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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 2...Nc6 3 Nc3 (Read 4589 times)
Keano
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Re: 2...Nc6 3 Nc3
Reply #11 - 11/26/09 at 11:57:57
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jaki wrote on 11/25/09 at 23:19:26:
Maybe better than it seems at the first glance could be be 3...Nd4!? (after 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nf3).

Any opinions/refutations? Smiley


I think White should play 4.Bc4 there (at least thats always what I had in mind although nobody ever played it against me) On the other hand the line 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nge2 Nd4!? is worth a look depite not being very popular its not easy for White to get an advantage there, though surely he should be able to manage something.
  
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Re: 2...Nc6 3 Nc3
Reply #10 - 11/26/09 at 05:23:09
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jaki wrote on 11/25/09 at 23:19:26:
Maybe better than it seems at the first glance could be be 3...Nd4!? (after 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nf3).

Any opinions/refutations? Smiley


Don't consider this conclusive analysis as it is away from the board, but 4.Nd4 cd4 5.Nb5 Qb6 6.c3 dc3 7.bc3 and 5...e5 6.Qh5 d6 7.Bc4 g6 8.Qf3 followed by d3 or c3 both look better for White.
  

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jaki
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Re: 2...Nc6 3 Nc3
Reply #9 - 11/25/09 at 23:19:26
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Maybe better than it seems at the first glance could be be 3...Nd4!? (after 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nf3).

Any opinions/refutations? Smiley
  
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Fausto Alava-Moreno
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Re: 2...Nc6 3 Nc3
Reply #8 - 11/17/09 at 16:39:11
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I personally defends the black side in a correspondence game.

I opted for the 3....Nf6 line looking for an open game, but after 4.Bb5 choose the 4... g6 line instead of 4...Qc7.

I am a Sveshnikov fan (on the black side). Wink

The game is ongoing, so I prefer not to mention more here.

I will post my view of the line, when the game finished if you are interested.
  

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Keano
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Re: 2...Nc6 3 Nc3
Reply #7 - 11/17/09 at 16:31:42
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It avoids:
1) the early ...Qb6 line (which I find a little tricky)
2) Lowenthal (which I wouldnt mind allowing)
3) Kalashnikov (I wouldnt mind allowing this either but I can see the value in preventing it)
4) The Sveshnikov IF you are prepared to follow up 3...Nf6 with 4.Bb5 (This line was previously regarded as very good for White but all may not be so simple since The Easiest Sicilian are recommending it - all the same 3...Nf6 is still not very popular)

The problem is basically 3...e5. I played this 3.Nc3 business for about a year and 3...e5 is more popular than I ever thought it would be, amongst players below 2000 and also amongst 2300+ guys. Personally I was happy playing the positions, its a slower type of game and definitely not "Open" but White has chances for a small edge that can persist.

The accelerated Dragon issue I wouldnt even worry about if you are planning Nc3 against the accelerated anyway, which is more critical than the bind these days anyway.
  
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Re: 2...Nc6 3 Nc3
Reply #6 - 11/17/09 at 16:05:45
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Thanks Markovich, I appreciate your insights
  
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Re: 2...Nc6 3 Nc3
Reply #5 - 11/17/09 at 13:59:53
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3...Nf6 is Black's most enterprising try if he wants to play a Sveshnikov.  After 4.Bb5, The Easiest Sicilian advocates 4...g6.  I have no idea whether that line (or 4...Qc7) is better for White than just allowing the Sveshnikov.

What you certainly lose by playing 3.Nc3:

(1) 3...g6 4.d4 leads to an Accelerated Dragon where White has missed his chance to play the Bind.  Black gains at least some options from not having touched his d-pawn.

(2) 3...e6 4.d4 produces a Taimanov where White has missed his chance to play Ndb5. 

But if you employ neither the Bind nor the Bind-like Ndb5 against the Taimanov, you lose little.  I don't know much about 3...e5, but I am suspicious of it. 
  

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sharpplay
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Re: 2...Nc6 3 Nc3
Reply #4 - 11/17/09 at 12:16:29
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Thanks for the comments.  I'm actually not interested in playing anti-Sicilians as I enjoy the open Sicilian.  I suppose this 3 Nc3 approach does not necessarily kill the Sveshnikov as after 3 Nc3 Nf6 I would probably play 4 d4 anyway.  However, it does seem like it would eliminate the Kalashnikov and Lowenthal.  Again, if you are willing to play 3 Nc3 against the accelerated dragon (and I am) then it seems like all gain and no loss for white.
  
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Fausto Alava-Moreno
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Re: 2...Nc6 3 Nc3
Reply #3 - 11/17/09 at 09:49:14
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But I think these lines should a sort of anti-sicilian ones instead of open sicilians.

The 3.Nc3 line is a sort of anti-Sveshnikov line, and very used at SuperGM level in the last three years or so.

May be the post could be best placed in the anti-sicilian subforum.  Wink
  

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Re: 2...Nc6 3 Nc3
Reply #2 - 11/17/09 at 09:17:12
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You'll have to get familiar with two lines:
- 3... e5 (as mentioned before)
- 3... Nf6 (and here possibly 4. Bb5 Qc7 5.0-0 Nd4)
  
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Re: 2...Nc6 3 Nc3
Reply #1 - 11/17/09 at 03:16:50
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sharpplay wrote on 11/17/09 at 02:25:15:
Is there some reason white shouldn't play 3 Nc3 that I'm missing?


I think not; it is indeed a respected move-order.  (3...e5 4. Bc4 is a major line, perhaps slightly better for White.)
  
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sharpplay
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2...Nc6 3 Nc3
11/17/09 at 02:25:15
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I apologize if this has been addressed multiple times before.  After 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 Nc6 does white lose much by playing 3 Nc3?  If one is willing to play Nc3 against the accelerated dragon, doesn't this mean you can avoid the Sveshnikov and Kalashnikov without sacrificing a lot of quality or playing some cheapo sideline?  If black plays 3...e5 anyway, it's almost like some sort of bizarre theoretically impossible four knights game: 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Nc3 c5.  Is there some reason white shouldn't play 3 Nc3 that I'm missing?
  
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