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Normal Topic The English - Dealing with 1...Nf6 (Read 5742 times)
Michael Ayton
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Re: The English - Dealing with 1...Nf6
Reply #8 - 11/02/09 at 14:18:08
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Footnote. Annotating his game with Tkachiev on ChessPub, Tony K describes the A36 (...c5 and not ...e5) Botvinnik as solid and a potentially good choice for White if a win isn't necessary. (There are some very good games and notes on this line on the site!) Perhaps then the [i]TDE[/i] note that if ...e5 isn't in it's "better to play something else" should be seen essentially in that (GM-competitive) context. After all it occurs after the sequence 1 c4 g6 2 g3 Bg7 3 Bg2 Nf6 4 Nc3 0-0, when KID transpositions are still possible. But after 5 d3 d6 when they're not, I'd still like to know what line(s) could/should be thought 'superior' to the Botvinnik! (6 Bg5 could be more unbalancing I guess, but better than 6 e4 ...? -- h'mm.) Of course, if Tony himself cared to comment that'd be great! ...
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: The English - Dealing with 1...Nf6
Reply #7 - 11/02/09 at 00:00:34
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Tony K. (in [i]The Dynamic English[/i]) says the idea of Gurevich's 6 Bg5 is (1) Qd2/Bh6/h4, h5 and also (2) to retain options with the central pawns till Black commits himself. I can see that all sorts of questions might be raised by this, e.g. (a) after 6 ...h6 7 Bd2 are there any lines (...e5-Botvinnik-like or not) where White has gained anything over normal lines? and (b) can (2) above properly be regarded as a 'point', in and of itself, at all? Still, 6 Bg5 looks flexible and interesting to me, and could be a useful practical weapon? I said ...e5 was quite likely to follow solely because in quite a lot of the games it does! After 6 ...h6 7 Bd2 a relatively early ...e5 occurs in around three-quarters of games it seems (much less frequently in other vars), but I'm certainly not suggesting it's Black's best!

As for the Botvinnik against ...c5 (RR ...e5), I think this is a very interesting question! Perhaps I should have said "frequently uttered" rather than "traditional 'wisdom'"! Your point about the reversed version, kylemeister, seems unassailable to me. Yet Tony (p. 129, top) is quite categorical. H'mmm. TimS had some interesting thoughts on this a while back, and in fact kindly sent me some games which for the moment I can't lay my hands on, annoyingly. Anyone else care to comment?

I take your point about 6 e3, kylemeister, though we must note it's been tried by some very strong players ... On 6 Rb1 c6 I don't personally fancy giving Nijboer his compensation, but I see 7 Nf3 has been tried once or twice here. H'mmm ...

« Last Edit: 11/02/09 at 09:47:05 by Michael Ayton »  
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Re: The English - Dealing with 1...Nf6
Reply #6 - 10/31/09 at 20:44:24
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[quote author=nmga link=1256930092/0#4 date=1256948207]Sure, Markland--Hort is a great reminder of what can befall Black if he eschews his usual setup with ...Nc6 against the Botvinnik, and then gets careless. But still, after 1 c4 Nf6 2 g3 g6 3 Bg2 Bg7 4 Nc3 d6, [i]if[/i] White plays 5 d3 then after 5 ... 0-0 he needs a move. Isn't your aim of going for a Botvinnik setup, kylemeister, best met by 6 Bg5 (since ...e5 is quite likely to follow)? Of course White [i]can[/i] go e4 without ...e5 having been played, and some think this is by no means as bad as traditional 'wisdom' says. Or else we can give up Botvinnik hopes and just play 6 Nf3. I'd also like to know what to think of 6 Rb1 and 6 e3/7 Nge2.* Which option do people think is strongest? Time for a poll?

*  When is this setup strong and when anodyne? Is there any consensus about this?[/quote]

From my limited exposure to 6. Bg5, it hasn't been clear to me what the point of it is, so to speak, although I know it can lead to a sort of Botvinnik.  I'm not sure why ...e5 is "quite likely to follow."

I'm not aware of traditional wisdom saying that the Botvinnik is bad when Black hasn't played ...e5.  Emms in NCO thought that the branch reached by e.g. 1. c4 Nf6 2. g3 g6 3. Bg2 Bg7 4. Nc3 0-0 5. e4 d6 6. Nge2 c5 7. d3 Nc6 8. 0-0 should be slightly better for White, and I seem to recall Watson in his old 1. c4 c5 book having a similar view based on 8...Ne8 (often given as the main move, though that seems questionable to me) 9. Be3 Nd4 10. Rb1 “triangle” b4, though I've also seen sources that thought this stuff should be equal or unclear with best play.

After all, the Botvinnik is generally quite respectable when played by Black even when White hasn’t played e4.  (Here the first game I think of is another oldie, Evans-Karpov 1972, in essentially the reversed version of the above.)

In the sequence you gave, 6. e3 looks out of place to me because of Black's ability to play for ...c6 and ...d5; relatedly, on 6. Rb1 a possibility is 6...c6 7. e4 d5 as in M. Gurevich-Nijboer 1997, cited by ECO as leading to "compensation for the material."
  
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TonyRo
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Re: The English - Dealing with 1...Nf6
Reply #5 - 10/31/09 at 20:14:49
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TN wrote on 10/30/09 at 20:18:02:
TonyRo wrote on 10/30/09 at 19:14:51:
Hello all,

How do you Flankers deal with 1...Nf6? I'd like to go with 2. g3, since 2. Nc3 e5 or 2...c6 would lead me outside my normal English repertoire. But then what? Do you guys transpose to the Fianchetto KID, or try Kosten's weird Bg5 idea against the KID? I can't figure out a way that I really enjoy playing against the KID set-ups. Hopefully Marin's book will shine some light on it for me.


You forgot 2.Nf3, which is just as important as 2.Nc3. I don't have time to compare the advantages and disadvantages of this move right now, but 2.Nf3 should give White slightly more options within Flank Opening territory and stops 2...e5. The flip side is that you can only transpose to 1.d4 openings where White has already played Nf3, which limits one's options somewhat.


I didn't forget about it, I was just turned off by the fact that 2...d6!? might cause me some problems, since ...e5 will follow and I'm out of Botvinnik territory.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: The English - Dealing with 1...Nf6
Reply #4 - 10/31/09 at 00:16:47
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Sure, Markland--Hort is a great reminder of what can befall Black if he eschews his usual setup with ...Nc6 against the Botvinnik, and then gets careless. But still, after 1 c4 Nf6 2 g3 g6 3 Bg2 Bg7 4 Nc3 d6, [i]if[/i] White plays 5 d3 then after 5 ... 0-0 he needs a move. Isn't your aim of going for a Botvinnik setup, kylemeister, best met by 6 Bg5 (since ...e5 is quite likely to follow)? Of course White [i]can[/i] go e4 without ...e5 having been played, and some think this is by no means as bad as traditional 'wisdom' says. Or else we can give up Botvinnik hopes and just play 6 Nf3. I'd also like to know what to think of 6 Rb1 and 6 e3/7 Nge2.* Which option do people think is strongest? Time for a poll?

*  When is this setup strong and when anodyne? Is there any consensus about this?
  
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Re: The English - Dealing with 1...Nf6
Reply #3 - 10/30/09 at 22:46:39
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Another decent possibility after 2. g3 g6 is to aim for a Botvinnik setup.  For one thing, I would think you might fairly often encounter the sort of mindless KID-type play that once got Hort crushed by the British master Peter Markland.
  
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TN
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Re: The English - Dealing with 1...Nf6
Reply #2 - 10/30/09 at 20:18:02
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TonyRo wrote on 10/30/09 at 19:14:51:
Hello all,

How do you Flankers deal with 1...Nf6? I'd like to go with 2. g3, since 2. Nc3 e5 or 2...c6 would lead me outside my normal English repertoire. But then what? Do you guys transpose to the Fianchetto KID, or try Kosten's weird Bg5 idea against the KID? I can't figure out a way that I really enjoy playing against the KID set-ups. Hopefully Marin's book will shine some light on it for me.


You forgot 2.Nf3, which is just as important as 2.Nc3. I don't have time to compare the advantages and disadvantages of this move right now, but 2.Nf3 should give White slightly more options within Flank Opening territory and stops 2...e5. The flip side is that you can only transpose to 1.d4 openings where White has already played Nf3, which limits one's options somewhat.
  

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Antillian
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Re: The English - Dealing with 1...Nf6
Reply #1 - 10/30/09 at 19:52:17
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I suspect Marin will recommend the reversed Sicilan lines as covered by Donaldson in his "Strategic Opening Repertoire for White". I can't see any other compelling choice for White if he does not want to transpose to the KID.
  

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TonyRo
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The English - Dealing with 1...Nf6
10/30/09 at 19:14:51
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Hello all,

How do you Flankers deal with 1...Nf6? I'd like to go with 2. g3, since 2. Nc3 e5 or 2...c6 would lead me outside my normal English repertoire. But then what? Do you guys transpose to the Fianchetto KID, or try Kosten's weird Bg5 idea against the KID? I can't figure out a way that I really enjoy playing against the KID set-ups. Hopefully Marin's book will shine some light on it for me.
  
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