ng5; 9...h6?! to prepare ...Be6 allows 10.Bc4 of course.) 9.Kb1 b4 10.Na4 Nbd7 (Once again I think Black should just castle with an interesting game.  10...Qa5 11.Nc5; 10...Nd5 11.Bh6) 11.Qxb4 (11.Bc4!? =) Nd5 12.Qd2 Nxf4 13.Qxf4 looks about equal to me.  Delaying ...Bg7 could be tried too but I don't think that helps any.  Often if Black is acting quickly on the queen-side White can castle king-side with decent compensation.

1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 g6 6.Bf4 Bg7 7.Qd2 0-0(!) 8.0-0-0 the move that bothered me was 8...Bf5.  After 9.h3 I thought Black had a strong move in 9...Ne4 but now I'm doubtful.  10.Nxe4 Bxe4 11.Ng5 Bd5 12.c4 I was under the impression that 12...h6 (12...Bc6 13.d5 Bd7 14.g4 unclear) was strong.  But after 13.Nf3 Bxf3 (13...g5 14.Be3) 14.gxf3 h5 (14...Nc6 15.d5 appears to offer White good compensation) My computer tells me Black is still better here but I'm curious as to what others think.  I'd also like to know if anyone has a better idea for White against 9...Ne4 or if perhaps White should prefer something besides 9.h3.


Looking at this some more lately and am starting to agree more with the computer.  After 14...h5, Houdini gives a few moves but one which isn't in it's top three is 15.Qe3!?.  I've been looking at this with the idea of following up with Rh2 in most cases and White has some chances although I doubt full compensation.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #198 - 07/16/11 at 20:10:06
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Can you send me the game scores? So far you have 1 win and 1 loss, unless there are other games I am unaware of.

Also, in postal chess, the opponent has more time to calculate and perhaps even use a computer. I mentioned this more than once.

I am curious about your "numerous opponents" that you mention. So far, I have seen only two of your games with the Zilbermints Gambit. While your efforts are to be saluted, two games are hardly "numerous". Perhaps there are other games (maybe a half-dozen) that I do not know about? That certainly would qualify as numerous.

Good luck with the Zilbermints Gambit!
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #197 - 07/16/11 at 08:23:13
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Another hole in the ZGED (I am giving it a chance by playing it, and plenty of opponents are finding lines which ruin white!):

9...h6 10.Bf4 Nc6 11.Qe1 O-O 12.Rad1 Bd6 13.Ne5 (following Zilbermints-Schiller) Nd5!! and white has nothing for his two pawns. After a depressed think, I played 14.Nxc6 bc 15.Nxd5 cd 16.c4 Rb8 and then just resigned - white has nothing. I see no improvements on white's play.
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #196 - 07/11/11 at 06:36:30
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I don't have the aforementioned yearbook unfortunately but I do have Christoph's book.

After 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 g6 6.Bf4 Bg7 7.Qd2, the idea of delaying castling has been discussed.  There are of course a few possibilities but one that others thought might be strong was the Pirc like 7...c6!?.  I think White is at least OK here.  8.0-0-0 b5 (8...Qa5 9.Kb1 this position is a good illustration of how difficult it is for Black to avoid castling for long which I think is his best move here.  9...b5?? loses to 10.Nxb5; 9...Be6 10.Ng5; 9...h6?! to prepare ...Be6 allows 10.Bc4 of course.) 9.Kb1 b4 10.Na4 Nbd7 (Once again I think Black should just castle with an interesting game.  10...Qa5 11.Nc5; 10...Nd5 11.Bh6) 11.Qxb4 (11.Bc4!? =) Nd5 12.Qd2 Nxf4 13.Qxf4 looks about equal to me.  Delaying ...Bg7 could be tried too but I don't think that helps any.  Often if Black is acting quickly on the queen-side White can castle king-side with decent compensation.

1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 g6 6.Bf4 Bg7 7.Qd2 0-0(!) 8.0-0-0 the move that bothered me was 8...Bf5.  After 9.h3 I thought Black had a strong move in 9...Ne4 but now I'm doubtful.  10.Nxe4 Bxe4 11.Ng5 Bd5 12.c4 I was under the impression that 12...h6 (12...Bc6 13.d5 Bd7 14.g4 unclear) was strong.  But after 13.Nf3 Bxf3 (13...g5 14.Be3) 14.gxf3 h5 (14...Nc6 15.d5 appears to offer White good compensation) My computer tells me Black is still better here but I'm curious as to what others think.  I'd also like to know if anyone has a better idea for White against 9...Ne4 or if perhaps White should prefer something besides 9.h3.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #195 - 07/01/11 at 05:32:29
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 06/29/11 at 18:07:03:
If I understand the last posts correctly, the line 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 g6 6.Bf4 Bg7 7.Qd2 0-0 8.0-0-0 is discussed by Glenn Flear in a recent Yearbook. Did he review Scheerer's BDG book? I need to upgrade my library, it seems.

CraigEvans mentioned "12.Rh3" and "10.Ne2 Bf5 11.Bh6 Bxh6 12.Qxh6 Ng4 13.Qf4", apparently both pieces refering to Glenn Flear's analysis. Can someone fill the gap, please?


"My" 12.Rh3 is in the line (5...g6) 6.Bc4 Bg7 7.O-O O-O 8.Qe1 Nc6 9.Qh4 Bg4! 10.Be3 Bxf3 11.Rxf3 e5.

5...g6 might well be black's best try, but fianchetto systems inherently give white attacking chances, so I'm happy to roll the dice here - OTB I'm not sure many will know or find the Leisebein variation with 9...Bg4, and every other line I feel is fine for white, with me scoring very nicely in the 9...Bf5 Bangiev variation.

A couple of people have played 5...c6 against me in the last week, so we'll see what initiative I can drum up here and will post the games when I can.
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #194 - 06/30/11 at 08:28:13
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Gambit wrote on 06/30/11 at 01:32:50:
...

The Internet has been around for awhile now.


So has astrology...  Wink
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #193 - 06/30/11 at 01:32:50
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Bibs, dude, I already have a Master's degree in Political Science from Rutgers University, Class of 2005.

Schiller's analyses can suck, but he makes people think. That is why I bought his Gambit Chess Openings tome. You can find an improvement over published analyses.

The Internet has been around for awhile now.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #192 - 06/29/11 at 18:07:03
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If I understand the last posts correctly, the line 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 g6 6.Bf4 Bg7 7.Qd2 0-0 8.0-0-0 is discussed by Glenn Flear in a recent Yearbook. Did he review Scheerer's BDG book? I need to upgrade my library, it seems.

CraigEvans mentioned "12.Rh3" and "10.Ne2 Bf5 11.Bh6 Bxh6 12.Qxh6 Ng4 13.Qf4", apparently both pieces refering to Glenn Flear's analysis. Can someone fill the gap, please?
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #191 - 06/29/11 at 17:08:42
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SWJediknight wrote on 06/29/11 at 13:08:56:
All very interesting- certainly counter to my intuitions as I always liked the h-pawn hack plan for White against Black's castled king.  I do recall, though, that after 6.Bg5 Black could get an advantage with 6...Bg7 7.Qd2 0-0 8.0-0-0 c5! (Scheerer), and that he recommended 6.Bf4 so as to answer 8...c5 with 9.d5 with the idea 10.d6 supported by the Bf4, giving White decent play.  Unfortunately I don't have access to the analysis either but suspect that if Black has found an improvement it might be here.

I posted a couple of lines where Black refrained from quick castling here:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1233238229/156#156
I must say, recapping, that I did feel that White had enough positional pressure there, similar to Lev Gutman's Bg5/Nh4/0-0-0 line against the Ziegler Defence.  I'll certainly be interested to see Glenn Snow's thoughts!


I'll be sure and make time to post some analysis about these variations this weekend so we can try and inch a little closer to the truth.  For what it's worth I think I found a hole in the ...c5 variations where White plays d6 that refutes Whites play (or at least gives him a disadvantage).  However I think White can play differently in that variation to maintain dynamic equality.  To recap:  I'm going to post analysis of why I think Black should castle earlier and if he does why I think he has the advantage along with my improvement for Black in the ...c5/d6 variation (and what I personally think White should try instead).  I'm not going to post anything about the old main line until someone puts up an improvement for White (I'd really like to see one though.)
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #190 - 06/29/11 at 13:08:56
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All very interesting- certainly counter to my intuitions as I always liked the h-pawn hack plan for White against Black's castled king.  I do recall, though, that after 6.Bg5 Black could get an advantage with 6...Bg7 7.Qd2 0-0 8.0-0-0 c5! (Scheerer), and that he recommended 6.Bf4 so as to answer 8...c5 with 9.d5 with the idea 10.d6 supported by the Bf4, giving White decent play.  Unfortunately I don't have access to the analysis either but suspect that if Black has found an improvement it might be here.

I posted a couple of lines where Black refrained from quick castling here:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1233238229/156#156
I must say, recapping, that I did feel that White had enough positional pressure there, similar to Lev Gutman's Bg5/Nh4/0-0-0 line against the Ziegler Defence.  I'll certainly be interested to see Glenn Snow's thoughts!
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #189 - 06/29/11 at 05:12:21
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CraigEvans wrote on 06/27/11 at 19:03:17:
Glenn, I'm not sure it is so much an improvement, but his conclusion after 12.Rh3 that black is simply a pawn up seems a little too simplistic to me. White has the bishop pair and the Nh5 cannot easily get back into play - I feel white has enough to hold the balance by pressuring on the queenside. If not then I think there is some scope for improvement in the line with 10.Ne2 Bf5 11.Bh6 Bxh6 12.Qxh6 Ng4 13.Qf4, though I cannot say I have any specific improvements here - just a gut feeling that white has something.

Markovich, I don't claim the games to be overwhelming evidence at all... but for a meagre 2000 FIDE player to be getting so many crushing wins against higher-rated opponents, in all manner of lines, suggests things are not simple. I am one of those who doubts the gambit's theoretical worth, but I think that it is worth exploring further to find out. I certainly wont blindly sing its praises after some bullet games.

I have to confess I am not convinced by this "Long Bogo" line... seems like I'm playing a h-pawn hack where I do not have my pawn on f3 where I would like it. I accept the open f-file gives alternate attacking options, but I think if black avoids castling the compensation cant be enough. I'd rather try to rescue the Studier before I resort to that!


I've started looking again at the old main line and I still can't find equality for White.  Of course the position is quite complicated so I too remain unsure about the evaluation.  As for the "Long Bogo", I'll dig up the analysis sometime (Isn't there a thread or two on the Bogoljubow Defence that would be a better place for theoretical discussions?  I'll look before I post.) but I couldn't find any good way for Black to avoid castling.  White had a surprising number of tactical tricks that gave him at least an equal position and usually more.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #188 - 06/29/11 at 05:02:08
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SWJediknight wrote on 06/28/11 at 10:10:26:
kylemeister wrote on 06/27/11 at 18:03:38:
SWJediknight wrote on 06/27/11 at 17:48:38:
I think White definitely has enough compensation in that particular line, a conclusion supported by the book


...but doubted by Glenn Flear in the Yearbook.

Sorry, I worded my post incorrectly.  I meant to say that in my opinion White definitely has enough compensation if Black quickly castles kingside, but it is a lot more doubtful if Black refrains from doing so.  (Interestingly, it's hard to find many games in the databases where Black didn't continue 5...g6 6.Bf4 Bg7 7.Qd2 0-0, or perhaps 7...c6 and then 8...0-0).

Trouble is, I found Christoph's analysis of the Studier Attack pretty convincing.

Btw I agree that Zilbermints's line is more of an Anti-Benoni than a Benoni.


I think Black's best is to castle quickly although it went against my intuition and was surprised by it.  I don't have access to the analysis right now but at some point I will post what I have so we can discuss it further. 
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #187 - 06/28/11 at 15:53:30
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SWJediknight wrote on 06/28/11 at 10:10:26:
Sorry, I worded my post incorrectly.  I meant to say that in my opinion White definitely has enough compensation if Black quickly castles kingside, but it is a lot more doubtful if Black refrains from doing so.


That's what I understood you to be saying.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #186 - 06/28/11 at 11:49:19
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Gambit wrote on 06/27/11 at 19:05:55:
Stigma, I thought 1 d4 c5 was the Old Benoni Defense. The Russian chessbooks I have call 1 d4 c5 the Benoni Defense. Now, Zilbermints Anti-Benoni does sound intriguing. Unfortunately for your viewpoint, the name Zilbermints Benoni has been around since 1995. It is in Eric Schiller's huge tome, Gambit Chess Openings, and on the Internet.


Not the two most reliable sources, Lev dear.
Schiller seemingly take prides in drivel-production. Should work in an old people's home.

'On the internet'. You shouldn't be let anywhere near a university.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #185 - 06/28/11 at 10:10:26
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kylemeister wrote on 06/27/11 at 18:03:38:
SWJediknight wrote on 06/27/11 at 17:48:38:
I think White definitely has enough compensation in that particular line, a conclusion supported by the book


...but doubted by Glenn Flear in the Yearbook.

Sorry, I worded my post incorrectly.  I meant to say that in my opinion White definitely has enough compensation if Black quickly castles kingside, but it is a lot more doubtful if Black refrains from doing so.  (Interestingly, it's hard to find many games in the databases where Black didn't continue 5...g6 6.Bf4 Bg7 7.Qd2 0-0, or perhaps 7...c6 and then 8...0-0).

Trouble is, I found Christoph's analysis of the Studier Attack pretty convincing.

Btw I agree that Zilbermints's line is more of an Anti-Benoni than a Benoni.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #184 - 06/28/11 at 07:24:43
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However, the Anti-Marshall is played to prevent the Marshall Gambit.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #183 - 06/28/11 at 06:44:57
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Quote:
Btw. even if I had granted that 1.d4 c5 is already a Benoni, I could point to the Anti-Sicilians, who arise after the Sicilian 1...c5 is already on the board.


Indeed. An anti-aircraft gun didn't exist until the aircraft gun did.

Though someone playing 3.b4 against me would make me very pro-benoni, in this instance... Wink
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #182 - 06/27/11 at 20:10:10
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@Gambit: I realize that the naming is already common, and it will probably stick. But it's still technically wrong.

All the various Benonis have one thing in common: The main lines involve some kind of  ...c5 / d4-d5 structure. 1.d4 c5 2.c3 is not a Benoni, it's an attempt to reach a Colle, London, etc. 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.Nf3 is not a Benoni, it's an attempt to reach lines of the English. And like those lines, your line specifically avoids the ...c5 / d4-d5 structure.

Btw. even if I had granted that 1.d4 c5 is already a Benoni, I could point to the Anti-Sicilians, who arise after the Sicilian 1...c5 is already on the board.
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #181 - 06/27/11 at 19:05:55
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Stigma, I thought 1 d4 c5 was the Old Benoni Defense. The Russian chessbooks I have call 1 d4 c5 the Benoni Defense. Now, Zilbermints Anti-Benoni does sound intriguing. Unfortunately for your viewpoint, the name Zilbermints Benoni has been around since 1995. It is in Eric Schiller's huge tome, Gambit Chess Openings, and on the Internet.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #180 - 06/27/11 at 19:03:17
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Glenn, I'm not sure it is so much an improvement, but his conclusion after 12.Rh3 that black is simply a pawn up seems a little too simplistic to me. White has the bishop pair and the Nh5 cannot easily get back into play - I feel white has enough to hold the balance by pressuring on the queenside. If not then I think there is some scope for improvement in the line with 10.Ne2 Bf5 11.Bh6 Bxh6 12.Qxh6 Ng4 13.Qf4, though I cannot say I have any specific improvements here - just a gut feeling that white has something.

Markovich, I don't claim the games to be overwhelming evidence at all... but for a meagre 2000 FIDE player to be getting so many crushing wins against higher-rated opponents, in all manner of lines, suggests things are not simple. I am one of those who doubts the gambit's theoretical worth, but I think that it is worth exploring further to find out. I certainly wont blindly sing its praises after some bullet games.

I have to confess I am not convinced by this "Long Bogo" line... seems like I'm playing a h-pawn hack where I do not have my pawn on f3 where I would like it. I accept the open f-file gives alternate attacking options, but I think if black avoids castling the compensation cant be enough. I'd rather try to rescue the Studier before I resort to that!
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #179 - 06/27/11 at 18:03:38
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SWJediknight wrote on 06/27/11 at 17:48:38:
I think White definitely has enough compensation in that particular line, a conclusion supported by the book


...but doubted by Glenn Flear in the Yearbook.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #178 - 06/27/11 at 17:48:38
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The main gap in the book is probably the "Long Bogo" lines of the 5...g6 variation where Black does not automatically castle kingside (6.Bf4 Bg7 7.Qd2 0-0 8.0-0-0).  I think White definitely has enough compensation in that particular line, a conclusion supported by the book, but there is a lot of unexplored territory where Black chooses to leave the king in the centre a la Pirc Defence, and while White clearly has compensation there too, it's debatable whether it is enough.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #177 - 06/27/11 at 14:36:29
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Gambit wrote on 06/27/11 at 01:51:00:
The lines I play and invent are not exactly standard chess. For example, the Zilbermints Benoni, 1 d4 c5 2 Nf3 cxd4 3 b4! or the Zilbermints Grob Gambit, 1 g4 d5 2 e4 dxe4 3 Nc3!

The same unorthodox approach applies to the lines invented by me in the BDG.


Again, the name should be Zilbermints Anti-Benoni. Benoni structures only arise when White meets Black's ...c5 with d4-d5. Your line is something else entirely.
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #176 - 06/27/11 at 12:31:12
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CraigEvans wrote on 06/26/11 at 15:54:37:
Afternoon all,

Have been away playing quite a bit of correspondence chess recently, concentrating almost solely on the BDG as white. So far my statistics are +16, =3, -1 with two games ongoing which I think are winning.

Albeit some of these results are against weaker players, but I would suggest they are significant nonetheless. My record against (chess.com) >2000 players is +6, =3, -1, and that one loss came when I tried the main 8.Be3 in the Teichmann (whereas I have scored almost 100% with the Seidel-Hall 8.g4!)

This practice is suggesting that the BDG is fully viable even at these longer time controls as long as white is clued up (of course, database and book access makes this much easier!) - a conclusion which even I am surprised at.



Your results would much better support your conclusion had they been acheived on www,iccf-webchess.com or lss.chess-server.net.  Competition on those sites is quite fierce, and opening ideas usually recieve a severe theoretical test.  Your may be right for all I know, but I don't think that results achieved on informal sites like chess.com or even net-chess.com are very convincing evidence.
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #175 - 06/27/11 at 01:51:00
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The lines I play and invent are not exactly standard chess. For example, the Zilbermints Benoni, 1 d4 c5 2 Nf3 cxd4 3 b4! or the Zilbermints Grob Gambit, 1 g4 d5 2 e4 dxe4 3 Nc3!

The same unorthodox approach applies to the lines invented by me in the BDG.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #174 - 06/26/11 at 22:16:35
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Gambit wrote on 06/26/11 at 21:59:33:
Glenn Snow wrote on 06/26/11 at 18:35:08:
Nice wein's Craig.  I think 5...c6 is a very good me as well but as I mentioned on one of these BDG threads I can't find complete compensation after 5...g6.  Certainly a lot of pitfalls are presented for Black but I think he has the upper hand with best play.  You played the old main-line with Bc4 in the game above, did you have an improvement ready over Christoph's analysis?


I have played against 5...g6 with 6 Bc4 Bg7 7 00 00 8 h3! the Studier-Zilbermints Attack on both the Internet Chess Club and tournament games. Also, I tried out the older Studier Attack after 7 00 00 8 Qe1, with mostly successful practice. Even 6 Bf4 Bg7 7 Qd2 00 8 000 has been tried by me on ICC.

With regard to the sneaky 5...c6, I have playrf 6 a3!? here with some degree of success. I also tried transposing into the Alchemy Variation after 6 Bc4 Bf5 7 00 e6 8 Ng5, with good results.


I've played all of the above myself in blitz games with success (excepting a3 which I haven't looked at) and I'm sure OTB and apparently correspondence as well they can be successful.  However, it bothers me to play something that I know if they've looked at that lines I've looked at that I'm going to be struggling for a draw with the White pieces no less.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #173 - 06/26/11 at 21:59:33
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Glenn Snow wrote on 06/26/11 at 18:35:08:
Nice wein's Craig.  I think 5...c6 is a very good me as well but as I mentioned on one of these BDG threads I can't find complete compensation after 5...g6.  Certainly a lot of pitfalls are presented for Black but I think he has the upper hand with best play.  You played the old main-line with Bc4 in the game above, did you have an improvement ready over Christoph's analysis?


I have played against 5...g6 with 6 Bc4 Bg7 7 00 00 8 h3! the Studier-Zilbermints Attack on both the Internet Chess Club and tournament games. Also, I tried out the older Studier Attack after 7 00 00 8 Qe1, with mostly successful practice. Even 6 Bf4 Bg7 7 Qd2 00 8 000 has been tried by me on ICC.

With regard to the sneaky 5...c6, I have playrf 6 a3!? here with some degree of success. I also tried transposing into the Alchemy Variation after 6 Bc4 Bf5 7 00 e6 8 Ng5, with good results.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #172 - 06/26/11 at 18:35:08
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Nice wein's Craig.  I think 5...c6 is a very good me as well but as I mentioned on one of these BDG threads I can't find complete compensation after 5...g6.  Certainly a lot of pitfalls are presented for Black but I think he has the upper hand with best play.  You played the old main-line with Bc4 in the game above, did you have an improvement ready over Christoph's analysis?
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #171 - 06/26/11 at 15:54:37
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Afternoon all,

Have been away playing quite a bit of correspondence chess recently, concentrating almost solely on the BDG as white. So far my statistics are +16, =3, -1 with two games ongoing which I think are winning.

Albeit some of these results are against weaker players, but I would suggest they are significant nonetheless. My record against (chess.com) >2000 players is +6, =3, -1, and that one loss came when I tried the main 8.Be3 in the Teichmann (whereas I have scored almost 100% with the Seidel-Hall 8.g4!)

This practice is suggesting that the BDG is fully viable even at these longer time controls as long as white is clued up (of course, database and book access makes this much easier!) - a conclusion which even I am surprised at.

A couple of the nicer games:

[White "CEV"]
[Black ""Tonsijbrands""]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D00"]
[WhiteElo "2032"]
[BlackElo "2258"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. f3 d5 3. e4 dxe4 4. Nc3 exf3 5. Nxf3 Bg4 6. h3 Bd7 [A rare move, but the second time I have faced it] 7. Bd3 e6 8. O-O Be7 9. Be3 Nc6 10. a3 O-O 11. Qe1 Nd5 12. Nxd5 exd5 13. Bf4 Rc8 14. Qg3 Be6 15. Bh6 Bf6 16. Ne5 Nxe5 17. dxe5 Bxe5 18. Qxe5 gxh6 19. Rf6 Qd6 20. Qh5 Qg3 21. Rxh6 Rfe8 22. Rf1 Qe3+ 23. Kh1 Kf8 24. Rxh7 Ke7 25. Bg6 Kd6 26. Bxf7 Bxf7 27. Qxf7 Qe4 28. Qd7+ Kc5 29. b4+ 1-0

[White "CEV"]
[Black "Levimitch"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D00"]
[BlackElo "1951"]

1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 Bg4 6. h3 Bxf3 7. Qxf3 c6 8. g4 e6 9. g5 Nd5 10. Bd3 Be7 11. h4 Nb4 12. Be4 Qxd4 13. Be3 Qe5 14. O-O-O O-O 15. Bd4 Qa5 16. Bxh7+ Kxh7 17. Qh5+ Kg8 18. Bxg7 Kxg7 19. Qh6+ Kg8 20. g6 1-0

[White "CEV"]
[Black ""callisto64""]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D00"]
[BlackElo "2163"]

1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 g6 6. Bc4 Bg7 7. O-O O-O 8. Qe1 Bf5 9. Qh4 Bxc2 10. Bh6 Bxh6 11. Qxh6 Bf5 12. h3 b5 13. Nxb5 Nc6 14. g4 Na5 15. Be2 a6 16. Nc3 Bxg4 17. hxg4 Nxg4 18. Qf4 Nf6 19. b4 Nc6 20. d5 Nxd5 21. Nxd5 Qxd5 22. Rfd1 Qh5 23. Kf2 e5 24. Qe4 Nd4 25. Nxd4 Qh2+ 26. Qg2 Qh4+ 27. Qg3 Qxg3+ 28. Kxg3 exd4 29. Rxd4 Rfe8 30. Bf3 Rab8 31. Rc1 Re7 32. a4 h5 33. a5
Rb5 34. Rc6 Kg7 35. Rxa6 c5 36. bxc5 Rxc5 37. Rd3 Ree5 38. Ra3 Kh6 39. Ra7 Kg5 40. a6 Ra5 41. Rxa5 Rxa5 42. Be2 f5 43. Rf7 h4+ 44. Kf3 Ra3+ 45. Kf2 Kf4 46. a7 g5 47. Bb5 g4 48. Bc6 g3+ 49. Ke2 Ra2+ 50. Kd3 h3 51. a8=Q Rxa8 52. Bxa8 g2 53. Rg7 Ke5 54. Ke3 1-0

The best thing seems to be the wide range of possible defences - people trawling through databses seem to continually get lost in the variations and choose inferior ones. Still, I'm becoming more and more of the opinion that the BDG offers chances to fight for an advantage - though, of course, there are lines which probably equalise for black. Strangely only one person has tried 5...c6 against me so far (and fell for a Rxf5 trick) - this has to be the acid test of the line.
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #170 - 06/21/11 at 17:10:29
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Yesterday I won the Gerry D'Alessio Memorial Tournament in Ridgewood, NJ, with 2.5/3 points. It was a three-round event, with one game every Monday. As I could not play the first game, I took a half-point bye in the first round. The second game I easily won. But it was the last game which gave me undisputed first place. Here is the game score.

By the way, is 6 Bd3 a common move against the Gunderam? Somehow, I don't think so...

Zilbermintz - Sergio Flores (1950)
Ridgewood, New Jersey
20 June 2011

1 d4 d5 2 e4 dxe4 3 Nc3 Bf5

The Zeller Defense

4 f3 exf3 5 Nxf3 a6 6 a4 e6 7 Bd3 Bxd3 8 Qxd3 h6 9 00 Nf6 10 Be3 Be7

This can transpose from the Gunderam Defense via 1 d4 d5 2 e4 dxe4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 exf3 5 Nxf3 Bf5 6 Bd3 Bxd3 7 Qxd3 a6 8 a4 e6 9 00 h6 10 Be3 Be7

11 Rad1 00 12 h3 Nbd7 13 Qd2 Nh7 14 d5 exd5?

Better was 14...e5

15 Qxd5 Bd6 16 Qxb7 Re8 17 Bd4 Ng5 18 Nxg5 Qxg5 19 Ne4 Qe7 20 Rfe1 Qf8

Here the computer gives 21 Bxg7! winning a pawn. Truthfully, I briefly looked at that move, but could not see the follow-up. Anyway, I decided on the text move, that being...

21 Nxd6 Qxd6 22 Be3 Qg3?  23 Bf2! Rxe1+ 24 Bxe1! Qe3+ 25 Bf2! Qe8 26 Rxd7! Qxd7 27 Qxa8 Kh7 28 Qxa6 Qd1+ 29 Kh2 Qxc2 30 Bd4 c5 31 Qc6 c4 32 Bc3 Qb3 33 Qb5 Qd1 34 a5 Qf1 35 Qe5 f6 36 Qe4+ Kg8 37 a6, Black resigns.

Since the other leaders ended their games drawn, I ended up with first place.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #169 - 06/08/11 at 20:07:05
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Chris, why did not you try 5 g4 Bg6 6 h4, the Gunderam Attack, or 5 Bg5, the Polish Attack? I have played both with success.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #168 - 06/08/11 at 05:04:39
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Actually I wanted to play 23 c3 and only after 23...a5 I wanted to play 24 b4 - But then I made the second move before the first one Shocked
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #167 - 06/07/11 at 12:55:57
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I've just noticed this game in TWIC 861



22 a3, 23 b4 looked a bit insane Cheesy, but I guess it was just equal before that.
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #166 - 06/03/11 at 12:10:29
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Matemax wrote on 06/01/11 at 05:49:24:
May 2011 - A month to remember, finally he has done it

I enjoyed the update, and would like to see some more BDG updates soon.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #165 - 06/03/11 at 05:00:03
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Hopefully Tim Sawyer's Blackmar-Diemer Keybook IV will be coming out in a timely fashion next year!
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #164 - 06/01/11 at 05:49:24
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May 2011 - A month to remember, finally he has done it - I am lighting the pipes of peace and say "Thank you!"
Smiley Smiley
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #163 - 03/03/11 at 21:09:49
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The book came out in February 2011. I bought my copy at the United States Amateur Team East on February 20.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #162 - 12/09/10 at 05:50:02
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As for Everyman's BDG book, I will believe it when I see it published.

[Game challenge redacted by Markovich.  Use a PM to issue a challenge, Lev.]
« Last Edit: 12/09/10 at 17:54:27 by Markovich »  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #161 - 12/08/10 at 23:15:18
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Markovic is right. I'm sorry for my off-topic posts. As for the book now, are you sure that it will be out eventually? Wink
  
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Re: Re:
Reply #160 - 12/08/10 at 19:24:42
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 12/08/10 at 14:26:05:
I've deleted that post as well.

It was a specific reply in this thread – whereas leaving it up as a stand-alone makes it seem like a diatribe on CC, which was never what was intended.


I thought it stood well enough on its own, but that is your privilege.   In any case, its context would have been missing here as well, once I deleted a whole series of posts from which it sprang.
  

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Re:
Reply #159 - 12/08/10 at 14:26:05
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I've deleted that post as well.

It was a specific reply in this thread – whereas leaving it up as a stand-alone makes it seem like a diatribe on CC, which was never what was intended.
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #158 - 12/08/10 at 13:05:33
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Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic.

Which means, Jon Tait's lucid post on computers in CC, in reply to Lev. 

I have also deleted a slew of recent posts of the I-will-beat-you variety.  Posts of that kind have no place in a forum devoted to chess theory.  Will everyone who wants to thump on his chest about who he can beat please do so either in private messages, in General Chess, or wherever?  I don't care which.  The same goes for issuing challenges.

I also deleted one or two posts from Lev ranting about the lateness of Christoph's book.  The subject was all right, but the tone was immoderate.
« Last Edit: 12/08/10 at 19:15:28 by Markovich »  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #157 - 12/03/10 at 05:05:39
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Yes, it's true, since it's on the "coming soon list" ... at least Feb 2011 : http://www.everymanchess.com/chess/books/The_Blackmar-Diemer_Gambit%3A_A_modern_...
Ok, now let's see if it has been updated ... it was supposed to be published in 12/2009 !
I hope this book is like wine !  Wink
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #156 - 12/01/10 at 08:29:59
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Beetlejuice wrote on 10/02/10 at 15:59:11:


it's currently with the typesetter
you shouldn't have to wait too long now Smiley
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #155 - 10/02/10 at 15:59:11
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #154 - 08/21/10 at 21:23:49
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Herr Wisnewski, this is outrageous procrastination on the part of the editors! They are procrastinating idiots who don't know one thing about responsibility. As someone who was Executive Editor of a weekly student newspaper, I know firsthand about meeting deadlines. This kind of procrastination would have had an employee fired a long time ago at our paper.

These so-called Everyman editors should stop keeping the back of a chair warm and do some work. The way they treat your manuscript is disrespectful, ignorant, asininely stupid and just plain un-journalistic! Who do these false editors think they are, the Emperors of China? No, they are just as human as you and me. And that means they have a responsibility to uphold!

I seriously believe you should pull the contract and give your final version to a better company, such as Doubleday, McKay, or Russell Enterprises. Everyman just plain stinks, to put it diplomatically.

Of course there are 4-letter words to call them, but this is not the place for that, so I won't. However, my plain language more than conveys my feelings about the delayed BDG book. I am probably not the only one who feels that way.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #153 - 08/21/10 at 14:14:15
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To be honest, I don't know anything more about the book's progress than you do.

Fact is, I handed in my final draft a long time ago, but there seems to be a problem in the editing process.

Suffice it to say, that I will most certainly have to revise it when I get the edited version...  Huh
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #152 - 08/19/10 at 18:47:30
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 08/19/10 at 12:32:49:
Stigma wrote on 07/24/10 at 00:23:15:

We've already been waiting a year for his promised BDG update on ChessPublishing!! Roll Eyes


Not that I'm especially interested in the BDG, but maybe you should ask ArKheiN (if he's still here?) to do the update instead?
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #151 - 08/19/10 at 12:32:49
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Stigma wrote on 07/24/10 at 00:23:15:

We've already been waiting a year for his promised BDG update on ChessPublishing!! Roll Eyes
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #150 - 07/24/10 at 00:23:15
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #149 - 07/24/10 at 00:08:47
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Will this book EVER come out??????????????  Any idea guys??
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #148 - 06/04/10 at 19:41:34
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Actually, the Counterstrike Variation, 9...c5, against the Zilbermints Gambit in the Euwe Defense, leads to some very interesting tactics. I will post more once I get back from Boston. However, I won quite a few games with White in this line.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #147 - 06/04/10 at 10:47:51
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Hummmm. Just maybe.

The thing he says about people preemptively dodging main lines into bad systems and getting crushed is also very true however.

Very easy to get a free point in something like the English attack. Don't have a bad game if playing theory either Smiley
(all only true up to a certain level of course.).
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #146 - 06/04/10 at 10:26:09
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I don't agree entirely with Dennis Monokroussos.  The analysis fails to take into account what Tim McGrew calls the "Caltrop Coefficient", i.e. where one side faces somewhat more pitfalls than the other and the payback for one side deviating from correct play is greater than the other.  In many gambits, it is genuinely easier for the defender to go wrong than the attacker at club level.  The question of whether it is better to start with main lines from an early stage depends on whether the player has strong aspirations to become a GM.

Btw I think 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 deserves "?!", not "??", and I think the same of 1.d4 e5 which is sometimes given a "?".  Both of those openings are often met with harmless replies in OTB games, and lead to an assessment somewhere in the region of += to +/- with best play, not +- as Dennis gives for the Latvian.

An example of an "?" opening is the Jerome Gambit (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.Bxf7+) which is at least -/+ with best play and probably more.

8.0-0 in the Euwe Defence to the BDG has quite a good caltrop coefficient, better than the Ryder Gambit (5.Qxf3) but I've seen nothing to challenge my view that its objective worth is somewhere between =+ and -/+ after 9...c6 or 9...c5.  I think it probably deserves "?!" as well.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #145 - 06/04/10 at 10:10:39
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Gambit wrote on 06/04/10 at 04:39:11:
Some interesting comments in that blog, but very little about the BDG.

It didn't occur to you that Monokroussos' comments might apply to your Zilbermints Gambits, including 8.0-0, which you give an underserved exclam?
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #144 - 06/04/10 at 04:39:11
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Some interesting comments in that blog, but very little about the BDG. Also 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 f5 3 Ne5 Qf6! has been played for centuries. Don't know why Monokroussos  gives 2...f5 to question marks. I win with it in OTB tournaments.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #143 - 06/04/10 at 02:24:29
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Gambit wrote on 06/02/10 at 20:30:42:
Try the Zilbermints Gambit against 7...Nc6 !

I think this provides an excellent answer.

http://www.thechessmind.net/blog/2010/6/2/only-defenders-have-it-tough.html#comm...

Don't bother to react, LDZ, I already know that you think sceptic and fool are synonyms.
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #142 - 06/02/10 at 20:30:42
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Where have you been? After 1 d4 d5 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 ef3 5 Nxf3 e6 6 Bg5 Be7 7 Bd3 Nc6 8 00! Nxd4 9 Kh1 is the Zilbermints Gambit. I assure you, BDGLover, while it is true computers may have all the answers, in a tournament game you cannot use them!
The last tournament game I played, Zilbermints-Tica, 2010, saw White win convincingly. My point is simply that unlike in the Ryder Gambit (5 Qxf3) there are more opportunities for Black to go wrong.

Try the Zilbermints Gambit against 7...Nc6 !
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #141 - 06/02/10 at 00:24:01
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motörhead wrote on 06/01/10 at 22:18:59:
Well, I think that 7...c5 is may be not the best. Literature gives 7...Nc6. Stefan Bücker's Kaissiber 8 gives it and concludes difficulties for Black after 8.a3 and equal but drawish play after 8.Qd2.
So White has to proof that he can develop some initiative after 7...Nc6. That is the test for 7.Bd3.


BDG Lover wrote on 06/01/10 at 23:00:10:
It is true that 8...Nc6 does not lead to much for White,

That's what I call a convincing answer. Why discuss 7...Nc6 if 7...c5 8.dxc5 Nc6 9.Qd2 leads to an edge for White?

Look, BDGL, I am with many others very grateful for all the lines you provided. Still my instinct tells me that they somehow won't affect the evaluation of 7...Nc6. So you might begin to wonder if your quest is headed into the right direction. Wink
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #140 - 06/01/10 at 23:00:10
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It is true that 8...Nc6 does not lead to much for White, but i still feel that white has an edge in most lines, for example;
1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 e6 6.
Bg5 Be7 7. Bd3 c5 8. dxc5 Nc6 9. Qd2 O-O 10. O-O-O Qa5 11. Bxf6 Bxf6 12. Ne4 Qxd2+ 13. Rxd2 e5 14. Re1 Bg4 15. h3 Bxf3 16. Nxf6+ gxf6 17. gxf3 Rfd8 18. Rg2+ Kh8 19. Reg1 Rg8 20. c3 Rxg2 21. Rxg2 Rg8 22. Rxg8+ Kxg8 23. Kd2 h6 24. Ke3 Kf8 25. b4 Ke7 26. Ke4 Nd8 27. f4 exf4 28. Kxf4 Ne6+ 29. Kf5 Ng7+ 30. Kg4 Ke6 31. Bc4+ Ke7  with a winning postion.
One other line might go

1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 e6 6.
Bg5 Be7 7. Bd3 c5? 8. dxc5! Nc6! 9. Qd2 Bxc5 0-O-O Be7 11. Bxf6 Bxf6 12. Ne4 e5 13.Nxf6+ Qxf6 14. Rhf1 Qe7 15. Ng5 f6 (15... h6 16. Nxf7 O-O 17. Nxh6+!! and it is all over  gxh6 18. Qxh6 Qg7 19. Bh7+ Kh8 20. Rxf8+ winning) 16. Bxh7 Bg4 17. Bg6+ Kf8 18. Qd5 Rd8 19.Qc4 Rxd1+ 20. Rxd1 Bxd1 21. Ne6+ Kg8 22. Ng5+ Draw.  Black had to play very well to earn the draw. The quest continues Cool





  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #139 - 06/01/10 at 22:18:59
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BDG Lover wrote on 06/01/10 at 21:31:01:
Sorry guys for my last post, bit tried because of work!! Smiley
The line i was talking about was;
1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 e6 6.
Bg5 Be7 7. Bd3 c5? 8. dxc5! Nc6 9. Qd2 O-O 10. O-O-O Qa5 11. Bxf6 Bxf6 12. Ne4
Qxd2+ 13. Rxd2 Be7  , with a clean advantage to white.

One other line could go;

1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 e6 6.
Bg5 Be7 7. Bd3 c5? 8. dxc5! O-O ! 9. Qe2 Nbd7 10. O-O-O Qa5 11. Bc4 Nxc5 12. Ne5 h6 13. Bd2
Qc7 14. Bf4 Qb6 15. h4 Nfd7  , with equal chances.

One last line might go;

1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 e6 6.
Bg5 Be7 7. Bd3 c5? 8. dxc5! Bxc5  9. Qd2 O-O 10. O-O-O Nbd7 11. Kb1! Qa5 12. Qe2 h6 13. Bh4 a6 14. Rhf1 Rd8 15. Ne4 Be7 16. Nxf6+ Bxf6?? this move loses very quickly (16... Nxf6 better, but black still looks bad 17. Ne5 Qc7 18. g4! b5 19. g5 hxg5 20. Bxg5 Bb7 21. Rg1 Rd5 22. Rde1 Rad8 23.  now black gets mashed Nxf7! Rxd3 24. cxd3 Kxf7 25. Qxe6+ Kf8 26. Bh6!! Rd6 27. Bxg7+ Ke8 28. Qe5) 17. Qe4 g6 18.
Bxf6 Nxf6 19. Qf4 Kg7 20. Ne5  and it is all over.

Now as always with analysis, one can find better moves, but i think i have proved that in Tom Pursers BDG pages { article called " hard times"  5 th of April 2010}  7..c5 followed by 8.Qd2 is simply wrong, 8.dc is much better.
I love Toms web site, but on this point i have to say that " Hard Times" ??? I think not. Cool



Well, I think that 7...c5 is may be not the best. Literature gives 7...Nc6. Stefan Bücker's Kaissiber 8 gives it and concludes difficulties for Black after 8.a3 and equal but drawish play after 8.Qd2.
So White has to proof that he can develop some initiative after 7...Nc6. That is the test for 7.Bd3.
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #138 - 06/01/10 at 21:31:01
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Sorry guys for my last post, bit tried because of work!! Smiley
The line i was talking about was;
1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 e6 6.
Bg5 Be7 7. Bd3 c5? 8. dxc5! Nc6 9. Qd2 O-O 10. O-O-O Qa5 11. Bxf6 Bxf6 12. Ne4
Qxd2+ 13. Rxd2 Be7  , with a clean advantage to white.

One other line could go;

1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 e6 6.
Bg5 Be7 7. Bd3 c5? 8. dxc5! O-O ! 9. Qe2 Nbd7 10. O-O-O Qa5 11. Bc4 Nxc5 12. Ne5 h6 13. Bd2
Qc7 14. Bf4 Qb6 15. h4 Nfd7  , with equal chances.

One last line might go;

1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 e6 6.
Bg5 Be7 7. Bd3 c5? 8. dxc5! Bxc5  9. Qd2 O-O 10. O-O-O Nbd7 11. Kb1! Qa5 12. Qe2 h6 13. Bh4 a6 14. Rhf1 Rd8 15. Ne4 Be7 16. Nxf6+ Bxf6?? this move loses very quickly (16... Nxf6 better, but black still looks bad 17. Ne5 Qc7 18. g4! b5 19. g5 hxg5 20. Bxg5 Bb7 21. Rg1 Rd5 22. Rde1 Rad8 23.  now black gets mashed Nxf7! Rxd3 24. cxd3 Kxf7 25. Qxe6+ Kf8 26. Bh6!! Rd6 27. Bxg7+ Ke8 28. Qe5) 17. Qe4 g6 18.
Bxf6 Nxf6 19. Qf4 Kg7 20. Ne5  and it is all over.

Now as always with analysis, one can find better moves, but i think i have proved that in Tom Pursers BDG pages { article called " hard times"  5 th of April 2010}  7..c5 followed by 8.Qd2 is simply wrong, 8.dc is much better.
I love Toms web site, but on this point i have to say that " Hard Times" ??? I think not. Cool



  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #137 - 05/26/10 at 19:50:39
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MNb wrote on 05/26/10 at 14:52:23:
BDG Lover wrote on 05/26/10 at 12:08:57:
Just a short note, but i have found that 8 cd is a better move than 8 Qd2 in the Euwe Defence. Tom's pages are fun and useful though. Smiley


I would like to agree. Still I think 8 cd will not become very popular, perhaps because of 8.. ed.


Undecided
Cheesy
May anybody be so kind to give me a hint on the first seven moves. The white steps are close to detectability. But the black...
Otherwise I would like to suggest 10.hg which seems to push Black into darkness our have I missed sth?

  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #136 - 05/26/10 at 14:52:23
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BDG Lover wrote on 05/26/10 at 12:08:57:
Just a short note, but i have found that 8 cd is a better move than 8 Qd2 in the Euwe Defence. Tom's pages are fun and useful though. Smiley


I would like to agree. Still I think 8 cd will not become very popular, perhaps because of 8.. ed.
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #135 - 05/26/10 at 12:08:57
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Just a short note, but i have found that 8 cd is a better move than 8 Qd2 in the Euwe Defence. Tom's pages are fun and useful though. Smiley
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #134 - 05/25/10 at 13:19:05
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motörhead wrote on 05/18/10 at 21:02:03:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/18/10 at 18:56:18:
SWJediknight wrote on 05/18/10 at 17:50:58:
I recall that after 4.Bg5, many lines transposed to lines of the Staunton Gambit that would normally arise via 4.Bg5 with Black's 4th move met by 5.f3 d5.

Yes, 4.f3 Nf6 5.fxe4 fxe4 6.Bg5 Bf5 is a Staunton Gambit, but a line which in the move-order 1.d4 f5 2.e4 Black wouldn't get often and may well be a shade better for Black. And 4.Bg5 Nf6 5.f3 Nc6 6.d5 Nb4 doesn't exactly transpose (7.fxe4 Nxe4! or 7.Bxf6 exf6). In both cases it isn't obvious to me that White equalizes.


I agree. when I first came across that 3...f5 stuff I thought it to be somehow loosening. But a closer look shows that this d...d pawn on e4 is a lasting spanner in white's work. And Black can easiely proceed in a Leningrad style with g7-g6 etc. I wasn't to deep in it but it looks annoying somehow.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/18/10 at 18:56:18:
I admit that it isn't much for Black, but is there a more promising line against the BDG?


On practical reasons this is the more important question to me. You have to be fond of Dutch ways if you play 3...f5. Not to familiar to many black players. So usually white will more often see 3...Nf6 (or 3...Bf5).
Btw. Is it agreed that white gets at least nearly enough play for the pawn in the BDG accepted?
As I read Tom Purser sees "hard times" for the BDG accepted.
(http://bdgpages.blogspot.com/2010_04_01_archive.html)
My feeling is that
  • the Euwe (after a closer look) is nearly okay for white (with Qd2; in variations with Bd3 Nb8-c6 or c7-c5 at the right time are problematic in my eyes)
  • the Teichmann can't be to much of a problem (no closer look yet).
  • the Bogoljubov posed problems to my pupils there is quite a lot of energy directed to d4. It seems as if white has to play it with 0-0-0 and an assault on the king's side. But I'm not sure yet abaout it. Is  there enough play or will white get in trouble after a counter attack in the center...
  • in the Alchemy or Gunderam there is at least lot of unclear trouble with active play for white so that seems to be playable.


The forum seems to disagree about the Alchemy being equal. It doesn't appear to be unclear at all. Black has no weakness and a solid position - a pawn up.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #133 - 05/18/10 at 21:02:03
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/18/10 at 18:56:18:
SWJediknight wrote on 05/18/10 at 17:50:58:
I recall that after 4.Bg5, many lines transposed to lines of the Staunton Gambit that would normally arise via 4.Bg5 with Black's 4th move met by 5.f3 d5.

Yes, 4.f3 Nf6 5.fxe4 fxe4 6.Bg5 Bf5 is a Staunton Gambit, but a line which in the move-order 1.d4 f5 2.e4 Black wouldn't get often and may well be a shade better for Black. And 4.Bg5 Nf6 5.f3 Nc6 6.d5 Nb4 doesn't exactly transpose (7.fxe4 Nxe4! or 7.Bxf6 exf6). In both cases it isn't obvious to me that White equalizes.


I agree. when I first came across that 3...f5 stuff I thought it to be somehow loosening. But a closer look shows that this d...d pawn on e4 is a lasting spanner in white's work. And Black can easiely proceed in a Leningrad style with g7-g6 etc. I wasn't to deep in it but it looks annoying somehow.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/18/10 at 18:56:18:
I admit that it isn't much for Black, but is there a more promising line against the BDG?


On practical reasons this is the more important question to me. You have to be fond of Dutch ways if you play 3...f5. Not to familiar to many black players. So usually white will more often see 3...Nf6 (or 3...Bf5).
Btw. Is it agreed that white gets at least nearly enough play for the pawn in the BDG accepted?
As I read Tom Purser sees "hard times" for the BDG accepted.
(http://bdgpages.blogspot.com/2010_04_01_archive.html)
My feeling is that
  • the Euwe (after a closer look) is nearly okay for white (with Qd2; in variations with Bd3 Nb8-c6 or c7-c5 at the right time are problematic in my eyes)
  • the Teichmann can't be to much of a problem (no closer look yet).
  • the Bogoljubov posed problems to my pupils there is quite a lot of energy directed to d4. It seems as if white has to play it with 0-0-0 and an assault on the king's side. But I'm not sure yet abaout it. Is  there enough play or will white get in trouble after a counter attack in the center...
  • in the Alchemy or Gunderam there is at least lot of unclear trouble with active play for white so that seems to be playable.
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #132 - 05/18/10 at 18:56:18
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SWJediknight wrote on 05/18/10 at 17:50:58:
I recall that after 4.Bg5, many lines transposed to lines of the Staunton Gambit that would normally arise via 4.Bg5 with Black's 4th move met by 5.f3 d5.

Yes, 4.f3 Nf6 5.fxe4 fxe4 6.Bg5 Bf5 is a Staunton Gambit, but a line which in the move-order 1.d4 f5 2.e4 Black wouldn't get often and may well be a shade better for Black. And 4.Bg5 Nf6 5.f3 Nc6 6.d5 Nb4 doesn't exactly transpose (7.fxe4 Nxe4! or 7.Bxf6 exf6). In both cases it isn't obvious to me that White equalizes. I admit that it isn't much for Black, but is there a more promising line against the BDG?

Edit: In the last line, both 7.Bc4 = and 7.Qe2!? look OK, so it seems that 3...f5 isn't really better than 3...Bf5 and some other moves.
« Last Edit: 05/18/10 at 20:53:17 by Stefan Buecker »  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #131 - 05/18/10 at 17:50:58
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The idea 3...f5!? was discussed in a fairly recent thread on here:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1231025114/45
It can also arise via 1.d4 f5 2.Nc3 d5 3.e4 dxe4.

It's certainly a lot better than it first appears.  I recall that after 4.Bg5, many lines transposed to lines of the Staunton Gambit that would normally arise via 4.Bg5 with Black's 4th move met by 5.f3 d5.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #130 - 05/17/10 at 23:32:26
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motörhead wrote on 05/17/10 at 20:31:44:
What is the most dangerous variation against the BDG?
As I saw in Kaissiber, the Euwe-Defence is solid but not too dangerous, or?

In Kaissiber 1998 I preferred the O'Kelly, but the aggressive 3...f5 was close. I intend to check it again, once the new BDG book is out.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #129 - 05/17/10 at 22:42:12
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In the Bogoljubov I prefer Bogoljubov's original idea Bg5 followed by Qd2 and 0-0-0 (Bf4 probably leads to similar play) to the standard "Studier Attack" with 6.Bc4 Bg7 7.0-0 0-0 8.Qe1- partly due to my general preference for castling long in the BDG (the idea of long castling has also helped revive a number of lines theoretically), and partly because the Black fianchetto makes ideas of h2-h4-h5 more potent.  But even 6.Bc4 seemed in decent shape last time I checked, so I don't think 5...g6 is critical.

5...Bg4 is usually met by 6.h3, and then if 6...Bxf3 7.Qxf3 c6 then White gets decent chances with 8.g4 or 8.Qf2 or 8.Be3.  Or 6...Bh5 7.g4 Bg6 8.Ne5 c6 9.h4! gives decent compensation.

The most critical test at the moment seems to be 5...Bf5, after which I agreed with Stefan Bücker that 6.Bd3 is probably the best response, an idea borrowed from the Soller Gambit.  After 6...Bxd3 7.Qxd3 White gets a long lead in development but it's a question of how to convert it into something tangible- many of us (myself included) thought White had enough for the pawn in the critical lines, albeit no more, but there were some including Markovich who suspected an edge for Black.   6...Bg6 7.Bxg6 hxg6 didn't work for Black.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #128 - 05/17/10 at 20:31:44
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/17/10 at 11:53:52:
After 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e4, Tartakower preferred 3...dxe4 to 3...Nxe4, the move from Hübsch's game. I am inclined to agree, but 3...Nxe4 cannot be much worse than the BDG.


That may well be.
But overall: What is the most dangerous variation against the BDG?

As I saw in Kaissiber, the Euwe-Defence is solid but not too dangerous, or? I had a closer look at it and think White gets a nice game...

The O'Kelly too seems to be playable for White after all (was discussed here in depth an there was Stefan's chesscafé-article).

So what?
The Teichmann? If yes, what is the critical variation?
The Bogoljubov?  If yes, what is the critical variation? (There too were some pixels of information on it in Kaissiber prefering 6.Bf4 over 6.Bc4)
Or is it better to decline it?
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #127 - 05/17/10 at 18:17:34
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You could argue that White is "trying to equalise" theoretically in the BDG proper, in the sense that many think it's =+ and fans are trying to prove dynamic equality.

A sample line runs 5.Bf4 e6 6.Qd2 Bd6 7.0-0-0 Nd7 (to meet 8.f3 with 8...Nf6) 8.Ne2 0-0 9.Ng3 (also possible is 9.Nc3 although after 9...Nd5 10.Bxd6 Nxc3 11.Qxc3 cxd6 three pairs of minor pieces have come off - also possible is 9.f3) and now perhaps 10.Bg5.  Black isn't any worse here, but I think White has some practical chances.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #126 - 05/17/10 at 13:16:06
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SWJediknight wrote on 05/17/10 at 09:18:00:
I'm not sure about the Hubsch Gambit, having done fairly well OTB with 4.Nxe4 dxe4 5.Bf4, usually followed by Qd2/Qe2 and 0-0-0 and a kingside pawn roller (especially if Black castles kingside early) plus possibility of d4-d5 in favourable circumstances.  I don't like 5.Bc4 though which gives Black at least a few established ways to reach an equal game.


Okay. I'm going to bite on the Hubsch Gambit remark.

After your 5. Bf4 and then 5...e6 how is white getting anything more than equality at best?

Black can just let white recover the e4 pawn while completing his development, and it still probably wouldn't alter the evaluation of the position as equal.

Sure, this type of thing is likely playable as white, but trying to equalize as white isn't that special.
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #125 - 05/17/10 at 11:53:52
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After 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e4, Tartakower preferred 3...dxe4 to 3...Nxe4, the move from Hübsch's game. I am inclined to agree, but 3...Nxe4 cannot be much worse than the BDG.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #124 - 05/17/10 at 11:24:44
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SWJediknight wrote on 05/17/10 at 09:18:00:
I'm not sure about the Hubsch Gambit, having done fairly well OTB with 4.Nxe4 dxe4 5.Bf4, usually followed by Qd2/Qe2 and 0-0-0 and a kingside pawn roller (especially if Black castles kingside early) plus possibility of d4-d5 in favourable circumstances.  I don't like 5.Bc4 though which gives Black at least a few established ways to reach an equal game.

I'm also not sure that Black has easy ways to decline and equalise (3...e5 4.Nxe4 still leaves White with compensation for a pawn after either 4...exd4 or 4...Qxd4).  Black can "duck out" with a French or Caro-Kann though, which means that the opening may not be appropriate for many non-1.e4 players.


I think White should be very happy to get a main line French or Caro-Kann out of the BDG. Smiley

I could see pawn advances on the kingside working OTB if Black is careless about castling or handling the light-squared bishop, but I really have my doubts about this line. Surely it's worse than the BDG - wouldn't you agree?
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #123 - 05/17/10 at 09:18:00
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I'm not sure about the Hubsch Gambit, having done fairly well OTB with 4.Nxe4 dxe4 5.Bf4, usually followed by Qd2/Qe2 and 0-0-0 and a kingside pawn roller (especially if Black castles kingside early) plus possibility of d4-d5 in favourable circumstances.  I don't like 5.Bc4 though which gives Black at least a few established ways to reach an equal game.

I'm also not sure that Black has easy ways to decline and equalise (3...e5 4.Nxe4 still leaves White with compensation for a pawn after either 4...exd4 or 4...Qxd4).  Black can "duck out" with a French or Caro-Kann though, which means that the opening may not be appropriate for many non-1.e4 players.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #122 - 05/17/10 at 02:46:41
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Gambit wrote on 05/17/10 at 01:46:15:
You contradict yourself, sir. First you say that you would not play the BDG as White, and second, that the Huebsch Gambit is unsound. But if you do not play the BDG, how would you know if the Huebsch Gambit is sound or unsound?


I don't have to play a gambit as White to study it from a Black perspective and develop an opinion. Maybe you are misunderstanding me? I didn't think you liked the Huebsch anyway and I thought you preferred 1.d4 Nf6 2.f3. To elaborate further, I would not play this way as White because I consider 2.f3 d5 3.e4 c5 4.e5 Nfd7 to lead to favorable French structures for Black. Of course, one doesn't have to play the BDG against 1..Nf6, but that is one obstacle in practical play to reaching a proper BDG as White. There are also others for 1..d5 as well. This is simply a reality of the opening, whether I play it as White or not.

My philosophy of the opening is that when I offer the opportunity for my opponent to enter a sharp continuation, I want to be able to punish him if he declines. If he is able to avoid complications with a comfortable game, frankly I feel it defeats the whole purpose of preparing a sharp variation for practical play.
« Last Edit: 05/17/10 at 06:00:44 by ChevyBanginStyle »  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #121 - 05/17/10 at 01:46:15
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You contradict yourself, sir. First you say that you would not play the BDG as White, and second, that the Huebsch Gambit is unsound. But if you do not play the BDG, how would you know if the Huebsch Gambit is sound or unsound?
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #120 - 05/16/10 at 22:32:12
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Reverse wrote on 05/16/10 at 16:18:46:
It seems like most people on this forum are hoping that Scheerer comes up with some brilliant novelty's to keep the gambit alive or revive old lines so that it is completely playable again.  Everyman chess is a company. They know if the publish a book on the blackmar diemer gambit, regardless of the quality, all the BDG fans will buy it.  I doubt the reason that this book is being published has to do with scheerer wanting to publish his new ideas (i doubt there are any groundbreaking ones that make this opening anything but =+).  Everyman and Scheerer are just filling a void in most people's chess library. 

I just don't think anyone should run to the bookstore thinking that this book is going to provide a sound system for white.

What do you guys think?


Before you preemptively attack an author on his work, have you read any of Cristoph Wisnewski's books before? Based on the reputation of his previous works, I consider him to be a diligent and thoughtful author. He has also been active in this forum answering questions about his books. He claims to have put in a lot of work into researching the opening. Have you?

The best recommendations I have seen by OTB titled players nearly always avoid the gambit in its proper form. The recommendations I have seen based on acceptance usually have a significant hole in analysis, probably because they are not familiar with the work of strong correspondence players. This should tell you something.

BTW I would never play the BDG seriously as White. This is mainly because I consider it to be very impractical for my approach to chess. There are also very good practical methods for declining it as well, especially given that the Huebsch Gambit is unsound. Smith-Morra players at least have the respite of transpositions into the c3 Sicilian.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #119 - 05/16/10 at 19:38:37
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I love the BDG and Gambits of the same world. It of constant distraction for me that players keep on saying, " that opening is not sound" , or, with best play black will win!!!   So, it is really enjoyable when i often beat them with these " unsound" openings. As i have said before, i play for the love of the game, the "open" game. On the the playchess.com site i have reached { with slow play, say 30 mins each with a 15 sec inc} at rating above 2200. I am more that happy with that kind of rating. Smiley
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #118 - 05/16/10 at 16:18:46
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It seems like most people on this forum are hoping that Scheerer comes up with some brilliant novelty's to keep the gambit alive or revive old lines so that it is completely playable again.  Everyman chess is a company. They know if the publish a book on the blackmar diemer gambit, regardless of the quality, all the BDG fans will buy it.  I doubt the reason that this book is being published has to do with scheerer wanting to publish his new ideas (i doubt there are any groundbreaking ones that make this opening anything but =+).  Everyman and Scheerer are just filling a void in most people's chess library. 

I just don't think anyone should run to the bookstore thinking that this book is going to provide a sound system for white.

What do you guys think?
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #117 - 05/15/10 at 23:37:45
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I agree with the point about variation trees- my preference in openings books has always been the "variation trees" type of approach.  I always find it harder with the "illustrative games" approach to find where particular lines are located, for example.

I'm not sure that MNb has claimed that Black emerges from the BDG a clear pawn up- perhaps just with regards some of Gambit's pet sidelines?   The analysis I've been involved in with other contributors has suggested that there is no way for Black to emerge a clear pawn up- Black is certainly no worse in a number of the lines, but even proving a small edge for Black is tricky.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #116 - 05/15/10 at 23:17:49
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I have played the BDG for years, but my believe in this opening is probably closer to Mnb's than tafl. With accurate play black will neutralize white's short term advantages and be a clear pawn up. Now a pawn advantage doesn't always win, but it sure scores well. In the thematic BDG correspondence tourney in the early 1990s, white scored significantly less than 50%. That is the best source I have seen for showing the true strength of that opening.

I made a comment about opening books saying something like, white has an advantage, but black should be okay. Here's an example, Play the Classical Dutch by Simon Williams, (Mnb I know you have it) page 40. "Maybe white is slightly better, but the game should end in a draw."

The question I raised was whether an evaluation can grow from say, += to +- without black making a mistake or += to = without white making a mistake. I believe it can, and the original evaluation of += remain valid. But I think what Mnb is saying is that the original evaluation must have been faulty if no mistakes were made and the evaluation later changed. Anyway, it's an interesting debate.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #115 - 05/15/10 at 22:09:29
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Obviously evaluations like '=+' or '-0.34' can and will change as a line is more deeply explored. These are rather meaningless practical evaluations, basically telling that the position is easier to play for one side. To then revert to the initial position and say that the original evaluation was wrong will frequently be meaningless, as if you follow another plausible path you will get another slightly different evaluation.

What Steinitz showed (or claimed) was that the three evaluations 'White wins', 'the position is drawn' and 'Black wins' cannot change unless one of the players make a genuine mistake.

I would be slightly surprised if the BDG isn't a draw if handled perfectly by both sides. White after all has something for that pawn. For practical purposes my guess is that White has the better chances at sub 1800 level and that Black will score better above 2300. In between I suppose the chances will be rather balanced (which isn't great for White).

However, I look forward to Scheerer's conclusions. The gambit deserves a full and objective investigation by a strong player, and the tree format should make any conclusion more reliable than Everyman's standard annotated games format.
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #114 - 05/15/10 at 21:05:39
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dmp4373 wrote on 05/15/10 at 19:25:06:
I understand your reasoning and it's logical, but it fails to recognize the very real situation that often occurs where an advantage exists, yet there is no way to forcefully exploit it. Here is an example of my point; White has a lead in development and all other things are equal. There is no way for white to cash in on that lead and so black gradually catches up in development and the position goes from += to =.

By your reasoning, white's advantage was an illusion and didn't actually exist.

Exactly.

dmp4373 wrote on 05/15/10 at 19:25:06:
But evaluations are based on the static and dynamic elements of a position at a given moment. White really did have a lead in development and therefore really did have the advantage at that point in time.

This is not really a contradiction. An advantage can be meaningless. This especially happens to temporary advantages like a lead of development or a badly placed peace.
I have had an extreme example of the latter in one of my games. In a Volga Gambit I had a knight on b6, my opponent doubled pawns on b2 and b5. I played Nb6-a8. According to your logic White at that moment had a real advantage (extra pawn and that knight on one of the worst squares of the board. Just a move later I played Na8-c7 (I had foreseen that White could not prevent it; big deal) after which I soon won back pawn b5 with an advantage. I won the game.
So according to you within two moves the correct evaluation went from more or less equal (blockading Knight on b6 offered enough compensation) to good for White to good for Black within two moves.
Does not make any sense. The point is of course that dynamic play requires separating real advantages and weakness from virtual ones. As Kortchnoi and Bronstein declared: a weakness is only a weakness if the opponent can take benefit from it. And exactly that is the question of all gambits: can the defender take benefit of the extra material? Concerning the BDG the debate continues.

dmp4373 wrote on 05/15/10 at 19:25:06:
You see this all the time in opening books with comments like, 'White has a slight advantage, but black should be okay.

Not in the opening books I have. Though I quite read often something like "White has a slight advantage, but Black has decent play." That's quite different.

Still I think I know what you mean. I have seen games in which one players maintains an edge until the very last move, when it proved not enough for a win. But as long as the BDG is not analysed until deep into the endgame this is not that relevant for the evaluation of this opening. If openings are indeed analysed until the very end only three evaluations remain: won, drawn, lost.

Btw I am curious how you evaluate a perfectly closed position in which one player has Queen and King and the other only a King; no way to invade. Evaluating that one as advantageous makes as much sense as evaluating a gambit that offers optical compensation iso real one as more or less equal. I have enough experience with the former. To distinguish the two is essential for any gambit player - and a very hard task.
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #113 - 05/15/10 at 19:25:06
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MNb wrote on 05/15/10 at 16:29:12:
I don't understand the thought behind this question. If after perfect play the evaluation at the end of the BDG-lines is =+ or = then the evaluation after 1.d4 d5 2.e4 is also =+ or =. If at some stage White does not have enough he/she did not have enough at move 2 either. So compensation only grows or dissipates if Black respectively White plays suboptimal moves. If you are convinced that White has enough after 2.e4 but not at say move 20 you should look for improvements.


I understand your reasoning and it's logical, but it fails to recognize the very real situation that often occurs where an advantage exists, yet there is no way to forcefully exploit it. Here is an example of my point; White has a lead in development and all other things are equal. There is no way for white to cash in on that lead and so black gradually catches up in development and the position goes from += to =.

By your reasoning, white's advantage was an illusion and didn't actually exist. But evaluations are based on the static and dynamic elements of a position at a given moment. White really did have a lead in development and therefore really did have the advantage at that point in time.

Have you ever seen a grandmaster annotate a game where he gives += after say move 14 and = at move 20 with no ? or comments as to what happened. The advantaged simply petered out. That doesn't mean the advantage didn't exist, only that with best play it wasn't dangerous and couldn't last. You see this all the time in opening books with comments like, 'White has a slight advantage, but black should be okay.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #112 - 05/15/10 at 19:05:38
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Exactly.  If White optically appears to have a strong initiative for the pawn (e.g. the line 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 c6 5.Bc4 exf3 6.Nxf3 Bf5 7.Ne5 e6 8.0-0) the assessment is still -/+ if Black can fend off the initiative with good play (8...Bg6!).

In a position that is genuinely "=", the initiative should, with accurate play, either be a long-term initiative, lead to the regain of the lost pawn, or force Black to make concessions that devalue the pawn plus (the lines following Lev Gutman's suggestion 7.Bg5 e6 8.Nh4, endorsed in Stefan Bücker's article, give good examples of this).
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #111 - 05/15/10 at 16:29:12
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I don't understand the thought behind this question. If after perfect play the evaluation at the end of the BDG-lines is =+ or = then the evaluation after 1.d4 d5 2.e4 is also =+ or =. If at some stage White does not have enough he/she did not have enough at move 2 either. So compensation only grows or dissipates if Black respectively White plays suboptimal moves. If you are convinced that White has enough after 2.e4 but not at say move 20 you should look for improvements.
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #110 - 05/15/10 at 16:09:27
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The great debate in the d-pawn sections forum has been whether the BDG is = or =+. I believe the most important question is actually; with best play, does white's compensation for the sacrificed pawn grow, remain stagnant or dissipate? The answer to that question will tell you whether the BDG is sound or not.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #109 - 05/13/10 at 20:46:03
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Blackmar-Diemer Keybook I (1992) by NM Tim Sawyer

BDGK II, (1999)

BDGK III (2009)

Das Moderne Blackmar-Diemer-Gambit, 5 volumes (in German)

Blackmar-Diemer Gambit World magazine, 1983 - 1998.

And that is just for starters!
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #108 - 05/13/10 at 19:25:17
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all this talk kind of makes we want to learn about the blackmar diemer. What are some sources for info on this gambit?
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #107 - 05/13/10 at 17:06:02
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I cover the ...Bg4 and ...Bf5 lines in my 1997 article. Ask MnB or SWJediKnight to send you a copy of the file I forwarded them.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #106 - 05/13/10 at 14:51:35
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TN wrote on 05/12/10 at 08:19:04:
After 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.a3, Black can play a good Blackmar-Diemer with 3...de4 4.Nc3 e5! and ...c6 is more useful than a3.


I wouldn't award 4...e5 an exclam.  I would prefer 4...Nf6, trusting that I could find a BDG variation not demanding the presence of my KB on b4.  For instance 5.f3 exf3 8.Nxf3 Bg4 or Bf5, eh?
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #105 - 05/13/10 at 11:08:22
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So it is equal.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #104 - 05/12/10 at 22:20:31
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8...f6 is an error, exchanging White's weak e5-pawn for no reason.

8...Ne7 9.Ne3 Ng6 10.Nc4 Nb6 is better, when the position is equal.
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #103 - 05/12/10 at 15:52:02
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You mean the Lemberger Counter-Gambit, right? Here this leads only to White advantage after 5 de5 Qxd1 6 Nxd1 Nd7 7 f4 ef3 8 Nxf3 f6 9 ef6 Ngf6 10 Nc3 Nc5 11 Bf4 Nce4 12 Nxe4 Nxe4 13 Bd3 Bd6 14 Bxd6 Nxd6 15 000 Be6 +/-
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #102 - 05/12/10 at 08:19:04
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After 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.a3, Black can play a good Blackmar-Diemer with 3...de4 4.Nc3 e5! and ...c6 is more useful than a3.
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #101 - 05/12/10 at 01:42:33
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Precisely my point. It confuses my opponents! How do you think I beat a number of masters with it?
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #100 - 05/11/10 at 21:15:25
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Thanks for that Lev- I got the email too.  I see a lot of evidence there to suggest that it has plenty of practical value, but objectively speaking I doubt that the move a2-a3 achieves a lot in the main lines of the Ziegler.

I agree about 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.a3- that would confuse a lot of opponents esp. in blitz!
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #99 - 05/11/10 at 19:41:12
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Gambit wrote on 05/10/10 at 19:55:23:
I sent you the file. See if you got it.


Succeeded! Thanks a lot. It looks good - I mean, the structure etcetera. Not for a second I believe it's correct. But I can not rule out the possibility that I am biased either. Anyhow, 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.a3 managed to bring a smile upon my face. The look upon the face of an opponent is one good reason to play this.
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #98 - 05/11/10 at 05:03:31
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Nuts...
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #97 - 05/11/10 at 01:33:42
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My understanding is that he had it written in an illustrated games format, but then the publisher instructed him to rewrite the book under a variation tree format.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #96 - 05/10/10 at 23:45:41
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Six Months????  Shocked What is going on?? Maybe it will never come out. Sad. Cry
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #95 - 05/10/10 at 19:55:23
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I sent you the file. See if you got it.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #94 - 05/10/10 at 16:13:30
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You don't get the point. I have no means to pay him (the transfer is the problem). And talking about lazy: you are the one who hasn't send me a copy for two years or so. As usual you blame others for what you are self guilty of.

For your information: Ametanoitos has send me an email plus attachment just three weeks ago. Nobody in the whole wide world has problems in this department, except you. Remarkable, don't you think?
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #93 - 05/10/10 at 16:02:34
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Geez, I could write a much better book about the BDG in that time. Faster, too!

About BDG #79: Don't be lazy, just do some searching on the Internet! Tom Purser, the Editor-in-Chief, is still alive. Reach out to him.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #92 - 05/10/10 at 14:37:46
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Man, no one is gonna like this - pushed back off the Coming Soon list, and 6 months. Ooooof.

Angry
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #91 - 05/10/10 at 10:12:28
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Gambit wrote on 05/10/10 at 02:19:15:
What do you expect?


More than a database dump with an occasional meaningless remark. The monthly magazine of my club had now and then more substance some 20, 30 years ago.

I checked you article(s) several times, but there was nothing on 9...c6. But if it will appear in UON 27 it's fine with me.

Thanks for saving the time of browsing through another 20 volumes.

From a practical point of view your article on 5...c6 6.a3 does not exist for me, because there is no way for me to obtain it.
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #90 - 05/10/10 at 02:19:15
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What do you expect? Kaissiber has a professional staff, with high-rated players contributing material. It has titled players, and is consistently in German. UON articles have been published in Italian, French, English and German languages. The editor does all  the editing work himself, although materials come in the email.

Yes, my articles are of better quality than some others. That is because I take a lot of time and research putting them together. Also, the second part of the Zilbermints Gambit in the Euwe Defense is scheduled for UON #27. But if you are so restless, check UON #25 to find a few 9...c6 and 9...c5 games.


With regard to  5...c6 6 a3 in the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit, the relevant magazine is Blackmar-Diemer Gambit World #79, August-October 1997, pages 104-107. Yes, the article exists, and was published, almost 13 years ago now.

I have played the 6 a3 line on the Internet Chess Club and scored pretty well with it.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #89 - 05/09/10 at 14:37:52
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I agree, I flicked through all 25 newsletters and didn't think much of a large majority of them.  LDZ's contributions are usually among the better ones- particularly the articles on 8.0-0 in the Euwe Defence.  I must admit I found Rick Kennedy's articles on the (completely unsound) Jerome Gambit (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.Bxf7+) quite interesting.

Also, most of the openings in there are too unorthodox even for my taste- many are comparable in soundness to the Jerome.  I'd go as far as to say that 8.0-0 in the Euwe Defence is easily one of the sounder ideas mentioned in there, and at least has a rationale, which I can't say for many of the others.

The pieces on the Halloween were also fairly decent but there's a better analysis of the line in Kaissiber 22, which ties in with MNb's last point.  I ordered numerous back issues of Kaissiber three months ago and haven't been disappointed with any of them.  Unlike in UON the openings covered in Kaissiber also tend to be playable short of the 2400 level and sometimes higher.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #88 - 05/09/10 at 14:20:42
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After browsing through a few volumes I must admit I don't think too high of it. 90% is just games without any analysis, with now and then a comment like "this exchange sac results in interesting play." LDZ's article, if read as a set of 5 different articles, is a positive exception. I doubt the relevance though.
It's that I am genuinely interested in 5...c6 6.a3, but otherwise I doubt I would look any further.

I must admit though that any fan of the Dutch player Du Chattel who wants to collect all of his games has to consult UON 26. Also I found a decent article on 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Be2 Nf6 4.d4.

If you look for inspiring analysis though you should prefer Kaissiber.
  

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