Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Playing the Benko... (Read 27225 times)
LeeRoth
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Re: Playing the Benko...
Reply #25 - 02/24/20 at 17:40:29
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halfacreek wrote on 02/15/10 at 22:53:04:
Good day,

I've just started the Benko and am really enjoying it so far. however, it has me thinking about a cohesive e4 defense. What do benko players play against e4?


The Dragon is probably the closest cousin.  Fianchetto bishop, dark square play, rooks to the queenside, etc.



  
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Re: Playing the Benko...
Reply #24 - 02/24/20 at 09:37:38
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 11/30/09 at 11:10:41:
Moreover, after 1.d4 c5 2.c3/2.e3 Black could still play 2...f5. Objectively slightly worse than 2...Nf6, but it's an option, if you prefer piece play.


Hi Stefan,
could you give a little more info on this 2...f5 idea? I recall "The Vulture" had two or three games with 2...f5, but otherwise there are not that many games to be found in the databases.
The pawn formation is definitely very ununsual and I have difficulties figuring out where the black pieces should go.
After 1.d4 c5 2.e3 f5 is the idea to play a kind of Leningrad Dutch with c5 included?
  
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Re: Playing the Benko...
Reply #23 - 02/15/10 at 22:53:04
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Good day,

I've just started the Benko and am really enjoying it so far. however, it has me thinking about a cohesive e4 defense. What do benko players play against e4?
  
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Re: Playing the Benko...
Reply #22 - 12/01/09 at 17:23:03
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From a psychological perspective, 


If white refrains from 2.d5, I don't know why he would play 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5.

Put another way, I wonder if the statistics are dealing with similar populations of players.  

I know that as White, I would not seriously consider 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3, but I might consider 1.d4 c5 2. anything but d5 in order to avoid some specially prepared line.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Playing the Benko...
Reply #21 - 11/30/09 at 12:50:36
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There must be a demographic factor, elo-wise, but my impression was that even titled players opt out more often after 2...c5 than after 1...c5. It may have to do with the prejudice in many opening books that 1...c5 was inaccurate. An opinion which I don't buy. - Regarding your question whether 2...f5 or 2...Nf6 is the more effective punishment, today I'd avoid 2...f5 against 2300+ players, who may be able to "sit" on Black's weaknesses for a long time. 
  
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Re: Playing the Benko...
Reply #20 - 11/30/09 at 11:23:44
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 11/30/09 at 11:10:41:
It's a statistic argument. After 1.d4 c5, the chances are better that White plays 2.d5. According to MegaBase 2008, this happens in 63% of the cases, while only 10% resp. 10.8% play 2.c3 or 2.e3. That makes roughly 80% "good" vs. 20% bad cases. 

After 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5, there is a reduced chance of 3.d5 (42.1%), while "bad cases" abound: 3.c3 (19.8%), 3.e3 (21.4%) and 3.c4 (8.7%), a total of almost 50%. So if you are Black and like unbalanced positions, 2...c5 simply does not achieve what it is made for: urging White's d-pawn to advance.

Moreover, after 1.d4 c5 2.c3/2.e3 Black could still play 2...f5. Objectively slightly worse than 2...Nf6, but it's an option, if you prefer piece play. I recommended 2...f5 in "The Vulture", but admit that my own practice later converted to 2...Nf6. If White doesn't want anything from the opening, why not punish him.


Very interesting, I would have thought at Master level (maybe even Expert level) and above one would hardly see anything other than d5 in either case.  I feel fairly certain that the club players I face that don't want to play the main lines won't be tempted by d5 after 1...c5.  The ...f5 option looks very interesting and at one time I owned a copy of The Vulture so I probably saw the analysis at one point.  I'm definitely of the mindset to want to punish White for his unambitious play but is it better to do it with something like ...f5 or by playing something a little sounder and getting to claim equality sooner than after d5?
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Playing the Benko...
Reply #19 - 11/30/09 at 11:10:41
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It's a statistic argument. After 1.d4 c5, the chances are better that White plays 2.d5. According to MegaBase 2008, this happens in 63% of the cases, while only 10% resp. 10.8% play 2.c3 or 2.e3. That makes roughly 80% "good" vs. 20% bad cases. 

After 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5, there is a reduced chance of 3.d5 (42.1%), while "bad cases" abound: 3.c3 (19.8%), 3.e3 (21.4%) and 3.c4 (8.7%), a total of almost 50%. So if you are Black and like unbalanced positions, 2...c5 simply does not achieve what it is made for: urging White's d-pawn to advance.

Moreover, after 1.d4 c5 2.c3/2.e3 Black could still play 2...f5. Objectively slightly worse than 2...Nf6, but it's an option, if you prefer piece play. I recommended 2...f5 in "The Vulture", but admit that my own practice later converted to 2...Nf6. If White doesn't want anything from the opening, why not punish him.
  
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Re: Playing the Benko...
Reply #18 - 11/30/09 at 04:45:37
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 11/12/09 at 12:32:02:
Alluren wrote on 11/12/09 at 11:23:56:
Markovich is right. Except that, below 2000, 99% of your opponents won't answer 2...c5 with 3.d5 but with 3.c3 or 3.e3

That's why I prefer 1. ... c5.


After 1.d4 c5, can't White still play 2.c3 or 2.e3?  How is this better than 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.c3 or 3.e3?  I realize that with sensible play Black should be fine in all of these situations but in the former is there some dynamic benefit to not having played ...Nf6 already?
  
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Re: Playing the Benko...
Reply #17 - 11/14/09 at 10:58:56
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Markovich wrote on 11/12/09 at 17:01:25:
@Stefan: How do you continue after 2.d5 when White doesn't play c4?

1.d4 c5 2.d5 Nf6 3.Nc3. The Schmid Benoni. Now my recommendation (in The Vulture) was 3...Qa5 4.Bd2 b5 ("Woozle"). See Kaissiber #23, p. 7f. for a critical line. The same issue also discusses 3...d6 4.Nf3 Qa5 5.Bd2 b5, invented by Juan Manuel Bellon. In my opinion it is perfectly sound. - OK, I admit that White has 4.e4 to avoid the Bellon line. In reality, Bellon had played it only against 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 etc. - But there are also the standard lines of the Lothar Schmid Benoni, which have never been refuted. The German book on the Oldindian (by Stoljar & Kondratjew, I believe) is quite helpful.
  
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Re: Playing the Benko...
Reply #16 - 11/14/09 at 08:28:22
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bragesjo wrote on 11/14/09 at 07:32:59:

There is one thing called theoretical play and one thing called practical play. For my own part, I would never play Accelerated agianst any player since I find the Bind positions little to boring for my taste and I would never play it against any lower rated.

Completely agree. When I get a bind on the board I just check if my opponent is Tiviakov and if not I am fairly confident of the result Wink
  

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Re: Playing the Benko...
Reply #15 - 11/14/09 at 07:32:59
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Willempie wrote on 11/13/09 at 19:23:37:
bragesjo wrote on 11/13/09 at 15:31:41:
Blacks most solid lines i accelerated agianst the Bind includes Nf6 d6 and if allowed a exchange at d4 (or Ng4 if white has played Be3 instead of Be2 or f3) if white cooperative. Nc2 ala Experts vs the Sicilian is interseting where Experts claims small white edge in one position (an improment over a sample game) and books written for black claims small edge for black and computers tend to minimun favor black in that position. The only lines missing out are the more sharper lines where black aims for a quick f5.

I now faced it twice and got 2 points, one of which against a considerably higher rated guy, who had to resign at move 20. Due to Nf6 being played already I didnt have to worry much about pressure on d4 and could play Nc2 and Be3 both.


There is one thing called theoretical play and one thing called practical play. For my own part, I would never play Accelerated agianst any player since I find the Bind positions little to boring for my taste and I would never play it against any lower rated.
  
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Re: Playing the Benko...
Reply #14 - 11/13/09 at 19:23:37
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bragesjo wrote on 11/13/09 at 15:31:41:
Blacks most solid lines i accelerated agianst the Bind includes Nf6 d6 and if allowed a exchange at d4 (or Ng4 if white has played Be3 instead of Be2 or f3) if white cooperative. Nc2 ala Experts vs the Sicilian is interseting where Experts claims small white edge in one position (an improment over a sample game) and books written for black claims small edge for black and computers tend to minimun favor black in that position. The only lines missing out are the more sharper lines where black aims for a quick f5.

I now faced it twice and got 2 points, one of which against a considerably higher rated guy, who had to resign at move 20. Due to Nf6 being played already I didnt have to worry much about pressure on d4 and could play Nc2 and Be3 both.
  

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Re: Playing the Benko...
Reply #13 - 11/13/09 at 15:31:41
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Blacks most solid lines i accelerated agianst the Bind includes Nf6 d6 and if allowed a exchange at d4 (or Ng4 if white has played Be3 instead of Be2 or f3) if white cooperative. Nc2 ala Experts vs the Sicilian is interseting where Experts claims small white edge in one position (an improment over a sample game) and books written for black claims small edge for black and computers tend to minimun favor black in that position. The only lines missing out are the more sharper lines where black aims for a quick f5.
  
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Re: Playing the Benko...
Reply #12 - 11/13/09 at 11:37:11
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Alluren wrote on 11/13/09 at 10:04:40:

Playing 3.Nf3 transposes to the English, and black doesn't have to play against the bind. Two good options are available :
3... e5 4.Nb5 d5 (aka gambit Kasparov)
or
3...e6 followed by Bb4 and Ne4

All too true. However most black players who play a benoni or benko will not play these lines as they are conditioned to play g6.
Btw isnt it 4..e5/4..e6?
In the last case you often also can set up a bind, but more of a hedgehog. As someone who also plays 1.e4 I welcome these kinds of transpositions.
  

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Re: Playing the Benko...
Reply #11 - 11/13/09 at 10:04:40
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Willempie wrote on 11/12/09 at 22:42:29:
naughtyknight wrote on 11/12/09 at 18:24:06:
Thanks for the continuing debate. I own Starting Out: The Accelerated Dragon, and I didn't think the bind was such an issue, so that seems like a way to go which I had not considered.

I'm enjoying the discussion. It's nice to find something which as not been discussed to death on the forum!

I have been dabbling a lot with 1.d4 lately, but against Benoni/Benko stuff I refuse to play d5 but just play Nf3. I got into the bind twice now already and I cant think of a reason why black would want to enter it via that route. For starters some of the nicer ideas are gone because Nf6 has been played already.


Playing 3.Nf3 transposes to the English, and black doesn't have to play against the bind. Two good options are available :
3... e5 4.Nb5 d5 (aka gambit Kasparov)
or
3...e6 followed by Bb4 and Ne4
  
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Re: Playing the Benko...
Reply #10 - 11/12/09 at 22:42:29
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naughtyknight wrote on 11/12/09 at 18:24:06:
Thanks for the continuing debate. I own Starting Out: The Accelerated Dragon, and I didn't think the bind was such an issue, so that seems like a way to go which I had not considered.

I'm enjoying the discussion. It's nice to find something which as not been discussed to death on the forum!

I have been dabbling a lot with 1.d4 lately, but against Benoni/Benko stuff I refuse to play d5 but just play Nf3. I got into the bind twice now already and I cant think of a reason why black would want to enter it via that route. For starters some of the nicer ideas are gone because Nf6 has been played already.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Playing the Benko...
Reply #9 - 11/12/09 at 20:29:40
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Keano wrote on 11/12/09 at 11:45:44:
naughtyknight wrote on 11/11/09 at 18:43:35:
Does anyone have any good repertoire suggestions for playing the Benko against, say, 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3? Is the best bet to head into a Kings Indian with 2...g6?

Are there any interesting move orders for a Benko player to use in different situations? 

Perhaps learning the Kings Indian to play the Benko is overkill!


I gave this question some thought a while back and came to the conclusion 2...g6 is a good move-order - not to play a KID but to go back into the Benko after 3.c4 with 3...c5. There is a catch though, as there is with all move-order problems in chess. White can play 4.Nc3 and we´ll end up in a Maroczy bind. If you´re prepared to defend the Maroczy as Black (which in my view is not a bad option - Andrew Greets book and a look at the Tiviakov DVD should suffice) then 2...g6 is the way to go.


Agree with this post. If you are willing to play the accel dragon from time to time- this is a good bet to trick some whites into a benko.
  
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Re: Playing the Benko...
Reply #8 - 11/12/09 at 18:24:06
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Thanks for the continuing debate. I own Starting Out: The Accelerated Dragon, and I didn't think the bind was such an issue, so that seems like a way to go which I had not considered.

I'm enjoying the discussion. It's nice to find something which as not been discussed to death on the forum!
  
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Re: Playing the Benko...
Reply #7 - 11/12/09 at 17:01:25
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TN wrote on 11/11/09 at 21:18:37:


I suggest 2...e6 3.c4 c5 with the intention of 4.d5 b5 as being a good alternative.


This is the Blumenfeld Gambit, is it not?  Is it sound?  I thought that it was considered a bit dicey.  Obviously also, you have to prepare the Torre if you play 2...e6.  Not necessarily a bad thing, of course.

@Stefan: How do you continue after 2.d5 when White doesn't play c4?

  

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Re: Playing the Benko...
Reply #6 - 11/12/09 at 12:32:02
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Alluren wrote on 11/12/09 at 11:23:56:
Markovich is right. Except that, below 2000, 99% of your opponents won't answer 2...c5 with 3.d5 but with 3.c3 or 3.e3

That's why I prefer 1. ... c5.
  
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Re: Playing the Benko...
Reply #5 - 11/12/09 at 11:58:29
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It will be interesting to see how Pedersen plans to deal with these questions. But his books is a good seven months away still:
http://www.everymanchess.com/chess/books/Play_the_Benko_Gambit
  

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Re: Playing the Benko...
Reply #4 - 11/12/09 at 11:45:44
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naughtyknight wrote on 11/11/09 at 18:43:35:
Does anyone have any good repertoire suggestions for playing the Benko against, say, 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3? Is the best bet to head into a Kings Indian with 2...g6?

Are there any interesting move orders for a Benko player to use in different situations? 

Perhaps learning the Kings Indian to play the Benko is overkill!


I gave this question some thought a while back and came to the conclusion 2...g6 is a good move-order - not to play a KID but to go back into the Benko after 3.c4 with 3...c5. There is a catch though, as there is with all move-order problems in chess. White can play 4.Nc3 and we´ll end up in a Maroczy bind. If you´re prepared to defend the Maroczy as Black (which in my view is not a bad option - Andrew Greets book and a look at the Tiviakov DVD should suffice) then 2...g6 is the way to go.
  
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Re: Playing the Benko...
Reply #3 - 11/12/09 at 11:23:56
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Markovich is right. Except that, below 2000, 99% of your opponents won't answer 2...c5 with 3.d5 but with 3.c3 or 3.e3
  
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Re: Playing the Benko...
Reply #2 - 11/11/09 at 21:18:37
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Markovich wrote on 11/11/09 at 20:21:25:
naughtyknight wrote on 11/11/09 at 18:43:35:
Does anyone have any good repertoire suggestions for playing the Benko against, say, 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3? Is the best bet to head into a Kings Indian with 2...g6?

Are there any interesting move orders for a Benko player to use in different situations? 

Perhaps learning the Kings Indian to play the Benko is overkill!


Definitely, it is overkill.  Many Benko practioners (perhaps there are not many Benko practioners, in which case I should say a high proportion of Benko practitioners) go with 2...c5 3.d5 b5!?.  I believe that the preferred reply then to 4.Bg5 is 4...Qb6.


I agree with your recommendation and indeed sometimes use it myself, but as a secondary option (which does involve more work) I suggest 2...e6 3.c4 c5 with the intention of 4.d5 b5 as being a good alternative. Black does not have to know much more theory than he does with 2...c5, since White has a similar number of D-pawn specials against 2...c5 compared to 2...e6, and White's 4th move alternatives are not dangerous for Black (and 4.Nc3/g3 cd4 5.Nd4 transposes to 2.c4 c5 3.Nf3, leaving only 4.e3).
  

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Re: Playing the Benko...
Reply #1 - 11/11/09 at 20:21:25
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naughtyknight wrote on 11/11/09 at 18:43:35:
Does anyone have any good repertoire suggestions for playing the Benko against, say, 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3? Is the best bet to head into a Kings Indian with 2...g6?

Are there any interesting move orders for a Benko player to use in different situations? 

Perhaps learning the Kings Indian to play the Benko is overkill!


Definitely, it is overkill.  Many Benko practioners (perhaps there are not many Benko practioners, in which case I should say a high proportion of Benko practitioners) go with 2...c5 3.d5 b5!?.  I believe that the preferred reply then to 4.Bg5 is 4...Qb6.
  

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Playing the Benko...
11/11/09 at 18:43:35
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Does anyone have any good repertoire suggestions for playing the Benko against, say, 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3? Is the best bet to head into a Kings Indian with 2...g6?

Are there any interesting move orders for a Benko player to use in different situations? 

Perhaps learning the Kings Indian to play the Benko is overkill!
  
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