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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Leningrad Dutch 8.Re1 (Read 7474 times)
chk
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Re: Leningrad Dutch 8.Re1
Reply #14 - 11/23/09 at 15:42:37
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Then consider playing the main line 8.d5 a5 9.Nd4 & 8.d5 Na6 9. Rb1.

If you want to limit your scope: play 9. Nd4 against both lines (or 9. Rb1 against both lines - still works).

These lines are a bit difficult to face as Black and the positions are very rich. I would choose either that or a sideline, but one that is introduced before Black's important crossroads at move 7 (7. ...Qe8 / ...c6 / ...Nc6 / ...Na6 / even ...e6 are all interesting), e.g. 5. Nh3 (the Carlsbad variation) or a b3-system.

Food for thought (but I admit 8. Re1 is a nice option)
  

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wase4nowd4
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Re: Leningrad Dutch 8.Re1
Reply #13 - 11/23/09 at 13:03:37
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chk wrote on 11/23/09 at 12:12:03:
I have found this link:
http://www.jeremysilman.com/book_reviews_jw/jw_one_book_one_CD_on_Leningrad_Dutc...

where 8. Re1 in Kindermann's book is discussed, so you may get an idea of which stem games were presented.

Personally, I have lately found 8. Qc2 to be slightly more annoying than 8. Re1, but I lack preparation and this may be the very cause of this feeling. Smiley


Thanks for the link ! I am in no position to say which of the two is best. Generally, I leave heavy theoretical comparisons to the .... theorists! I just make mainlinish choices (just 1-2 exceptions), and learn them in good detail before I practice them.

If I'm happy, I keep them for years to get experience in my repertoire. I don't care too much if another mainlinish option has a slightly better theoretical status, both are fine by me. After all, it is not uncommon for the "absolute mainline" title to change over the years between 2-3 popular options.The only thing I am not too fond of, is picking totally offbeat lines.
  
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chk
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Re: Leningrad Dutch 8.Re1
Reply #12 - 11/23/09 at 12:12:03
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I have found this link:
http://www.jeremysilman.com/book_reviews_jw/jw_one_book_one_CD_on_Leningrad_Dutc...

where 8. Re1 in Kindermann's book is discussed, so you may get an idea of which stem games were presented.

Personally, I have lately found 8. Qc2 to be slightly more annoying than 8. Re1, but I lack preparation and this may be the very cause of this feeling. Smiley
  

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wase4nowd4
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Re: Leningrad Dutch 8.Re1
Reply #11 - 11/23/09 at 09:15:57
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Thanks for your replies!

I see, it makes sense, the Kramnik book is quite old. Until now, I did use some of the "Anand" books and Black players seemed to have adapted after awhile (many White players did use the lines suggested by Khalifman).

Is the chesspub section oriented towards the Black side, the White side or is the colorless (which would be the best imho)?
  
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Re: Leningrad Dutch 8.Re1
Reply #10 - 11/23/09 at 09:12:22
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I really have to go now, but have you considered subscribing to ChessPublishing? That is great value for money, it's always up-to-date, and the authors will often look at what is recommended in recent books and note any improvements that have been played. Glenn Flear's Daring Defences section has been consistently high-quality.

Chess Stars is publishing updated editions of the "According to Kramnik" series now, I don't know if they have gotten to the volume with the Dutch yet (Volume 3 originally) but that should be interesting.

With the original the problem is most books for Black written after it have taken Khalifman's recommendations very seriously and worked hard to defuse them.
  

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wase4nowd4
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Re: Leningrad Dutch 8.Re1
Reply #9 - 11/23/09 at 09:04:26
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Stigma wrote on 11/23/09 at 09:01:35:
wase4nowd4 wrote on 11/23/09 at 08:52:55:
This is good news, how much volume does he give to Re1 lines in terms of pages? Also, is there any analysis for non ..Qe8 lines in this book, or he sticks with a ..Qe8 repertoire, skipping the rest? 


10 pages on 8.Re1. The chapter is titled "My special recommendation for White, 8.Re1". But no, nothing on non-Qe8 lines. For those I think the Cox book combined with ChessPublishing is comprehensive enough, though there is also a relevant "Opening for White According to Kramnik" book.


10 pages is way to little to make me buy a book, maybe in the future publishers should consider selling independent chapters in ebook format.

Mentioning the Kramnik book series, what do they recommend vs the Dutch? do the lines there still contain sting or because of its age, the book is not that valuable anymore?
  
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Re: Leningrad Dutch 8.Re1
Reply #8 - 11/23/09 at 09:01:35
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wase4nowd4 wrote on 11/23/09 at 08:52:55:
This is good news, how much volume does he give to Re1 lines in terms of pages? Also, is there any analysis for non ..Qe8 lines in this book, or he sticks with a ..Qe8 repertoire, skipping the rest? 


10 pages on 8.Re1. The chapter is titled "My special recommendation for White, 8.Re1"! But no, nothing on non-Qe8 lines. For those I think the Cox book combined with ChessPublishing is comprehensive enough, though there is also a relevant "Opening for White According to Kramnik" book.
  

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wase4nowd4
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Re: Leningrad Dutch 8.Re1
Reply #7 - 11/23/09 at 08:52:55
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Stigma wrote on 11/23/09 at 08:41:47:
I can see the value-for money argument. It's a rare case that neither I nor any close friends have bought a recent high-quality opening book, but I guess it's not like that for everybody  Smiley

wase4nowd4 wrote on 11/23/09 at 08:33:42:
- Black books want/have-to prove equality for Black, most books consider it their duty to end up with at least '=' in all lines (which I don't think is possible). Sometimes they are partial in their analysis in order to achieve this.

This, however, would be a positive advantage for White. So, your opponents have studied weak lines that someone tries to tell them are OK? That's a big opportunity for you to do some analysis and come out of the opening clearly better!

The Kindermann book is mostly a Black repertoire, but with a useful strategic introduction. In the chapter on 8.Re1 he gives one win for each side as main games and I think the coverage is broad enough to be considered both a White and a Black repertoire. I must admit though that I haven't looked that deeply at the English edition since I only have the German one (a few years older) myself.

I actually play 8.Re1 for White myself and it's a great practical weapon because the positions are different (more open) from the 8.d5 main lines Black players are most used to. I'm not convinced White is theoretically better with it though.


This is good news, how much volume does he give to Re1 lines in terms of pages? Also, is there any analysis for non ..Qe8 lines in this book, or he sticks with a ..Qe8 repertoire, skipping the rest? 

btw indeed, in view of switching to 1.d4, I recently purchased, maybe too many, books and I want to be sure that every penny is well spent.
  
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Re: Leningrad Dutch 8.Re1
Reply #6 - 11/23/09 at 08:46:36
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Indeed, ideally, a deep opening preparation would include improvements over suggested lines by repertoire books.

However I am not playing at GM level, nor can I devote so much time to opening study, especially for the Dutch, which I will not encounter that much. If I had the option, I'd rather go with more unbiased analysis and skip the part where I put a Black repertoire under the microscope.
  
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Re: Leningrad Dutch 8.Re1
Reply #5 - 11/23/09 at 08:41:47
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I can see the value-for money argument. It's a rare case that neither I nor any close friends have bought a recent high-quality opening book, but I guess it's not like that for everybody  Smiley

wase4nowd4 wrote on 11/23/09 at 08:33:42:
- Black books want/have-to prove equality for Black, most books consider it their duty to end up with at least '=' in all lines (which I don't think is possible). Sometimes they are partial in their analysis in order to achieve this.

This, however, would be a positive advantage for White. So, your opponents have studied weak lines that someone tries to tell them are OK? That's a big opportunity for you to do some analysis and come out of the opening clearly better!

The Kindermann book is mostly a Black repertoire, but with a useful strategic introduction. In the chapter on 8.Re1 he gives one win for each side as main games and I think the coverage is broad enough to be considered both a White and a Black repertoire. I must admit though that I haven't looked that deeply at the English edition since I only have the German one (a few years older) myself.

I have actually played 8.Re1 for White a few times and it's a great practical weapon because the positions are different (more open) from the 8.d5 main lines Black players are most used to. I'm not convinced White is theoretically better with it though.
  

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wase4nowd4
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Re: Leningrad Dutch 8.Re1
Reply #4 - 11/23/09 at 08:33:42
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My main "beef" with reading "Black" books for my "White" repertoire is:

- They usually omit analysis of lines which are not part of the repertoire for Black but White should probably know to play these lines.

- Black books want/have-to prove equality for Black, most books consider it their duty to end up with at least '=' in all lines (which I don't think is possible). Sometimes they are partial in their analysis in order to achieve this.

- It is not value for money, in the sense that this book will cover anti-dutch systems, other White lines etc. I get to pay a whole book and use only 5-10% of it.

The Kinderman book sounds interesting, is it a treatise on the Dutch Leningrad or will I be able to read only analysis for lines that fit within a certain Black repertoire?
  
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Re: Leningrad Dutch 8.Re1
Reply #3 - 11/23/09 at 08:25:46
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Why is it so important to have a book that is not biased for Black? I like using books written for the other side from that I intend to play. It always feel good to have the improvements ready on what my opponents will have studied. So I would not hesitate to consult Beim's Understanding the Leningrad Dutch for example, to see what he recommends for Black and be prepared for it.

Anyway, I think there actually is a book that meets your "unbiased" criterion. Kindermann's great repertoire book on the Leningrad (can't remember the exact title of the 2005 English edition) covers 8.Re1 in detail, and he even called it his "secret weapon for White", along with 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3!?

And of course, ChessPublishing is very good on the Leningrad.
  

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wase4nowd4
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Re: Leningrad Dutch 8.Re1
Reply #2 - 11/23/09 at 08:04:50
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Thanks for your reply,

I always try to get a monograph/book on lines I plan to play, I like to read IM/GM opinions on lines before going into deeper study using the informant , NIC & databases. It cuts down the time needed to choose sublines and it also speeds up understanding the opening. Also reading a (good) book is much easier and this is important when studying an opening for the first time.

Of course, if there is absolutely no book unbiased/for White side, I'll have to go with informant/NIC/ECO & annotated games from MegaDB at once.
  
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Re: Leningrad Dutch 8.Re1
Reply #1 - 11/23/09 at 07:56:29
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The Chess Informant is probably your best source, and ECOs aren't bad either. If you want more information that isn't a Black repertoire or similar, then you should search the Yearbook or CBM archives and obviously the annotated games in your reference database.
  

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wase4nowd4
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Leningrad Dutch 8.Re1
11/23/09 at 07:15:33
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Hi all,

Recent switcher to d4 (got bored  Tongue) and I am trying to figure what to play against the Leningrad. Cox in his book suggests the 8.Re1 line, which seems fine.

Is there any material more extensive on the Re1 line that is not biased (doesn't try to sell copies to Leningrad-Dutch Players!), contains analysis+some reasonable introduction? I am new to d4, but not new to chess, my rating is ~2100 and I want to build some sort of repertoire before the 1.d4 switch actually happens OTB and not just online.

The material can be a book, a DVD, a collection of articles, anything that is highly quality and not "utter ...", to quote the late Tony Miles. If it does contain analysis for other Dutch systems (stonewall, classical), even better!

While I have found there are plenty of "White" books on 1.d4, covering mainlines, there is none for the Dutch (unless I am missing something!), how do the rest of 1.d4 players cope with this literature gap?
  
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