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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Marshall good for win? (Read 10380 times)
MNb
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Re: Marshall good for win?
Reply #13 - 12/17/09 at 22:43:06
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White hasn't done well with 9.d3 and 9.Nc3, but 9.a4 looks playable.
  

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Re: Marshall good for win?
Reply #12 - 12/17/09 at 11:09:17
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Markovich wrote on 12/14/09 at 16:41:07:
Maybe because I don't play at an exhalted level and so can count on my opponents to err (fortunately, I never do), I wouldn't worry much about the winnability of Black's game once the Marshall is on the board.  But I would worry very much that I would never get to play my beautiful gambit, and about whether Black's game is all that winnable in the anti-Marshalls.


Quick question about one of these anti-Marshalls: After 8.h3 d6, does White have any options of independent value other than 9.c3?  I know that Black doesn't have to return to the more orthodox closed Ruy Lopez, but given I've already done considerable work on some of these, it's not a wholly unsavory alternative.  But is there anything I need to prepare for other than 9.c3?
  

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Re: Marshall good for win?
Reply #11 - 12/14/09 at 19:18:28
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I think the d3-line is really drawish, but the d4-line is too difficult to call it drawish Smiley
  
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Markovich
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Re: Marshall good for win?
Reply #10 - 12/14/09 at 16:41:07
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Maybe because I don't play at an exhalted level and so can count on my opponents to err (fortunately, I never do), I wouldn't worry much about the winnability of Black's game once the Marshall is on the board.  But I would worry very much that I would never get to play my beautiful gambit, and about whether Black's game is all that winnable in the anti-Marshalls.
  

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HgMan
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Re: Marshall good for win?
Reply #9 - 12/14/09 at 14:33:44
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I do like the number of times both Pavlovic and Brunello make some reference to White's "defensive measures."  Not often that it's White doing all the defending.
  

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Re: Marshall good for win?
Reply #8 - 12/05/09 at 15:36:04
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Pavlovic's book isn't a complete Marshall, but I think he gives his reader plenty of material to work with.  I suspect that our silicon friends still have some trouble with the Marshall.  Drawing on thematic Marshall ideas in other parts of the book, 18.a4 seems to avoid the real theater of the battle.  It didn't take me long to find:

18...f5 Rybka gives White a huge advantage after 19.axb5, but 19...f4 20.Qe2 Qh3 probably peters out to a draw.  Maybe Black can do better...

I'll try to look at your other lines, but this looks like a case where careful study of the board trumps machines.
  

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BobbyDigital80
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Re: Marshall good for win?
Reply #7 - 12/05/09 at 13:41:33
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Does anyone here have Pavlovic's book Fighting the Ruy Lopez? On page 29 he gives this line: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 O-O 8.c3 d5 9. exd5 Nxd5 10. Nxe5 Nxe5 11.Rxe5 c6 12. d4 Bd6 13. Re1 Qh4 14. g3
Qh3 15. Re4 g5 16. Qf1 Qh6 17. Re1 Kh8 and now he gives 18.Nd2, 18.h4, and 18.Bxd4. But Rybka thinks that 18.a4 and 18.c4 give White a clear advantage. I wonder why Pavlovic didn't mention these moves.
Also in the 18.h4 line, he gives 18...Nf4 19. hxg5 Nh3+ 20.Kg2 Qg6 21. f4, but Rybka likes 21.Qe2 and says it's +1.30. It's hard to know who to trust!  Shocked
  
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Re: Marshall good for win?
Reply #6 - 12/05/09 at 06:34:01
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I would say that as a choice for Black, the Marshall is excellent for playing for a win below 2500 level if you know the drawish lines and the lines that offer winning prospects, but at GM level and above, you have to accept that you will draw some games due to the drawish nature of some variations. Many opponents will also avoid the Marshall with Anti-Marshall lines, which is another argument in favour of playing the Marshall as the most White can achieve is a negligible edge.
  

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Re: Marshall good for win?
Reply #5 - 12/04/09 at 21:42:36
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Thanks, Markovich, for making this split.  The question that makes up this hybrid thread is worth discussing.

I'm interested, in general, about the notion that it's White who can force the draw and may need to.  Black obviously wants to play ...d5 at the earliest moment in the Closed Ruy Lopez, so it's interesting that s/he can get away with it so early and so effectively.

I can appreciate that a strong Black player may not want to invite forced draws against weaker players with the white pieces, but I've not seen anything so far in Pavlovic or elsewhere that suggests that a draw is a foregone conclusion in any Marshall lines.
  

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Re: Marshall good for win?
Reply #4 - 12/04/09 at 20:03:49
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This Topic was moved here from 1. e4 e5 [move by] Markovich.
  

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JonathanB
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Re: Marshall good for win?
Reply #3 - 12/04/09 at 19:35:57
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BobbyDigital80 wrote on 12/04/09 at 13:14:05:
Yeah but it seems like Black has ways to play for a win. Aronian beats people with it. He finds new ideas. I wouldn't trust some old Nunn analysis because there are always new ideas to look for.


I'm not sure I understand the point you're making here.  Black obviously has ways to play for a win in many lines.  Equally there are lines in the Marshall that burn out very quickly.  It's the very nature of forcing openings after all.  It wasn't analysis Nunn was presenting but an observation - which seems to match specific analysis mentioned in your new book.

I doubt very much Aronian would beat anyone remotely near his rating if they played the line Anand used against Leko.  I'm sure he doesn't mind that either (and nor, I've no doubt, does Leko).  At the top level, of course, an easy draw with Black is quiet a success.

If you really believe there are nevertheless ways to play for a win as Black regardless of what White plays I suppose you've also got to explain your spanky new book giving lots of forced draws.  Just maybe they are there after all?


I agree with you, by the way, that this is an issue well worth covering in any book published on the Marshall.
  

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Re: Marshall good for win?
Reply #2 - 12/04/09 at 13:14:05
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JonathanB wrote on 12/04/09 at 12:48:20:
BobbyDigital80 wrote on 12/04/09 at 06:37:18:
I bought this book and noticed that there are some lines that end in forced draws. Does the author feel that White can force a draw in the Marshall if he wants to?


I don't know about Pavlovic but many years ago John Nunn - the acknowledged authority on the Marshall in the late 80s/early 90s - wrote that the opening was not suitable for use against lower rated players because of the number of forced drawing lines available to White.

Anand-Leko last round of Mexico City springs to mind.


Yeah but it seems like Black has ways to play for a win. Aronian beats people with it. He finds new ideas. I wouldn't trust some old Nunn analysis because there are always new ideas to look for.
  
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Re: Marshall good for win?
Reply #1 - 12/04/09 at 12:48:20
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BobbyDigital80 wrote on 12/04/09 at 06:37:18:
I bought this book and noticed that there are some lines that end in forced draws. Does the author feel that White can force a draw in the Marshall if he wants to?


I don't know about Pavlovic but many years ago John Nunn - the acknowledged authority on the Marshall in the late 80s/early 90s - wrote that the opening was not suitable for use against lower rated players because of the number of forced drawing lines available to White.

Anand-Leko last round of Mexico City springs to mind.
  

www.streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.com  "I don't call you f**k face" - GM Nigel Short.
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BobbyDigital80
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Marshall good for win?
12/04/09 at 06:37:18
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I bought this book and noticed that there are some lines that end in forced draws. Does the author feel that White can force a draw in the Marshall if he wants to? I don't see Pavlovic giving any alternatives to the "forced" drawing lines he gives. I wish he talked about that topic in the book.
  
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