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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Tarrasch in Black and White (Read 314389 times)
fling
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #627 - 03/13/13 at 09:15:51
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I bought the book. I haven't read much in it yet, but so far it is very good. I used it in a corr game and got a better position only to input the wrong move and then had to fight for a draw... But the analysis is excellent.

Anyway, I think it is unfair to judge a book with a title Grandmaster Repertoire in how well it is written for a club player, especially under 2000 (I belong to this group, btw). The explanations I have felt are clear enough for me, but I don't really expect to have a full repertoire that I can follow, because of the title! I won't remember all the analysis, of course, but I never expected that to begin with.
  
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proustiskeen
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #626 - 03/12/13 at 16:52:56
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I think there are move-order issues that remain unresolved.  GM10 gives 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.Nf3 cxd4, saying that this is "the most principled reply."  I suspect that 4...Nc6, while "[giving] us less choice," is much more in the spirit of the Tarrasch.  After 5.e3 a6 is a mistake, and 5...Nf6 only receives coverage after 6.cxd5 exd5 in ch 16.
  
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tony37
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #625 - 03/12/13 at 16:44:53
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about 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.e3 Nf6 5.Nf3 Nc6, GM10 gives 5...a6 which gives more flexibility compared to 5...Nc6
for example 5...a6 6.a3 (the main line after Nc6 but not so good here) dxc4 7.Bxc4 b5 8.Ba2 Bb7 9.O-O Nbd7! (which isn't possible with Nc6 played)
John Cox also recommends an early a6 against e3 in his anti-Benoni chapter of 'Dealing with d4 deviations' (but I guess 5...Nc6 is perfectly playable)
  
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proustiskeen
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #624 - 03/12/13 at 16:19:58
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I just put a review of GM10 up on my blog.  Interested parties may want to give it a read.

http://chessbookreviews.wordpress.com/2013/03/12/gm10/

Comments are always welcome, here or there.
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #623 - 10/04/12 at 10:36:12
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PANFR wrote on 10/03/12 at 20:56:24:
Actually he deviated from the book line (22...g6). I believe the reason is 23.Rd2 (not mentioned in the book) Rd8 24.Kf1, intending Ke1 and Bf1, when Black's position is rather unpleasant. Actually 23.Kf1 Rd8 24.Rd2 ends up to the same thing.


The 23.Rd2 line you mention was discussed here at the foroum and i provided 3 (if i remember correctly) ways to play for Black. Two of them are feaured in the Yearbook survey. Both Watson and Schandorff give the same game as the way forward for White, which is not at all a bad practical suggestion, but theoretically it gives no worries for Black. Actually both of these authors admit the same thing!
  
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kylemeister
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #622 - 10/03/12 at 21:13:50
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That is disputed by Aagaard and Ametanoitos in the latest Yearbook.
  
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PANFR
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #621 - 10/03/12 at 20:56:24
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Problems for Black in the 9.Bg5 c4 mainline as well.
Akobian failed to solve his opening problems in the old 12...Qa5 variation when he played it against Mamedyarov, while Aagard had a hard time in the suggested 12...h6 variation:


Actually he deviated from the book line (22...g6). I believe the reason is 23.Rd2 (not mentioned in the book) Rd8 24.Kf1, intending Ke1 and Bf1, when Black's position is rather unpleasant. Actually 23.Kf1 Rd8 24.Rd2 ends up to the same thing.
  
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WSS
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #620 - 05/12/12 at 23:22:09
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PANFR wrote on 05/10/12 at 18:48:21:
On the book page 251, 14.Nd2 Nxd2 15.Bxd2 Bd5?! looks suspect due to 16.Nxb6 ab6 17.e4!
So 15...0-0 is probably the better move to play, when Black is only marginally worse.


I was looking at lines after 15...0-0.  It appears that White maintains a slight edge (but I think Black is fine.)   16. Nxb6 axb6 (it seems this is superior to 16... Qxb6 as otherwise White can push his a and b pawns in some lines forcing the Queen to lose time.) 17. Bf4 Bd5; 18. Qd3 Bxg2; 19. Kxg2 Qd5+ (not 19...g5; 20. Qb3+ and Black's King position becomes a problem later) 20. f3 b5; 21. Rfd1 Ra4; 22. Rac1 Re8; 23. Rd2 Rc4 and so on.

Perhaps there is a better alternative earlier as you suggest.

Bill
  
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tp2205
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #619 - 05/12/12 at 17:16:24
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PANFR wrote on 05/12/12 at 14:38:38:
Yes, Black may draw this, but not before suffering for many, many moves, without any meaningful counterplay.
I'd rather look at 13...Bb6 more closely - defending this position is extremely unpleasant.


I assume you mean 12...Bb6. I still think I prefer White after 13.b4 Bf5 14.Bb2 f6 15 Rfd1 and perhaps Qb3 and Nd4, but at least the position remains fairly complicated.

Some unrelated comment.
On page 339 (1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.Nf3 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Nf6 6.cxd5 Nxd5 7.Bd2 Bc5 8.Nb3 Bb6 9.g3) a5 is given as an interesting attempt for Black. Only 10. Bg2 a4 is considered in the book but I think 10.Rc1 is a bit better for white. The idea is that after a4 11.Nxd5 exd5 12.Nc5 is possible (no need to play Nc1)
  
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PANFR
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #618 - 05/12/12 at 14:38:38
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Yes, Black may draw this, but not before suffering for many, many moves, without any meaningful counterplay.
I'd rather look at 13...Bb6 more closely - defending this position is extremely unpleasant.
  
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tp2205
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #617 - 05/12/12 at 14:08:27
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PANFR wrote on 05/11/12 at 12:43:46:
tp2205 wrote on 05/11/12 at 08:27:55:
How about 15...Bd5 16.Nxb6 Bxg2

How about Nxd4 14. Qxd4 Be6 followed by Bf6.


16...Bxg2 loses to 17.Nxa8 Bxf1 18.Qb3!
.


You are correct. I used the diagram given in the book but did not notice that Qd2 was played instead of Bd2.

Quote:
14...Be6 is simply answered by 15.Bf4 (15...Bf6 16.Be5) and this IQP middlegame is precisely what Black tries to avoid in the Tarrasch.


Again I must agree. I looked a the position more closely now. White is better but this may still be Black's best option after Nd4.
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #616 - 05/12/12 at 12:27:20
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How could i miss it? Halkias is from my country and his games have always been an inspiration for me. Also his insights, analysis and the stories he tells in this survey are excellent. On the other hand i didn't see his antidote to the Schandorff's line to be honest (in this ...Qa5 variation), but his coverage of the Ne5+f4 Rubinstein line was valuable.
  
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Markovich
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #615 - 05/12/12 at 11:20:36
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Nikos, I would not feel too bad about oversights in this book, which explores all sorts of new terrain in this defense. The value of this book is in its impetus to further exploration, which is just what is happening in this thread. Did you see the recent article in a NIC Yearbook upholding Black's cause in the ...c4  mainline, but without your proposed ...h6?
  

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Ametanoitos
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #614 - 05/11/12 at 22:56:11
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PANFR, thank you for your corrections and comments. Me and Jacob have collected hundrends of them already and this makes me feel like a fool when i remember myself believing that a "close-to-perfect" book is possible to produce. The variation you reffered to (in page 251) was brought to my attention just days before the book going to printer while i was at Porto Carras in assistance to Jacob Aagaard for the European Teams Championship. IM Greet discovered this a3 line while proofreading and this shows how important is the job of the editor. The story is that we had written this chapter before even we imagine the problems Black faces in the similar 9.dxc5 Bxc5 10.a3 line, so in the "without-Nc3" line we didn't even consider the move a3 at all!

The other line after 10.a3 Ne4 you mention has already been corrected by some chesspub members earlier in this thread for the book and this together with many other lines (such as the 10.a3 Ne4 game between Bacrot and Delchev played after the publication of the book) will be covered in an upcoming NIC YB survey (most probably in the 104 issue). Fortunately, the ...Ne4 idea has held well untill now. None believed in it the first time i showed it (and i showed it to many people!) but, like a miracle, the concept convinced everybody at the end or at least none has send me a refutation yet! I'll look closely to the a3-not-Nc3 lines when i find the time.
  
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PANFR
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #613 - 05/11/12 at 12:43:46
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tp2205 wrote on 05/11/12 at 08:27:55:
How about 15...Bd5 16.Nxb6 Bxg2

How about Nxd4 14. Qxd4 Be6 followed by Bf6.


16...Bxg2 loses to 17.Nxa8 Bxf1 18.Qb3!

14...Be6 is simply answered by 15.Bf4 (15...Bf6 16.Be5) and this IQP middlegame is precisely what Black tries to avoid in the Tarrasch.
  
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