Latest Updates:
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 1 e4 c5 2 Bc4 (Read 18624 times)
Lanark
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 40
Joined: 07/24/13
Re: 1 e4 c5 2 Bc4
Reply #21 - 06/21/18 at 18:11:55
Post Tools
I totally agree with you that Black is objectively fine.
The line you give is very similar to what I used to play. After, let's say, 10.e5 Nfd7 11.Be3 b4 Black has indeed a good French structure and is probably a little better.
You just have to be aware that you are really playing a French here and not a Sicilian. In my games (only blitz) White would eventually play d4 and Bc2 and get some attacking chances on the kingside. But you are right, Black should be faster on the queenside.

There is a difference between this setup and the reversed Leningrad Dutch you mention. The light squared bishop is not on g2 but on the b1-h7-diagonal and is pointing towards black's king.

However, my point is that even if this 2.Bc4 line doesn't give White anything from a theoretical point of view, it is still a game. I wouldn't play 2.Bc4 and I am looking on this from the Black side, but White is not necessarily worse and this line is not so ridiculous.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
Senior Member
****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 492
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: 1 e4 c5 2 Bc4
Reply #20 - 06/21/18 at 16:41:20
Post Tools
@Lanark - Do you have some more actual moves after 1.e4 c5 2.Bc4 e6 3.Qe2 that might be troubling you?

I am thinking the game might go 3...Nc6 4.c3 Be7 5.d3 d5 6.Bb3 Nf6 7.f4 O-O. As black I am never worried about e4-e5 in such positions, black will answer ...Nf6-d7 and ...f7-f6 (sometimes ...f7-f5) reaching a playable French structure. After the further moves 8.Nf3 Rb8 9.O-O b5 I would rather be black, who is ready for a standard ...b5-b4xc3 counterplay, and there is also the break ...c5-c4 for white to worry about. Black can also consider inserting the "positional error" 9...dxe4 10.dxe4 b5, when e4-e5 allows ...Nf6-d5. I have used this setup many times against the reversed Leningrad Dutch, and see Dangerous Weapons for white playing this setup against the actual Leningrad Dutch. Tucking the king away on the kingside and methodically storming the queenside pawns is easy to handle at any time control.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Lanark
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 40
Joined: 07/24/13
Re: 1 e4 c5 2 Bc4
Reply #19 - 06/21/18 at 14:22:01
Post Tools
I faced 1.e4 c5 2.Bc4 e6 3.Qe2 in some blitz games and found it not so easy to play against.
White plays with f4, d3, c3, etc. The bishop goes to b3 and later c2, if Black pushes with d5. Looks like some kind of mixture between Grand Prix Attack and Big Clamp (or even French Chigorin) with the bishop outside the pawn chain.
Maybe not so silly ...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ChevyBanginStyle
Full Member
***
Offline


2 \infty & *CRUNCH*

Posts: 238
Joined: 01/03/10
Re: 1 e4 c5 2 Bc4
Reply #18 - 01/03/10 at 04:06:48
Post Tools
1.e4 c5 2.Bc4 e6 3.Nc3 a6 4.a4 Nf6 5.e5 d5 6.exf6 dxc4 7.fxg7 Bxg7 is fun to play. Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 898
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: 1 e4 c5 2 Bc4
Reply #17 - 12/28/09 at 14:08:44
Post Tools
chk wrote on 12/16/09 at 18:28:55:
tbh, that made me laugh!  Cheesy

@Markovich: yes, I have noticed in the past that we share a different philosophy re opening repertoires. I am minimalistic, practical etc. Of course that has to do a lot with our difference in strength (markovich>chk, but maybe markovich=chk on an inspired day Grin) and also you playing a lot of correspondence. I am an OTB 'beast'.. so I cut a lot of corners.

I gave my comment above, since I believe there are many chess friends here that share my philosophy in opening repertoires. Also the Whites may be willing to know what most Black players will be prepared to answer to the various early-Bc4 lines..


There is a useful distinction to be made not only between OTB chess and correspondence chess, but between OTB play and preparation.

When faced with some unusual line in an over the board game, naturally the priorities have to be practical ones. At today's generally faster time limits it can be very risky to adopt the Geller approach of investing a lot of time to find the most strategically logical and tactically precise responses; it makes more sense to play reasonable moves and head for familar structures, and then do do some research at home later.

As to preparation, I suggest that De La Villa's approach (pretty much echoing Shereshevsky in The Soviet Chess Conveyer) makes a lot of sense:

prepare main lines against main lines;
prepare sound side lines against sound side lines;
prepare refutations against unsound lines.

1 e4 c5 2 Bc4 reveals White's hand rather early and Black should have no problem equalizing. After Black plays 2...e6, instead of pursuing his birthright -the initiative - White has to focus on preventing Black from exploiting the position of the bishop by ...d5 or ...b5. It is little use for White to try to transpose to an Open Sicilian with 3 Nf3; White would not normally play an early Bc4 against the Kan/Paulsen/Taimanov; it makes a lot of difference that Black has not played (and probably will not play) an early ...d6.

1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 d6 3 Bc4 is a lot better and indeed is a respectable form of Anti-Sicilian that has been played occasionally, with some success,  by many GMs, including Adams, Morozevich, Svidler and Benjamin. Black is OK if he knows what he is doing, but so is White, who can generally reach a sound and easy-to-play Ruy Lopez set-up with c3, d3, Bb3, 0-0 in some order. It can also be viewed as a sort of Kopek system with the white bishop retreating c4-b3 rather than d3-c2.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
berniethebolt
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1
Joined: 12/28/09
Re: 1 e4 c5 2 Bc4
Reply #16 - 12/28/09 at 08:43:16
Post Tools
Librarian wrote on 11/17/09 at 07:38:00:
Everybody laughs at this line, myself included (does it even have a name?). But in Marin's book 1 c4 e5, he calls the line 2 g3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6 4 Bg2 Bc5 the Karpov variation (is this standard?) and claims that it's very hard to prove an advantage against it.
So does black have a better system after 1 e4 c5 2 Bc4 than playing a reversed Karpov variation?


I am currently playing the Modern (Robatsch) Defence after playing nothing other than the Staunton System for a few years.   During my Staunton period, I was struck by the number of times 1.e4 c5  2.Bc4 would crop up (usually coupled with Nf3, Ng5, Qf3 and sometimes diverting to Nc3, Bf4 to target my c7 instead !) … and so I came up with a system of replies for whichever route the attack took, and I was always comfortable with this.   I now find that I am using the same system in many of my Modern Defence games.   As a absolute novice on ’book openings’ I’d be pleased to see any comments concerning my efforts 

1.e4 c5  2.Bc4 g6  3.Nf3 Bg7  4.Ng5 e6  5.d3 Nc6  6.Qf3  0-0

1.e4 c5  2.Bc4 g6  3.Nc3 Bg7  4.d3 e6  5.Bf4 d6 6.Nb5 e5/Be5
               
1.e4 c5  2.Bc4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7  4.Nf3 Nc6  5.d3 d6  6.Ng5 e6  7.Qf3 Nf6

1.e4 c5  2.Bc4 g6  3.Nc3 Bg7  4.Nf3 Nc6  5.d3 d6  6.Bf4 Nf6

1.e4 c5  2.Bc4 g6  3.Qf3 e6  4.Nh3 Bg7  5.d3 Ne7  6.Ng5 0-0

1.e4 c5  2.Bc4 g6  3.Nf3 Bg7  4.Ng5 e6  5.Qf3 *Nf6 6.d3 0-0
reference 5.…Nf6, however, after seeing a game in which this move came ‘unstuck’ I switched to 5.…Nh6.   
The sequence in the game I found is :   

1.e4 c5  2.Bc4 g6  3.Nf3 Bg7  4.Ng5 e6  5.Qf3 *Nf6 6.Nc3 0-0  7.Qh3 d5  8.Bb   dxe4  9.Ncxe4 e5  10.Nxf6  QxNf6  11.Qxf7#





  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bragesjo
God Member
*****
Offline


Long live the Nimzo Indian

Posts: 1564
Location: Eskilstuna
Joined: 06/30/06
Gender: Male
Re: 1 e4 c5 2 Bc4
Reply #15 - 12/17/09 at 10:03:47
Post Tools
TonyRo wrote on 12/15/09 at 14:35:20:
Bragesjo,

Give that you're a Dragon player, after 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4 e6 3. Nf3, what do you play here, when White threatens 4. d4?


Sorry , I did not see this post. Are there somethinng wrong with d5 since most of my opponnets plays Nc3? 
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: 1 e4 c5 2 Bc4
Reply #14 - 12/16/09 at 20:41:48
Post Tools
I understand, and really, OTB I am as likely to go that way as the other.  Once upon a time I was playing the Caro regularly and someone sprang the BDG on me.  I just played 2...c6.  Yeah, he gambited anyway but I was better.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
chk
God Member
*****
Offline


a pawn is a pawn

Posts: 1063
Location: Athens
Joined: 10/26/06
Gender: Male
Re: 1 e4 c5 2 Bc4
Reply #13 - 12/16/09 at 18:28:55
Post Tools
tbh, that made me laugh!  Cheesy

@Markovich: yes, I have noticed in the past that we share a different philosophy re opening repertoires. I am minimalistic, practical etc. Of course that has to do a lot with our difference in strength (markovich>chk, but maybe markovich=chk on an inspired day Grin) and also you playing a lot of correspondence. I am an OTB 'beast'.. so I cut a lot of corners.

I gave my comment above, since I believe there are many chess friends here that share my philosophy in opening repertoires. Also the Whites may be willing to know what most Black players will be prepared to answer to the various early-Bc4 lines..
  

"I play honestly and I play to win. If I lose, I take my medicine." - Bobby
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Fllg
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 630
Joined: 05/30/09
Gender: Male
Re: 1 e4 c5 2 Bc4
Reply #12 - 12/16/09 at 16:58:28
Post Tools
tbh = to be honest ?  Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: 1 e4 c5 2 Bc4
Reply #11 - 12/16/09 at 14:19:48
Post Tools
Funny, I don't find a post by "tbh."  My own frame of mind is that a sub-optimal move by the opponent should always be exploited, even if this means spurning a transposition into a variation that one feels at home in.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
chk
God Member
*****
Offline


a pawn is a pawn

Posts: 1063
Location: Athens
Joined: 10/26/06
Gender: Male
Re: 1 e4 c5 2 Bc4
Reply #10 - 12/16/09 at 08:53:43
Post Tools
tbh, I fail to see the point of this discussion: If you are a Najdorf player you will try to transpose to the 6. Bc4 lines, if you play the Dragon, well, you will play ...the Dragon.

I just don't think the typical, practical Black player has any reason to deviate from his/her usual repertoire. Sometimes I may play a Paulsen instead of the Najdorf (when meeting 2. Bc4) but that's all..
  

"I play honestly and I play to win. If I lose, I take my medicine." - Bobby
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
RdC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 838
Joined: 05/17/08
Re: 1 e4 c5 2 Bc4
Reply #9 - 12/15/09 at 21:27:24
Post Tools
There's a couple of tricks. The move order 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 d6 3 c3 Nf6 4 Bc4 is more likely to set them up though (because of 2 .. e6). The first point is that taking on e4 is unclear since the pawn can be regained by Qa4, Bxf7+ and Qxe4. The second is that after the plausible 4 .. Nc6 5 Qe2 Bg4 6 h3 Bh5 7 g4 Bg6 8 g5, the reply 8 .. Nxe4 loses a piece to 9 Bd5 because the Knight is trapped. Rybka though reckons it's nearly equal after 9 .. Nxf2 despite the piece.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TonyRo
God Member
*****
Offline


I'm gonna crack your skull!

Posts: 1739
Location: Cleveland, OH
Joined: 11/26/07
Gender: Male
Re: 1 e4 c5 2 Bc4
Reply #8 - 12/15/09 at 14:35:20
Post Tools
Bragesjo,

Give that you're a Dragon player, after 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4 e6 3. Nf3, what do you play here, when White threatens 4. d4?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: 1 e4 c5 2 Bc4
Reply #7 - 12/15/09 at 14:27:36
Post Tools
Apropos of 2.Bc4, I've been playing some Scheveningen games with 2...e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6.  What to do after 3.Nc3 is a problem, since for example, 3...Nc6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 e6 6.Be3 Nf6 7.Bc4 and I have to face a Sozin/Velimirovic, which I don't have to do via my preferred move order (where my b8 knight hangs back and, in case of Bc4-Bb3, comes out on a6). 

So instead of 3...Nc6 I would prefer 3...d6 when White has, among other moves, 4.Bc4 which perhaps is a little stronger with Black's d-pawn committed to d6, e.g. 4...a6 5.a4 and it's a mess.  I don't suppose that Black has much to worry about, but on the other hand his game doesn't look that inspiring to me.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Green
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


Tomorrow never comes

Posts: 5
Joined: 12/10/09
Re: 1 e4 c5 2 Bc4
Reply #6 - 12/13/09 at 08:41:56
Post Tools
In Fighting the Anti-Sicillians, Palliser devotes just one sentence to 2.Bc4. He says that after 2...e6 black equalizes comfortably. I agree with TN. 2.Nf3 d6 3.Bc4 would be the stiffer test, but even then I think that black should equalize fairly easily.
  

Revenge may be sweet, but candy is sweeter! Cheesy
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TN
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 3420
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: 1 e4 c5 2 Bc4
Reply #5 - 11/22/09 at 05:20:53
Post Tools
If White wants to play in this manner, he should play 2.Nf3 first, and then meet 2...d6 with 3.Bc4, so that Black cannot play ...d5 in one turn. This doesn't change the overall evaluation of the line, but at least forces Black to find a few good moves to secure equality. I can't remember the equaliser exactly, but I recall that Black plays ...Nf6/...e6/...Nc6/...Be7/...0-0/...d5 in some order, perhaps with ...a6 thrown in.
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bragesjo
God Member
*****
Offline


Long live the Nimzo Indian

Posts: 1564
Location: Eskilstuna
Joined: 06/30/06
Gender: Male
Re: 1 e4 c5 2 Bc4
Reply #4 - 11/21/09 at 19:20:15
Post Tools
Bc4 is genrelly given as bad since black can play e6 blunting the Bishop and quickly equalise in a few moves. Whites best after e6 is probely 3 Nc3 to prevent d5. Black can then play a6 when a4 is more or less forced. White players can later transpose to a open sicilian setup but in my experice at internet ches they will rarley do that since Bc4 is often not the most optimal move agianst e6 sicilians.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Fausto Alava-Moreno
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love Holistic Chess!!

Posts: 160
Location: Oviedo, SPAIN
Joined: 04/24/08
Gender: Male
Re: 1 e4 c5 2 Bc4
Reply #3 - 11/17/09 at 10:57:24
Post Tools

I have faced this 2.Bc4 line in some correspondence games.

May be used as a surprise weapon, but I use to play 2... e6 in order to play normal black setup (sometimes the game finally follows the Schevenigen Sicilian).

Do not be afraid of 2.Bc4, but the bishop at c4 square is a useful piece in many Open Sicilian Variations.
  

--

Best regards, Fausto.
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Librarian
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


FM

Posts: 24
Joined: 06/06/08
Re: 1 e4 c5 2 Bc4
Reply #2 - 11/17/09 at 10:42:00
Post Tools
OK, thanks! Wikipedia has the following information on this:

Quote:
2.Bc4 (the Bowdler Attack), though once played at the highest level, is popular today only among club players or beginners who are unfamiliar with the Sicilian and are looking either to attack the weak f7 pawn or to prepare for a quick kingside castle. However, after a move such as 2...e6, Black will soon play ...d5 and open up the centre while gaining time by attacking the bishop. Anderssen-Wyvill, London 1851 continued 2..e6 3.Nc3 a6 4.a4 Nc6 5.d3 g6 6.Nge2 Bg7 7.0-0 Nge7 8.f4 0-0 9.Bd2 d5 10.Bb3 Nd4 11.Nxd4, and now Soltis recommends 11...cxd4! 12.Ne2 Bd7!


I'm aware of the different philosophies, but still it's a good idea to analyse these openings from both perspectives - I remember Watson going on at length about the differences of 1 c4 e5 2 g3 c6 (accelerated Keres) and the Alapin. IIRC Yusopov and Dvoretski have a chapter on openings with reversed colors, too. 
I didn't know about this particular instance.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
chk
God Member
*****
Offline


a pawn is a pawn

Posts: 1063
Location: Athens
Joined: 10/26/06
Gender: Male
Re: 1 e4 c5 2 Bc4
Reply #1 - 11/17/09 at 09:32:53
Post Tools
The reversed Sicilian has a different philosophy than the proper one, so I wouldn't necessarily try to compare them.

On 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4 e6 and you have a normal Sicilian where I think Black will quickly equalise in all possible variations. I think we had some discussion about this system some time ago (you can check that through the 'search' function)..
  

"I play honestly and I play to win. If I lose, I take my medicine." - Bobby
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Librarian
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


FM

Posts: 24
Joined: 06/06/08
1 e4 c5 2 Bc4
11/17/09 at 07:38:00
Post Tools
Everybody laughs at this line, myself included (does it even have a name?). But in Marin's book 1 c4 e5, he calls the line 2 g3 Nf6 3 Nc3 Nc6 4 Bg2 Bc5 the Karpov variation (is this standard?) and claims that it's very hard to prove an advantage against it.
So does black have a better system after 1 e4 c5 2 Bc4 than playing a reversed Karpov variation?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo