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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) State of the Art of Dragon Theory (Read 24694 times)
papacamilla
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Re: State of the Art of Dragon Theory
Reply #27 - 11/05/10 at 17:35:54
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Added the line beginning with 9. 0-0-0 d5 10. Qe1 to your file.
  
Dragon_001.pgn ( 2 KB | Downloads )
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Re: State of the Art of Dragon Theory
Reply #26 - 06/07/10 at 12:24:37
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So why don't you tell us these better moves then, Ufuk?
  
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Re: State of the Art of Dragon Theory
Reply #25 - 06/01/10 at 00:15:09
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bragesjo wrote on 12/02/09 at 10:58:13:
gewgaw wrote on 12/02/09 at 09:59:02:
bragesjo wrote on 12/01/09 at 12:07:34:
PatzerNoster wrote on 11/30/09 at 22:59:06:
bragesjo wrote on 11/30/09 at 15:34:35:
9.Bc4 Bd7 10.Bb3 Rc8 11 0-0-0 Be5 12 Kb1 a6 can be mentioend as well. It does not  have a name but forum member Swiss Dragon suggested this move and after that Carlsen played it in several games and it was even played once by Radjabov. Maybee we can call it "Swiss variation" or "Carlsen variation". While black appears to be struggeling there at the moment but things can change and the draw game between Anand and Carlsen could even be reached via a Solits move order where whites most dangeorus moves in both Solits and a6 line are ruled out.


Can you tell me why black is struggling there? I thought Topalov-Carlsen was considered OK for black and after Khalifman's 17.f4 Nc4 18.Bxc4 Rxc4 19.f5 e5 20.fxe6 fxe6 21.Qd3 Rd4:!? might be playable for black (as stated somewhere here on the forum).


I agree the Khalifmans improvment is unconvicing but de La Villas improvment in Dismantling the Sicilian is more difficult to crack.

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2
Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. Bb3 Rc8 11. O-O-O Ne5 12. Kb1 a6 13. h4 h5 14. g4 hxg4 15.
h5 Nxh5 16. Rdg1 Rc5 17. Bh6 Kh7 18. Bxg7 Kxg7 19. f4 Nc4 20. Bxc4 Rxc4 21. f5
e5 22. fxe6 fxe6 23. b3 {according to de la Villa black is forced to sac the
exchange for unsufficent compensation with whites attacking is still going on
and I cant fault him} *


How about 16. ...Qa5!?
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3
Bg7 7. f3 Nc6 8. Qd2 O-O 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. Bb3 Rc8 11. O-O-O Ne5 12. Kb1 {last
book move} a6 13. h4 h5 14. g4 hxg4 15. h5 Nxh5 16. Rdg1 Qa5 17. Nd5
Qxd2 18. Nxe7+ Kh7 19. Bxd2 Rce8 20. fxg4 Bxg4 21. Nef5 gxf5 22. Nxf5 Bf6 23.
Ng3 Nf3 24. Nxh5 Nxd2+ 25. Ka1 Nxb3+ 26. axb3 Kg6 27. Rxg4+ Bg5



[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "New game"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[PlyCount "43"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2
Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. Bb3 Rc8 11. O-O-O Ne5 12. Kb1 a6 13. h4 h5 14. g4 hxg4 15.
h5 Nxh5 16. Rdg1 Qa5 17. Bh6 Bf6 18. fxg4 Bxg4 (18... Nxg4 19. Nf5 {with a
crushing attack}) 19. Bf4 {recommended by both Khalifman and de la Villa} (19.
Bxf8 Kxf8 20. Qe3 Rxc3 {black won in Karjakin-Radjabov}) 19... Nc4 (19... e6
20. Bxe5 Qxe5 21. Rxg4 Qxd4 22. Qh6 Bg7 23. Rxg6 fxg6 24. Bxe6+ Rf7 25. Qxg6
Qf6 26. Qxf6 Bxf6 27. Bxc8) (19... Rxc3 20. bxc3 Nxf4 21. Qxf4 Qxc3 22. Qh6 Re8
23. Rxg4 e6 24. Rf4 Nc4 (24... Nd3 25. cxd3 Qxd4 {is even worse}) 25. Bxc4 Qxd4
26. Rxf6 (26. e5 Qxe5 27. Kc1 {is also good for white according to Khalfman} d5
28. Bd3 Qg5 29. Bxg6 Qxh6) 26... Qxf6 27. Bb3 {with a advatage to white 
(Khalifman)}) 20. Qh2 Bxd4 21. Rxg4 Kg7 (21... Bg7 22. Rg5 e5 23. Rxh5) 22.
Qxh5 *



Can u tell me how do you make your analyse? I don´t understand your moves. My brain and my engine give me better moves for black!
  
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XChess1971
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Re: State of the Art of Dragon Theory
Reply #24 - 12/28/09 at 05:41:46
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Ok I did a little research, and I got this conclusion:

After 13.a3 a5 white has 4 options:

1) 14.Nd5 transposing to a variation of the normal 13.Nd5. (It could be the most challenging maybe after all.)
2) 14.e5
3) 14.Rhe1

4) 14.Kb1 the debated one could follow 14...b4 15.axb4 axb4 16.Na2 and here:

4.1) 16...Be6 suggested before.
4.2) 16...Ra8 mentioned by me before after 17.Qxb4 turns complicated. Hopefully black will get compensation.
4.3) 16...Qc7
4.4) 16...Qa5

Well what can I say?. Still, there is room for investigation I guess.

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "New game"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[PlyCount "52"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2
Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. Bb3 Rc8 11. O-O-O Nxd4 12. Bxd4 b5 13. a3 {
not mentioned in any of my books and discs} a5 14. Kb1 {this position is
considred by Dearing in Play the Sicilian Dragon via a Kb1 move order.
Rogozenko only mentioen that black get good play in this position but does not
give any lines} (14. Nd5 {0-1 Ulker,A-Bayram,Y/Ankara 2007 (26)}) (14. e5 {
1/2-1/2 Vandevoort,P-Ahn,M/Belgium 2005 (17)}) (14. Rhe1 {
1/2-1/2 Pineda,J-Berza,I/ICCF 2008 (42)}) 14... b4 (14... Rb8 $2 15. e5) (14...
Re8 $6 {Ein uberflussiger Zug. In manchen Varianten nimmt der Turm nun dem Sf6
das Feld e8. Auserdem ist f7 nun nicht mehr so gut uberdeckt.} 15. h4 b4 16.
axb4 axb4 17. Na2 ({Nach} 17. Nd5 Nxd5 18. Bxg7 Kxg7 {
droht Schwarz stark 19...Da5 und 20...Ta8, z.B.} 19. Qxd5 (19. Bxd5 $2 Qa5)
19... Rc5 $1 20. Qxf7+ Kh8 21. Qf4 Qa5 22. Bd5 Rc7 $40) 17... Qa5 (17... Be6 $5
) 18. Qxb4 Qa8 (18... Qa6 $5) (18... Ra8 $5) 19. e5 Rb8 20. Qa3 ({Nicht} 20.
Qd2 $2 dxe5 21. Bxe5 $2 Rxb3 $1 22. cxb3 Bf5+ 23. Ka1 (23. Kc1 Rc8+ 24. Nc3 (
24. Bc3 Qxa2 $19) 24... Qa1#) 23... Qxa2+ 24. Kxa2 Ra8+ 25. Qa5 Rxa5#) 20...
Qxa3 21. bxa3 dxe5 22. Bxe5 Rb7 (22... Ra8 $4 23. Bxf6 $18) 23. Nb4 $16 {
Das Hauptsorgenkind des Schwarzen ist der in der Luft hangende Ld7.} Ra8 24.
Bb2 Rba7 25. Rhe1 Rxa3 $5 {
Durch diese Gewaltaktion mochte Schwarz den Lg7 zum Leben erwecken.} (25... e6
$16) 26. Bxa3 Rxa3 27. Kb2 Ra8 28. c3 {Weis mus nun noch einige kleine
Gemeinheiten beachten, bis sich schlieslich der Materialvorteil durchsetzt.} (
28. Rxe7 $2 Nd5+) 28... e6 29. Ra1 Rc8 30. Ra7 Nd5 31. Nxd5 exd5 32. Rd1 (32.
Rc1 Be6 33. Ra5 $2 (33. Ra6 $142) 33... d4 $132) 32... Bxc3+ 33. Ka3 Be6 34.
Bxd5 Bxd5 35. Rxd5 $18 Rc6 36. h5 gxh5 37. Rxh5 h6 38. Kb3 Kg7 39. Ra4 Bf6 40.
Rg4+ Kh7 41. Rf5 Kh8 42. Kb4 Kh7 43. Kb5 Rd6 44. Kc4 Ra6 45. Kd3 Ra3+ 46. Ke2
Ra6 47. Kf2 Rb6 48. Kg3 Ra6 49. Kh3 Rb6 50. Ra5 Rb7 51. Ra6 Bg7 52. Rf4 Rc7 53.
Rf5 Rb7 54. Kg4 Rc7 55. f4 Rb7 56. g3 Rc7 57. Rfa5 Rc4 58. Rd5 Rc7 59. Rad6 Rc4
60. Kh5 Rc3 61. Rd3 Rc5+ 62. R6d5 Rc6 63. Rd7 Kg8 64. R3d6 Rc3 65. Kg4 Rc4 66.
Ra6 Rc5 67. Ra8+ {1-0 Timoshenko,G-Shahade,G/New York 1999/[Schulz,A] (67)}) (
14... Rb8 {'?' Schulz,A.} 15. e5 (15. Ne2 b4 16. axb4 axb4 17. e5 Qa5 18. Qe3
Ra8 19. Kc1 dxe5 20. Qxe5 Bh6+ 21. f4 Qxe5 22. Bxe5 Ne4 23. c3 Bg4 24. Rhe1 Nc5
25. Bd5 Ra1+ 26. Kd2 Rxd1+ 27. Rxd1 bxc3+ 28. bxc3 e6 29. Bf3 Bxf3 30. gxf3
Rd8+ 31. Ke1 Rxd1+ 32. Kxd1 Bg7 33. Nc1 f6 34. Bd4 Nd7 35. Kc2 e5 36. fxe5 fxe5
37. Be3 Kf7 38. Nb3 Ke6 39. Kd3 Bf8 40. Kc4 Bd6 {
0-1 Aliev,E-Abdulov,O/Baku 2003 (40)}) 15... Ne8 16. exd6 Nxd6 17. Bxg7 Kxg7
18. Rhe1 Bc6 19. Bd5 Bxd5 20. Nxd5 e5 21. Ne3 Nb7 22. Qc3 Qe8 23. f4 f6 24.
fxe5 fxe5 25. Ng4 Rc8 26. Qxe5+ Qxe5 27. Rd7+ Rf7 28. Rxf7+ Kxf7 29. Nxe5+ Kf6
30. Nd7+ Kf7 31. Re5 Nd6 32. b3 a4 33. Kb2 axb3 34. cxb3 Rd8 35. Nc5 Nf5 36.
Kc3 Rd1 37. Nd3 Nd6 38. a4 bxa4 39. bxa4 Ra1 40. a5 Ra3+ 41. Kd4 Nf5+ 42. Kc4
Nd6+ 43. Kd4 Nf5+ {1/2-1/2 Sanz Alonso,F-Kopczynski,M/Warsaw POL 2008 (43)})
15. axb4 axb4 16. Na2 Qa5 {is only move mentioend by Dearing} (16... Be6 {
is a Rybka 3 suggestion and suggested by Shultz in an annotatiion of a game
'!?' '!?'} 17. Bxe6 fxe6 18. Qxb4 {
black wants to exchange darksquaered Bishops to get a grip at the f4 square}
Nh5 (18... Rb8 19. Qc4 Qd7 20. Nb4 {is good for white} Rfc8 21. Qb3 Nh5 22.
Rhe1) (18... Ra8 19. Rd3 (19. Qc4 Qd7 20. Nb4 Rfc8 21. Qb3 Nxe4 22. Bxg7 Nc5
23. Qc3 Na6 24. Qb3 Nxb4 25. Qxb4 Kxg7 26. Qd4+ Kg8) 19... Nh5 20. Bxg7 Kxg7
21. Ra3 (21. g3 e5 22. Re1 Qc7 23. Ra3 Rab8 24. Qd2 Rb7 25. Nc3 Nf6) 21... e5)
19. Bxg7 (19. c3 Ra8 20. Bxg7 Kxg7 21. Qc4 e5 22. Nb4 Qd7 23. Nd5 Qa7 24. Qc7
Qa2+ 25. Kc2 Rab8 26. Nb4 Qf7 27. Nd5 Rfe8 {unclear}) 19... Kxg7) (16... Ra8
17. Qxb4 Qc8 {is an interesting line} 18. Rhe1 (18. e5 dxe5 19. Bxe5 Be6 20.
Rhe1 Qa6 21. Bxe6 fxe6 22. Qa3 Qxa3 23. bxa3 Rxa3 24. Nb4 Rc8 25. Rd4 Ra5 26.
Nd3 Ra7) 18... Be6 19. Bxe6 Qxe6 20. Qb3 Qd7 21. e5 dxe5 22. Bxe5 Qa7 {
black has compensation}) (16... Qc7 17. Nxb4 Ra8 18. Nd5 Nxd5 19. exd5 Bxd4 20.
Qxd4 Rfb8 21. g4 Qa5 22. Kc1 Rb4 23. Qe3 Qa1+ 24. Kd2 Qxb2 25. Rb1 Qf6 26. g5
Qf4 27. Qxf4 Rxf4 28. Ke3 Rh4 29. Kf2 Bf5 30. Kg3 Rb4 31. Ra1 Rxa1 32. Rxa1 Rb7
33. Kf2 Rc7 34. Ra2 e6 35. c4 Kf8 36. Ra8+ Ke7 37. Ba4 f6 38. gxf6+ Kxf6 39.
Bc6 Bd3 40. Ra4 g5 41. Ke3 Bc2 42. Rb4 exd5 43. Bxd5 Ke5 44. Rb8 Bg6 45. Rb5
Rc5 46. Rb7 Bf5 47. Re7+ Kf6 48. Rf7+ Ke5 49. Re7+ Kf6 {
1/2-1/2 Sulc,G-Solic,K/Djakovo 2006 (49)}) 17. Qxb4 {only move mentioned} (17.
Rhe1 {may be an improvment}) 17... Qa6 18. c4 (18. Qb6 {
is given as an improment} Qa8 19. Qa7 Qc6 {
analyse ends here without any assesments}) 18... Ra8 (18... Rb8 {
is Rybka preferences} 19. Qc3 Be6 {
black has enourmues preusure and Rybka calls it close to winning}) 19. Kc2 $2 (
19. Qc3 {is a better try but after} Rfb8 {black has all play}) 19... Rfb8 20.
Qc3 Rxb3 21. Qd2 Qxc4+ 22. Bc3 Rxa2 23. Rb1 Nxe4 24. fxe4 Qxe4+ 25. Kxb3 Be6+
26. Qd5 Qa4# {0-1 Baragano Campa,D-Mamedov,R/Aviles 2002 (26)} *



bragesjo wrote on 12/27/09 at 15:50:38:
Home agian a day earlyer than expected so I have an engine agian for a couple of days. The line you gave is almost unmentioend by any books or discs and I only found three games where one was irrelevent for white played Nd5 instead of Na2. Blacks score was two wins and one defeat but to few games to draw any conclusions.

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "New game"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[PlyCount "38"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2
Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. Bb3 Rc8 11. O-O-O Nxd4 12. Bxd4 b5 13. a3 {not mentioned in
any of my books and discs} a5 14. Kb1 {this position is considred by Dearing
in Play the Sicilian Dragon via a Kb1 move order. Rogozenko only mentioen that
black get good play in this position but does not give any lines} b4 15. axb4
axb4 16. Na2 Qa5 {is only move mentioend by Dearing} (16... Be6 {is a Rybka 3
suggestion and suggested by Shultz in an annotatiion of a game} 17. Bxe6 fxe6
18. Qxb4 {black wants to exchange darksquaered Bishops to get a grip at the f4
square} Nh5 (18... Rb8 19. Qc4 Qd7 20. Nb4 {is good for white} Rfc8 21. Qb3 Nh5
22. Rhe1) (18... Ra8 19. Rd3 (19. Qc4 Qd7 20. Nb4 Rfc8 21. Qb3 Nxe4 22. Bxg7
Nc5 23. Qc3 Na6 24. Qb3 Nxb4 25. Qxb4 Kxg7 26. Qd4+ Kg8) 19... Nh5 20. Bxg7
Kxg7 21. Ra3 (21. g3 e5 22. Re1 Qc7 23. Ra3 Rab8 24. Qd2 Rb7 25. Nc3 Nf6) 21...
e5) 19. Bxg7 (19. c3 Ra8 20. Bxg7 Kxg7 21. Qc4 e5 22. Nb4 Qd7 23. Nd5 Qa7 24.
Qc7 Qa2+ 25. Kc2 Rab8 26. Nb4 Qf7 27. Nd5 Rfe8 {unclear}) 19... Kxg7) (16...
Ra8 17. Qxb4 Qc8 {is an interesting line} 18. Rhe1 (18. e5 dxe5 19. Bxe5 Be6
20. Rhe1 Qa6 21. Bxe6 fxe6 22. Qa3 Qxa3 23. bxa3 Rxa3 24. Nb4 Rc8 25. Rd4 Ra5
26. Nd3 Ra7) 18... Be6 19. Bxe6 Qxe6 20. Qb3 Qd7 21. e5 dxe5 22. Bxe5 Qa7 {
black has compensation}) 17. Qxb4 {only move mentioned} (17. Rhe1 {may be an
improvment}) 17... Qa6 18. c4 (18. Qb6 {is given as an improment} Qa8 19. Qa7
Qc6 {analyse ends here without any assesments}) 18... Ra8 (18... Rb8 {is Rybka
preferences} 19. Qc3 Be6 {black has enourmues preusure and Rybka calls it
close to winning}) 19. Kc2 $2 (19. Qc3 {is a better try but after} Rfb8 {black
has all play}) 19... Rfb8 {0-1 Baragano Campa - Mamedov 2002} *


  
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Re: State of the Art of Dragon Theory
Reply #23 - 12/27/09 at 15:50:38
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Home agian a day earlyer than expected so I have an engine agian for a couple of days. The line you gave is almost unmentioend by any books or discs and I only found three games where one was irrelevent for white played Nd5 instead of Na2. Blacks score was two wins and one defeat but to few games to draw any conclusions.

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "New game"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[PlyCount "38"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2
Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. Bb3 Rc8 11. O-O-O Nxd4 12. Bxd4 b5 13. a3 {not mentioned in
any of my books and discs} a5 14. Kb1 {this position is considred by Dearing
in Play the Sicilian Dragon via a Kb1 move order. Rogozenko only mentioen that
black get good play in this position but does not give any lines} b4 15. axb4
axb4 16. Na2 Qa5 {is only move mentioend by Dearing} (16... Be6 {is a Rybka 3
suggestion and suggested by Shultz in an annotatiion of a game} 17. Bxe6 fxe6
18. Qxb4 {black wants to exchange darksquaered Bishops to get a grip at the f4
square} Nh5 (18... Rb8 19. Qc4 Qd7 20. Nb4 {is good for white} Rfc8 21. Qb3 Nh5
22. Rhe1) (18... Ra8 19. Rd3 (19. Qc4 Qd7 20. Nb4 Rfc8 21. Qb3 Nxe4 22. Bxg7
Nc5 23. Qc3 Na6 24. Qb3 Nxb4 25. Qxb4 Kxg7 26. Qd4+ Kg8) 19... Nh5 20. Bxg7
Kxg7 21. Ra3 (21. g3 e5 22. Re1 Qc7 23. Ra3 Rab8 24. Qd2 Rb7 25. Nc3 Nf6) 21...
e5) 19. Bxg7 (19. c3 Ra8 20. Bxg7 Kxg7 21. Qc4 e5 22. Nb4 Qd7 23. Nd5 Qa7 24.
Qc7 Qa2+ 25. Kc2 Rab8 26. Nb4 Qf7 27. Nd5 Rfe8 {unclear}) 19... Kxg7) (16...
Ra8 17. Qxb4 Qc8 {is an interesting line} 18. Rhe1 (18. e5 dxe5 19. Bxe5 Be6
20. Rhe1 Qa6 21. Bxe6 fxe6 22. Qa3 Qxa3 23. bxa3 Rxa3 24. Nb4 Rc8 25. Rd4 Ra5
26. Nd3 Ra7) 18... Be6 19. Bxe6 Qxe6 20. Qb3 Qd7 21. e5 dxe5 22. Bxe5 Qa7 {
black has compensation}) 17. Qxb4 {only move mentioned} (17. Rhe1 {may be an
improvment}) 17... Qa6 18. c4 (18. Qb6 {is given as an improment} Qa8 19. Qa7
Qc6 {analyse ends here without any assesments}) 18... Ra8 (18... Rb8 {is Rybka
preferences} 19. Qc3 Be6 {black has enourmues preusure and Rybka calls it
close to winning}) 19. Kc2 $2 (19. Qc3 {is a better try but after} Rfb8 {black
has all play}) 19... Rfb8 {0-1 Baragano Campa - Mamedov 2002} *

  
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Re: State of the Art of Dragon Theory
Reply #22 - 12/25/09 at 11:06:01
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XChess1971 wrote on 12/25/09 at 05:27:53:
I have my doubts about the way that has been played the ...Nxd4 system like in the game Karjakin-Shirov where it was 10.0-0-0 Rc8 11.Bb3 Nxd4 12.Bxd4 b5. Why is that?. 

Because of 13.a3! a5 (Right eh? Or what?) 14.Kb1 a4 (14...b4 15.axb4! axb4 16.Na2 Ra8 17.Qxb4!) 15.Ba2 Rb8 16.Ne2 Be6 17.Bxe6 fxe6 18.h4 e5 19.Bc3 and white looks better.


I dont have access to any engine or books at the moment, but I have frankly not seen any games where white plays a3 or seen it mentioned in annotations at subscription part of this site. Hower in this system (invented by Topalov) black usually sacrifes a pawn for preusure agianst  queenside so intution suggests 14 .. b4 line. I will have a look at this on monday when I have access to books, databases and Rybka.
« Last Edit: 12/25/09 at 17:41:48 by bragesjo »  
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Re: State of the Art of Dragon Theory
Reply #21 - 12/25/09 at 05:27:53
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I have my doubts about the way that has been played the ...Nxd4 system like in the game Karjakin-Shirov where it was 10.0-0-0 Rc8 11.Bb3 Nxd4 12.Bxd4 b5. Why is that?. 

Because of 13.a3! a5 (Right eh? Or what?) 14.Kb1 a4 (14...b4 15.axb4! axb4 16.Na2 Ra8 17.Qxb4!) 15.Ba2 Rb8 16.Ne2 Be6 17.Bxe6 fxe6 18.h4 e5 19.Bc3 and white looks better.
Maybe should I consider again 10.Bb3 as the best move to avoid the "Chinese Dragon"?. Maybe not.

"10 0-0-0 allows Chinese Dragon, one of blacks best scoring lines in practise."<-------- I hope you are right on this Bragesjo. The time and further analisys will tell.

In the "Parma Variation" 10.Bb3 Nxd4 11.Bxd4 b5:

- About De La Villa's 12.h4 a5 13.a4. I have my doubts. 13...bxa4 14.Nxa4 Rb8 15.0-0 Qc7 16.Rfd1 Rb4 17.Bc3 Rb5 18.Qe1 Rd8!?. (I don't have "Dismantling the Sicilian".)

- 12. a4 b4 13. Nd5 Nxd5 14. Bxg7 Kxg7 15. exd5 Qb6 16. h4  (recommended by Khalifman). I'll wait for further investigations on 12.a4.


bragesjo wrote on 12/21/09 at 11:48:29:
10 0-0-0 allows Chinese Dragon, one of blacks best scoring lines in practise.

About Parma variation, I have played it myself a couple of times and I never realy liked the lines where white plays for a positonal edge. If white goes after blacks king black is fine like Stellwagen-Tiviakov.

The two most critical lines are (Khalifman line was considered harmless by any existinng pre books/discs)

[Event "Blitz:3'+1""]
[Site "Hewlett-Packard Company"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "New game"]
[Black "Rybka 3 32-bit"]
[Result "*"]
[PlyCount "25"]
[TimeControl "180+1"]

{128MB, Fritz10.ctg, 2.2 GHZ Dual Core 3 GB RAM} 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4
4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. Bb3 Nxd4
11. Bxd4 b5 12. h4 (12. a4 b4 13. Nd5 Nxd5 14. Bxg7 Kxg7 15. exd5 Qb6 16. h4 $1
{etc was recommended by Khalifman}) 12... a5 13. a4 {
was recommended in Dismatling the Sicilian} *




  
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Re: State of the Art of Dragon Theory
Reply #20 - 12/21/09 at 11:48:29
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10 0-0-0 allows Chinese Dragon, one of blacks best scoring lines in practise.

About Parma variation, I have played it myself a couple of times and I never realy liked the lines where white plays for a positonal edge. If white goes after blacks king black is fine like Stellwagen-Tiviakov.

The two most critical lines are (Khalifman line was considered harmless by any existinng pre books/discs)

[Event "Blitz:3'+1""]
[Site "Hewlett-Packard Company"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "New game"]
[Black "Rybka 3 32-bit"]
[Result "*"]
[PlyCount "25"]
[TimeControl "180+1"]

{128MB, Fritz10.ctg, 2.2 GHZ Dual Core 3 GB RAM} 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4
4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. Bb3 Nxd4
11. Bxd4 b5 12. h4 (12. a4 b4 13. Nd5 Nxd5 14. Bxg7 Kxg7 15. exd5 Qb6 16. h4 $1
{etc was recommended by Khalifman}) 12... a5 13. a4 {
was recommended in Dismatling the Sicilian} *



  
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Re: State of the Art of Dragon Theory
Reply #19 - 12/20/09 at 01:06:26
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1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. Bb3 Rc8 11. O-O-O Ne5 12. Kb1 a6 13. h4 h5 14. g4 hxg4 15.h5 Nxh5 16. Rdg1 Rc5 17. Bh6 suppodsedly is good.

But 17.f4!  Nc4 18.Bxc4 Rxc4 19.f5 e5 (19...Nf8 20.Bh6; 19...Re8 20.Rxg4!) 20.Nde2! (not a chance of freedom for black) Bc6 (20...Nf6 21.Bh6!; 20...Re8 21.b3 Rxc3 22.Nxc3; 20...Nf4 21.Nxf4 exf4 22.Qh2; 20...Rxe4 21.Nxe4 Bxf5 22.Nxd6; 20...b5 21.Bg5 Qa5 22.fxg6 fxg6 23.Qxd6) 21.Bg5! Nf6 (21...Qb6 22.fxg6 fxg6 23.Qxd6; 21...f6 22.Bh6; 21...Qc7 22.Rxg4; 21...Qd7 22.Bh6, etc.) 22.Ng3! with attack!
  
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Re: State of the Art of Dragon Theory
Reply #18 - 12/19/09 at 23:14:26
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If you want to do the move order. Probably it is better 10.0-0-0 to try to crack down black. 10.Bb3 gives black 10...Nxd4 enough for equality. 10.h4 h5!. So 10.0-0-0 should be the one to look for advantage to white.
Initially I thought of 10.Bb3 as the best move until I found that the "Parma" variation is enough to control white's intentions. I have played it in correspondence, and I can assure that.
The point is what's better after 10.0-0-0????
  
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Re: State of the Art of Dragon Theory
Reply #17 - 12/05/09 at 19:44:56
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About Sax variation, it can also be reached with Kb1 and Re8 inserted when the insertings favors white. However black is still fine as long as he knows what he is doing.

  
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Re: State of the Art of Dragon Theory
Reply #16 - 12/03/09 at 14:26:02
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There is also a line that goes

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. Bb3 Rc8 11 0-0-0 Ne5 12 Bg5, acording to Andrew Martin it was invented by a player called Sax so we can call it Sax variation. 

An other line is the dubios (but common at ameutur levels) 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. Bb3 Rc8 11 0-0-0 Ne5 12 Bh6 Bxh6 13 Qxh6 Rxc3 14 bxc3 sicne after Korchnois a5! black gets a strong attack. Maybee we can call it Korchnoi variation. If whites king had been at b1 and blacks f rook at e8 we would have reached Karjakin-Ivanchuk 2007 draw.

In practical play I have also meet 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10 g4!?

and 9.Bc4 Bd7 10.O-O-O Rc8 11.Bb3 Ne5 12.g4? b5!
  
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Re: State of the Art of Dragon Theory
Reply #15 - 12/02/09 at 10:58:13
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gewgaw wrote on 12/02/09 at 09:59:02:
bragesjo wrote on 12/01/09 at 12:07:34:
PatzerNoster wrote on 11/30/09 at 22:59:06:
bragesjo wrote on 11/30/09 at 15:34:35:
9.Bc4 Bd7 10.Bb3 Rc8 11 0-0-0 Be5 12 Kb1 a6 can be mentioend as well. It does not  have a name but forum member Swiss Dragon suggested this move and after that Carlsen played it in several games and it was even played once by Radjabov. Maybee we can call it "Swiss variation" or "Carlsen variation". While black appears to be struggeling there at the moment but things can change and the draw game between Anand and Carlsen could even be reached via a Solits move order where whites most dangeorus moves in both Solits and a6 line are ruled out.


Can you tell me why black is struggling there? I thought Topalov-Carlsen was considered OK for black and after Khalifman's 17.f4 Nc4 18.Bxc4 Rxc4 19.f5 e5 20.fxe6 fxe6 21.Qd3 Rd4:!? might be playable for black (as stated somewhere here on the forum).


I agree the Khalifmans improvment is unconvicing but de La Villas improvment in Dismantling the Sicilian is more difficult to crack.

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2
Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. Bb3 Rc8 11. O-O-O Ne5 12. Kb1 a6 13. h4 h5 14. g4 hxg4 15.
h5 Nxh5 16. Rdg1 Rc5 17. Bh6 Kh7 18. Bxg7 Kxg7 19. f4 Nc4 20. Bxc4 Rxc4 21. f5
e5 22. fxe6 fxe6 23. b3 {according to de la Villa black is forced to sac the
exchange for unsufficent compensation with whites attacking is still going on
and I cant fault him} *


How about 16. ...Qa5!?
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3
Bg7 7. f3 Nc6 8. Qd2 O-O 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. Bb3 Rc8 11. O-O-O Ne5 12. Kb1 {last
book move} a6 13. h4 h5 14. g4 hxg4 15. h5 Nxh5 16. Rdg1 Qa5 17. Nd5
Qxd2 18. Nxe7+ Kh7 19. Bxd2 Rce8 20. fxg4 Bxg4 21. Nef5 gxf5 22. Nxf5 Bf6 23.
Ng3 Nf3 24. Nxh5 Nxd2+ 25. Ka1 Nxb3+ 26. axb3 Kg6 27. Rxg4+ Bg5



[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "New game"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[PlyCount "43"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2
Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. Bb3 Rc8 11. O-O-O Ne5 12. Kb1 a6 13. h4 h5 14. g4 hxg4 15.
h5 Nxh5 16. Rdg1 Qa5 17. Bh6 Bf6 18. fxg4 Bxg4 (18... Nxg4 19. Nf5 {with a
crushing attack}) 19. Bf4 {recommended by both Khalifman and de la Villa} (19.
Bxf8 Kxf8 20. Qe3 Rxc3 {black won in Karjakin-Radjabov}) 19... Nc4 (19... e6
20. Bxe5 Qxe5 21. Rxg4 Qxd4 22. Qh6 Bg7 23. Rxg6 fxg6 24. Bxe6+ Rf7 25. Qxg6
Qf6 26. Qxf6 Bxf6 27. Bxc8) (19... Rxc3 20. bxc3 Nxf4 21. Qxf4 Qxc3 22. Qh6 Re8
23. Rxg4 e6 24. Rf4 Nc4 (24... Nd3 25. cxd3 Qxd4 {is even worse}) 25. Bxc4 Qxd4
26. Rxf6 (26. e5 Qxe5 27. Kc1 {is also good for white according to Khalfman} d5
28. Bd3 Qg5 29. Bxg6 Qxh6) 26... Qxf6 27. Bb3 {with a advatage to white 
(Khalifman)}) 20. Qh2 Bxd4 21. Rxg4 Kg7 (21... Bg7 22. Rg5 e5 23. Rxh5) 22.
Qxh5 *

  
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Re: State of the Art of Dragon Theory
Reply #14 - 12/02/09 at 09:59:02
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bragesjo wrote on 12/01/09 at 12:07:34:
PatzerNoster wrote on 11/30/09 at 22:59:06:
bragesjo wrote on 11/30/09 at 15:34:35:
9.Bc4 Bd7 10.Bb3 Rc8 11 0-0-0 Be5 12 Kb1 a6 can be mentioend as well. It does not  have a name but forum member Swiss Dragon suggested this move and after that Carlsen played it in several games and it was even played once by Radjabov. Maybee we can call it "Swiss variation" or "Carlsen variation". While black appears to be struggeling there at the moment but things can change and the draw game between Anand and Carlsen could even be reached via a Solits move order where whites most dangeorus moves in both Solits and a6 line are ruled out.


Can you tell me why black is struggling there? I thought Topalov-Carlsen was considered OK for black and after Khalifman's 17.f4 Nc4 18.Bxc4 Rxc4 19.f5 e5 20.fxe6 fxe6 21.Qd3 Rd4:!? might be playable for black (as stated somewhere here on the forum).


I agree the Khalifmans improvment is unconvicing but de La Villas improvment in Dismantling the Sicilian is more difficult to crack.

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2
Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. Bb3 Rc8 11. O-O-O Ne5 12. Kb1 a6 13. h4 h5 14. g4 hxg4 15.
h5 Nxh5 16. Rdg1 Rc5 17. Bh6 Kh7 18. Bxg7 Kxg7 19. f4 Nc4 20. Bxc4 Rxc4 21. f5
e5 22. fxe6 fxe6 23. b3 {according to de la Villa black is forced to sac the
exchange for unsufficent compensation with whites attacking is still going on
and I cant fault him} *


How about 16. ...Qa5!?
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3
Bg7 7. f3 Nc6 8. Qd2 O-O 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. Bb3 Rc8 11. O-O-O Ne5 12. Kb1 {last
book move} a6 13. h4 h5 14. g4 hxg4 15. h5 Nxh5 16. Rdg1 Qa5 17. Nd5
Qxd2 18. Nxe7+ Kh7 19. Bxd2 Rce8 20. fxg4 Bxg4 21. Nef5 gxf5 22. Nxf5 Bf6 23.
Ng3 Nf3 24. Nxh5 Nxd2+ 25. Ka1 Nxb3+ 26. axb3 Kg6 27. Rxg4+ Bg5

  
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Re: State of the Art of Dragon Theory
Reply #13 - 12/01/09 at 21:09:22
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Fausto Alava-Moreno wrote on 12/01/09 at 09:33:55:
Lines added to the PGN file I am preparing.

I suposse that when you write 9.Bc4 Bd7 you mean 9...O-O. Is that correct?

Or it's a better move order play 8....O-O and then 9...Bd7?

TN wrote on 12/01/09 at 09:28:18:
I suggest including 7...Nc6 8.Qd2 Bd7 9.0-0-0 Rc8 and 9.Bc4 Bd7 10.0-0-0 Na5, which usually transposes to the Chinese Dragon after 11.Bb3 but also has an independent branch of its own after 11.Be2. In that variation, De La Villa prefers White but I'm not 100% sure about this if Black plays 11...Rb8 and ...b5.



Sorry, I wasn't clear.

I was referring to 7...Nc6 8.Qd2 Bd7 9.0-0-0 Rc8 and 7...Nc6 8.Qd2 0-0 9.Bc4 Bd7 although the move order doesn't make any real difference, since Black's alternatives to 9...Bd7 in the second line are generally considered to be dubious. The first 9...Rc8 variation is considered much better for White by De La Villa, but I'm not enough of an expert in this line to know how accurate this assessment is.
  
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