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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Grunfeld move order question (Read 5193 times)
BlkSabb
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Re: Grunfeld move order question
Reply #14 - 12/04/09 at 17:55:59
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Markovich wrote on 12/04/09 at 14:11:00:
kylemeister wrote on 12/03/09 at 17:25:24:
Perhaps more significant than someone having stumbled upon it in internet blitz, 6...Bg7 7. Bc4 0-0 8. Ne2 Nc6 is a long-standing book line. 


Yes, and unless I'm mistaken, it's treated at some length in Sakaev's monumental work on 7.Bc4.


There's a whole chapter on it.  About thirty pages.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Grunfeld move order question
Reply #13 - 12/04/09 at 14:11:00
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kylemeister wrote on 12/03/09 at 17:25:24:
Perhaps more significant than someone having stumbled upon it in internet blitz, 6...Bg7 7. Bc4 0-0 8. Ne2 Nc6 is a long-standing book line. 


Yes, and unless I'm mistaken, it's treated at some length in Sakaev's monumental work on 7.Bc4.
  

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MNb
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Re: Grunfeld move order question
Reply #12 - 12/04/09 at 00:24:18
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Markovich wrote on 12/03/09 at 13:14:10:
But say, my edition had a dark purple, cloth cover.  Yours? 


Orange and cloth. Enough proof for me.
  

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Re: Grunfeld move order question
Reply #11 - 12/03/09 at 17:25:24
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Perhaps more significant than someone having stumbled upon it in internet blitz, 6...Bg7 7. Bc4 0-0 8. Ne2 Nc6 is a long-standing book line. 
  
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Markovich
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Re: Grunfeld move order question
Reply #10 - 12/03/09 at 13:14:10
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MNb wrote on 12/03/09 at 01:42:31:
If you mean the version translated and edited by BH Wood your memory deceives you.

That one was from the early 70's though so we might be debating different editions.


Probably we are, because I well recall having this book in my hands around the year 1965, definitely no later than 1968.  Actually it remains in my collection, but it's boxed away and I don't think I'm going to go dig it out just to answer this question.  But say, my edition had a dark purple, cloth cover.  Yours? 

In any case, there was a time when ...c5 was considered necessary.
  

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Re: Grunfeld move order question
Reply #9 - 12/03/09 at 13:01:05
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In a couple of my own internetblitz games, I did not even play c5. Instead (started by accident) played Nc6 and follow it up by playing e5 and later f5. I doubt that this is sound, I have only tried it in a few games but so far I have got good positions. Maybee it worked sicne my opponents had place the knihgt at e2.
  
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Re: Grunfeld move order question
Reply #8 - 12/03/09 at 07:35:33
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Rowson gives a game in his "understanding the grunfeld" (must own for every grunfeld player IMO) where black combines ...c5 with ...cd4 and ...e5!? with ...Bb4+ being an idea. It's a very unusual idea.
  
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MNb
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Re: Grunfeld move order question
Reply #7 - 12/03/09 at 01:42:31
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If you mean the version translated and edited by BH Wood your memory deceives you.
Quote:
6...Bg7 was previously held weak because of 7.Ba3, but Simagin's analyses show the contrary.


That one was from the early 70's though so we might be debating different editions.
  

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Re: Grunfeld move order question
Reply #6 - 12/02/09 at 13:20:05
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kylemeister wrote on 12/02/09 at 05:35:25:
They won't come to the same thing in all cases, but 6...Bg7 and 6...c5 have been considered basically interchangeable for something like the last 60 years (at one time 6...Bg7 was considered inaccurate because of 7. Ba3, then it was found that that wasn't the case -- I seem to recall that a game by Reuben Fine was involved).

Nothing to do with the Neo-Gruenfeld, which involves g3 by White.


Well as I matter of history, I do recall that Ludek Pachman in his Indian Systems, which was published in the 1960's, held that 6...Bg7 was inferior.  So it hasn't been quite 60 years since this was maintained, but it certainly has been a long time.
  

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Re: Grunfeld move order question
Reply #5 - 12/02/09 at 08:28:00
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I believe that after 6...Bg7/6...c5, there is supposed to be some difference in the 7.Bb5 line after each move. I can't remember against which move Bb5+ is more testing against - I'll guess 6...c5 but I'm not sure.

Otherwise, there isn't much difference as avoiding ...c5 has never been a favourable option for Black.
  

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Re: Grunfeld move order question
Reply #4 - 12/02/09 at 07:38:06
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There's also ...Bg7 Qa4+ followed by Qa3 with the same kind of idea as the Ba3 line.
  
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Re: Grunfeld move order question
Reply #3 - 12/02/09 at 05:48:54
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thanks. Any case of where doesn't transpose?
  
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Re: Grunfeld move order question
Reply #2 - 12/02/09 at 05:35:25
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They won't come to the same thing in all cases, but 6...Bg7 and 6...c5 have been considered basically interchangeable for something like the last 60 years (at one time 6...Bg7 was considered inaccurate because of 7. Ba3, then it was found that that wasn't the case -- I seem to recall that a game by Reuben Fine was involved).

Nothing to do with the Neo-Gruenfeld, which involves g3 by White.
  
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Re: Grunfeld move order question
Reply #1 - 12/02/09 at 03:53:12
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I think some people like the 6...c5 move order because it avoids some unthreatening sideline with Ba3 and ...c5 is harder to get in.  It will transpose otherwise.  They do recommend this move order on one of those Grunfeld DVDs.  I've never bothered with it.
  
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Grunfeld move order question
12/02/09 at 02:00:39
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So this may be very silly... so forgive me but i'm starting to study the Grunfeld from both sides and this move order issue confuses me.

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. e4 Nxc3 6. bxc3

Now 6... Bg7 is more common and is the exchange variation that has all those lovely 7. Bc4 7. Be3 7. Nf3 etc
but my question since black almost always plays 7... c5 why does black sometimes play 6... c5 first? Bg7 must be played eventually anyhow? Do this always transpose or is there a case where they CAN NOT transpose? Is there any difference? I mean I see some books refer to NeoGrunfeld as 6... c5 is that what differentiates Neo and regular Grunfeld?
  
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