(Forgot the irony marker, of course. But then the From being in better shape is good news for the Bird player, too, if he plays the Pelikan variation in the symmetrical. And as TN says : there's always the Hayward variationof the declined From. No advantage, just chess, so totally conform with Bird strategy...)

I don't understand 3 e6 at all!

I must say that the article on the From in Kaissiber 36 is excellent - it contains a simple but major improvement on my analysis in 'Dangerous Weapons: Flank Openings', and 3 exd6 Bxd6 4 Nf3 Nf6 now surely looks healthier for Black than it has for a very long time. There might be a lot more to be discovered in the line 5 Nc3(!) Nc6(!) 6 d4. 

Is there anything new on 4...g5 5 d4 in the 2nd edition of Sid Pickard's Birdbase? He collects a lot of games from off the beaten track.

So the 'dubiosity' of 3. e6 should be attributed to 3...Be6. But that's decent according to NICBase (on a very small sample though) :
4 white win(s) 
3 black win(s) 
1 draw(s) 
White score: 56.2% 
I don't see any compelling reason why Black would be better here or even equal.
Does anyone ?

Haven't seen any game with ...fe6:, yet.
Have you ? (I only use online databases, so...)

Actually, I figured the benefit of taking the second pawn on d6 was not just the extra pawn, but also clearing out Black's central pawns.  Must agree with Markovich: 3.e6 looks dubious.

nyoke wrote on 12/23/09 at 15:31:29:

Do you have current experience in those lines?  I read the review that Davies is going to be doing on the Bird and saw that line, and even read that many strong players have essayed the lines...it might be neat, although Black also has the option of fxe with a compact pawn center...I wonder if both Bxe and fxe are fully playable - at first glance, they both look fine to me.  Of course, White can work to achieve the e4 advance pretty easily this way.

After 3. e6 Bxe6, I guess Black will either shore up with c6-d5, or simply go straight for d5 and c5?   
4. Nf3 Nc6 with the idea of Qd7 or Qe7 and 0-0-0 is one idea for Black...but in the case of fxe, then Black could play to contest White's f-file with ...Nf6, ...Be7 and ...0-0.

I guess we ought to try to go back to the original idea and see if anyone has any ideas, since that is what we are discussing?

1. f4 e5 2. fxe5 d6 3. exd6 Bxd6 4. Nf3 Nf6...

How about, instead of saying, "White should stick with 1. e4, or 1. d4, etc." - why not actually analyze this position and come up with some ideas?  You might not like this position from the White side...but what about the Black side?  Sometimes you will face 1. f4, and maybe you want to learn the Black side of the From's?

Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic.

Markovich wrote on 12/18/09 at 15:40:30:


Not at all!    At the time, it was $15 a week, one hour...I learned some cool things.  But he was patient enough with me as my curiosity stumbled around on the chessboard.  He did want to teach me some mainlines, but I have a hard problem sticking to one thing sometimes at the chessboard...chalk it up to an adventurous spirit!    But one week, for my $15, he did some personalized research on the From's Gambit (Bxd6 Nf3 lines), and he said it was good for him as well, since he was able to understand some of the lines.

Nowadays, he is more like $30 a class, I think...but I believe he will still negotiate prices.  As far as what he would have advocated teaching, his pet lines were the English (it is what I noticed him play quite a bit) - I watched him dash out a Reti 1. Nf3 d5 2. c4 d4 3. b4!? one time and asked him if he felt it was better than 3. e3 - He said, "Perhaps"...and one time in a simul, playing 1. f4, I lasted 61 moves against him.  I played the Antoshin setup with f4/Nf3/d3/c3/Qc2 preparing e4...  Here is what I can remember that he played (this has been probably three years)...

1. f4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d3 (I want to say ...g6 here) 4. c3 (He said,"White assumes a flexible pawn structure") Bg7 5. Qc2 (He said "An immediate e4 is better) Nc6 6. e4 e5...I cannot remember any more after that.  I DO remember that this setup caught me off guard - it was the first time I had ever seen anyone counterpunch my Bird with ...e5 in a Sicilian!

As far as the Black side, he knew some French, a lot of Sicilian, and QID/NID I think were his two main 1.d4 defenses he was going to teach me...but I was stubborn and said, "No, I want to learn the Bird and the Dutch!)...lol - I must have been a hard student to deal with.  He did show me the ...c6 Leningrad however, which he has played in the past, and showed me what Cheybalinsk (I think that is his name?) taught him back in the late 70's (?)...

Anyway, I know that was a lot of info...but to make a long story short, he called 1. f4 "a defensive system (or setup, can't remember the exact word)"...why play a defensive setup?  lol  But I like it!   

Well, part of my issue with playing the mainline From's is the dynamic possibilities that you give Black...it is not as much to my taste, honestly.  I prefer a more stable environment...it is more to my taste.  Not to everyone's taste...some do prefer the complex possibilities, that is for sure.  But when I see White having builded a "strong" pawn center and Black begin to counterpunch the center with tactics, well...I begin to question if this is the line I prefer.  Believe me, I also have a book on the King's Gambit - because I also want to understand possibilities after 2. e4...regardless of anyone's opinion.  But let's take the position of both mainlines (I know this thread was concerning 4...Nf6) - 

1. f4 e5 2. fxe d6 3. exd Bxd 4. Nf3 g5 5. g3 g4 6. Nh4 Ne7 7. d4 Ng6 8. NxN hxN 9. Qd3 Nc6 10. c3 Bf5 11. e4 Qe7 12. Bg2 (I think, this is from memory)  0-0-0 13. Be3...according to Taylor. 

This position, I asked my old teacher, Gavrikov, about...and he preferred Bf4 instead...so it is a matter of taste, I believe.  Of course, Taylor has studied 1. f4 much more than Gavrikov, so he understands the positions better...he regularly mentioned GM's not understanding the positions.   
But after 13. Be3, sure, the pin is broken, but is the position something you like?  I have dealt with it for a while, and from time to time, I like to explore new ideas, and so when I come back to my old ideas, I have new ones to go with.  I can't stand being stale (i.e. playing the same variation over and over - BORING!).
As for 4...Nf6, well...let's see.   

1. f4 e5 2. fxe d6 3. exd Bxd 4. Nf3 Nf6...well, we could even try Taylor's idea, 5. e4!?.  Not bad really...but is it going to be what you prefer?  White basically gets a good position, and still has one central pawn, with strong development chances after 5...Nxe 6. Bd3 with 0-0 in the mix...

I think it is important for From's players to study KG lines as well, because I notice similarities in pawn structures in certain lines (i.e. c3-d4 with a slow, strong pawn buildup).

And one thing about the Bird in general?  If you play 3. e3 or 3. g3 or 3. d3, 3. c3, 3. b3...the possibilities for White are quite interesting...But understanding the basic themes allows White to transpose into different openings.

SSSShhhsss ! (Please don't spoil my point machine !
Let them play the From, it's so much fun !
And if you  r e a l l y  need to quote Vigus' analysis, then add his line on the From being around for quite a long time and surprises not being excluded, will you ?!)

BirdBrain wrote on 12/09/09 at 18:06:35:



HUH?  Take the pawns! 

The From's Gambit is suspect from Black's standpoint.

Keep an eye out for one or two move tricks/threats...which usually include Blacks King's Bishop, and be patient. Look to swap that bishop and Queens off.   When black's initiative dwindles, White is usually left with a great endgame. 

 

This was discussed earlier this year, click on "linksspringer wrote" to view the topic:
linksspringer wrote on 06/26/09 at 10:10:50:

I have tried the following recommendation for quite a while, according to Taylor's book on Bird's Opening - 

1. f4 e5 2. fxe d6 3. exd Bxd 4. Nf3 Nf6 5. d4...

This move is fine, and if White knows what he is doing, I think he can fair well...but I think I have heard people also recommend 5. Nc3...does anyone on here have any experience with that line?