Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 4 pawns attack (Read 29388 times)
macaking
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 2
Joined: 08/27/10
Re: 4 pawns attack
Reply #24 - 08/27/10 at 00:59:50
Post Tools
motörhead wrote on 08/21/10 at 19:46:22:
moahunter wrote on 12/31/09 at 23:29:56:
Markovich wrote on 12/28/09 at 19:37:50:
  The KID literature tends toward advocacy, and many of these authors look down their noses at the 4PA.  But I very much doubt that it's unsound.  Really I can't think of a better weapon for smashing KIDs at the club level.

I agree with this - I got the Kill Kid book, and I think it is all most OTB players will need. You can quickly learn lines well beyond what most KID players will have learned (as they have to master all the theory of the other KID lines). The book is very well organized, so you can quickly look at sections to get a reminder of the key lines before a tournament.

Are there lines that aren't perfect? Perhaps - but how many black players will be able to go 12 moves deep to find a challenging move like Watson suggests? Or hide a pocket pc at the board to analyze even deeper? Which is the point of the 4 pawns I think, it takes black into very unfamiliar territory they only play once in a while, whereas white can practice in advance against computers or similar. I think Watsons review is actually pretty positive, this is a terrific book for a club player.


Those lines with the pawn pushes and sacs after 6...c5 are well known and dangerous at least since the 1960ies when Gunderam invented his gambit e4-e5 (after 7.d5 e6 8.Be2 exd5 9.e5) which is now in the off due to 9...Ne4.
But what has White against Palliser's rediscovery 6...e5 ("The 4PA doesn't prevent 6...e5" in Dangerous Weapons - The King's Indian)?


page 39 c) 11.c5! imho there you have to look.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
motörhead
Full Member
***
Offline


Here comes the bass, thunder
in the guts...

Posts: 226
Joined: 10/09/08
Re: 4 pawns attack
Reply #23 - 08/21/10 at 19:46:22
Post Tools
moahunter wrote on 12/31/09 at 23:29:56:
Markovich wrote on 12/28/09 at 19:37:50:
  The KID literature tends toward advocacy, and many of these authors look down their noses at the 4PA.  But I very much doubt that it's unsound.  Really I can't think of a better weapon for smashing KIDs at the club level.

I agree with this - I got the Kill Kid book, and I think it is all most OTB players will need. You can quickly learn lines well beyond what most KID players will have learned (as they have to master all the theory of the other KID lines). The book is very well organized, so you can quickly look at sections to get a reminder of the key lines before a tournament.

Are there lines that aren't perfect? Perhaps - but how many black players will be able to go 12 moves deep to find a challenging move like Watson suggests? Or hide a pocket pc at the board to analyze even deeper? Which is the point of the 4 pawns I think, it takes black into very unfamiliar territory they only play once in a while, whereas white can practice in advance against computers or similar. I think Watsons review is actually pretty positive, this is a terrific book for a club player.


Those lines with the pawn pushes and sacs after 6...c5 are well known and dangerous at least since the 1960ies when Gunderam invented his gambit e4-e5 (after 7.d5 e6 8.Be2 exd5 9.e5) which is now in the off due to 9...Ne4.
But what has White against Palliser's rediscovery 6...e5 ("The 4PA doesn't prevent 6...e5" in Dangerous Weapons - The King's Indian)?
  

A walk trough the ocean of most souls would scarcely get your feet wet.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Semkov
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 72
Location: Sofia
Joined: 12/27/04
Gender: Male
Re: 4 pawns attack
Reply #22 - 08/17/10 at 20:17:19
Post Tools
Bonsai, Watson sent me his game after the book was published. I think that 14.Kh1 allows White to avoid the draw line 14.Bg5 Bd4! and maintain pressure. The position is very complex, with multiple branchings on every move, but White possesses the initiative. I'll put this at our site, but I'm on holiday now. If Radjabov avoided ...Re8, it is a sure sign he did not think it was so good for Black.
I analysed the line 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f4 0-0 6.Nf3 c5 7.d5 e6 8.Be2 exd5 9.cxd5 Nbd7 11.Qc2 (I recommend this move in my book) 11...Qe7 12.Re1! Nb6 13. Qd1! (comp's suggestion) and could not understand what Black's plan was except for waiting while White is preparing e5.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Bonsai
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 622
Joined: 03/13/04
Gender: Male
Re: 4 pawns attack
Reply #21 - 08/17/10 at 07:49:53
Post Tools
Semkov wrote on 08/16/10 at 15:08:50:
By the way, when I find some time, soon, I hope, I will post at our site for free an updated chapter with 12.e6. I have not seen so far anything dubious about this move.

Have you had a chance to look at Watson's game against Minasian where as white he faced 12.e6 fxe6 13.d6 Rf8 (given under the link above http://www.chess.co.uk/twic/jwat94.html)?

And as previously mentioned there is the move order even recently used by Radjabov: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f4 0-0 6.Nf3 c5 7.d5 e6 8.Be2 exd5 9.cxd5 Nbd7. After avoiding the direct e5 lines with 10.0-0 Re8, then e.g. Watson has then suggested 11.Qc2 (Jobava played 11.Nd2 versus Radjabov) 11...Qe7 for black (or 11...a6 12.a4 Qe7) 12.Re1! (Watson's annotation - 12.Nd2 Nb6 13.a4 Nfxd5; 12.Nb5 Nxd5!) 12...Nb6 13.a4 Bg4 getting the bishop out to g4 (if necessary it can now exchange itself and then the knight could go back to d7 if forced with black having resolved the issue that some of his pieces are stepping over each other and all want to occupy d7). If white prevents 13...Bg4 with 13.h3, then wants seems to think that 13...Bd7 is fine.

Radjabov played this line this year and Banikas deviated from Watson's analysis with 13.Bd2. Perhaps 20.axb6 improves white's play so that he is equal, but black has various other ideas before (perhaps e.g. just 18...a5 or 18...Bd4 so that the white queen cannot go back to f2 in some lines?).
[Event "7th World Team Championship"]
[Site "Bursa TUR"]
[Date "2010.01.12"]
[Round "8"]
[White "Banikas, H."]
[Black "Radjabov, T."]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A68"]
[WhiteElo "2608"]
[BlackElo "2733"]
[Source "Mark Crowther"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. f4 c5 6. d5 e6 7. Nf3 exd5 8. cxd5 O-O 9. Be2 Nbd7 10. O-O Re8 11. Qc2 Qe7 12. Re1 Nb6 13. Bd2 Bd7 14. Bf1 Bg4 15.Qd1 Nfd7 16. h3 Bxf3 17. Qxf3 c4 18. a4 Nc5 19. a5 Nb3 20. Rad1 Nxa5 21. Nb5 Qd7 22. Na3 Nb3 23. Nxc4 Nxd2 24. Rxd2 Nxc4 25. Bxc4 b5 26. Bd3 a5 27. Rde2 Rad8 28. Qf2 a4 29. Rc1 b4 30. Kh2 a3 31. bxa3 bxa3 32. Rc6 Bb2 33. Bc4 Qe7 34.g3 Kh8 35. h4 f6 36. Ra6 Ra8 37. Rc6 Rab8 38. Ra6 Ra8 39. Rc6 Rab8 40. Ra6 Rec8 41. Ba2 Qd7 42. Ra7 Qg4 43. Ra4 Rc3 44. Bc4 Rf3 45. Qg2 Bc1 0-1
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Semkov
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 72
Location: Sofia
Joined: 12/27/04
Gender: Male
Re: 4 pawns attack
Reply #20 - 08/16/10 at 15:08:50
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 01/01/10 at 05:42:47:
Yeah, but I don't really trust Semko's 12.e6 suggestion.  I prefer 12.Bg5 or 12.O-O.

Markovich, there is one big difference between the two lines. Without 12.e6 White is, alas, struggling for a draw. While after 12.e6 it is Black who is struggling for the draw. By the way, when I find some time, soon, I hope, I will post at our site for free an updated chapter with 12.e6. I have not seen so far anything dubious about this move. White is quite comfortable, with full compensation for the pawn. The only question is whether Black is surviving in tons of long variations, or not.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: 4 pawns attack
Reply #19 - 01/01/10 at 05:42:47
Post Tools
Yeah, but I don't really trust Semko's 12.e6 suggestion.  I prefer 12.Bg5 or 12.O-O.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
moahunter
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 59
Joined: 05/10/09
Re: 4 pawns attack
Reply #18 - 12/31/09 at 23:29:56
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 12/28/09 at 19:37:50:
  The KID literature tends toward advocacy, and many of these authors look down their noses at the 4PA.  But I very much doubt that it's unsound.  Really I can't think of a better weapon for smashing KIDs at the club level.

I agree with this - I got the Kill Kid book, and I think it is all most OTB players will need. You can quickly learn lines well beyond what most KID players will have learned (as they have to master all the theory of the other KID lines). The book is very well organized, so you can quickly look at sections to get a reminder of the key lines before a tournament.

Are there lines that aren't perfect? Perhaps - but how many black players will be able to go 12 moves deep to find a challenging move like Watson suggests? Or hide a pocket pc at the board to analyze even deeper? Which is the point of the 4 pawns I think, it takes black into very unfamiliar territory they only play once in a while, whereas white can practice in advance against computers or similar. I think Watsons review is actually pretty positive, this is a terrific book for a club player.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10604
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: 4 pawns attack
Reply #17 - 12/29/09 at 02:51:48
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 12/28/09 at 19:37:50:
Where is this review?

http://www.chess.co.uk/twic/jwat94.html
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: 4 pawns attack
Reply #16 - 12/28/09 at 19:37:50
Post Tools
Fllg wrote on 12/28/09 at 18:39:30:
TN wrote on 12/23/09 at 21:48:09:
Slightly off-topic, but have the lines recommend in Gallagher's 'Play the King's Indian' been refuted by the works of other authors, or are the lines still strong but need updating with the latest books and relevant games?


I don´t have "Kill the KID" but Watson´s review indicates that Black is in trouble after Semkov´s suggestion 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f4 c5 6.d5 0-0 7.Nf3 e6 8.Be2 exd5 9.cxd5 Bg4 10.0-0 Nbd7 11.h3 Bxf3 12.Bxf3 Re8 13.g4 h6 and now 14.Qc2! instead of the common 14.h4. The idea is apparently to build up slowly with Be3 and Rae1 before continuing to push pawns.


Really?  Where is this review?  I don't doubt it though, since 14.Qc2 looks strong.

@battleangle:  So far as I know, Semko is one of the few who maintains that the 4PA is a significant theoretical challenge to the KID.  Many if not most will concede that it's a significant practical challenge.  The KID literature tends toward advocacy, and many of these authors look down their noses at the 4PA.  But I very much doubt that it's unsound.  Really I can't think of a better weapon for smashing KIDs at the club level.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
battleangel
Ex Member
*



Re: 4 pawns attack
Reply #15 - 12/28/09 at 18:45:04
Post Tools
If the 4 pawns attack is good,
why isn't it played at top level?

I don't think it's good to have such a big center, it's too big, in a way you also lose tempo moving 4 pawns instead of pieces so early in the opening, also you restrict white possibilitys of building up a position, because the pawns can't move back.

e4 e5 bc4 is not as good as e4 e5 Nf3,
because it is better for white to decide later on if it moves to c4, b5 or e2.

Same in the 4 pawns attack, white should make use of the center, but not too much,
white can later decide when to do certain pawn moves (pawns that can't move back).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Fllg
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 645
Joined: 05/30/09
Gender: Male
Re: 4 pawns attack
Reply #14 - 12/28/09 at 18:39:30
Post Tools
TN wrote on 12/23/09 at 21:48:09:
Slightly off-topic, but have the lines recommend in Gallagher's 'Play the King's Indian' been refuted by the works of other authors, or are the lines still strong but need updating with the latest books and relevant games?


I don´t have "Kill the KID" but Watson´s review indicates that Black is in trouble after Semkov´s suggestion 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f4 c5 6.d5 0-0 7.Nf3 e6 8.Be2 exd5 9.cxd5 Bg4 10.0-0 Nbd7 11.h3 Bxf3 12.Bxf3 Re8 13.g4 h6 and now 14.Qc2! instead of the common 14.h4. The idea is apparently to build up slowly with Be3 and Rae1 before continuing to push pawns.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MemoryMaster
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 51
Joined: 12/09/09
Re: 4 pawns attack
Reply #13 - 12/28/09 at 14:59:33
Post Tools
I second TN's post and will ask another off-topic question.

I recently took up the Kings Indian and I looked at one game Nogueiras-Kasparov 1989 which goes:

5.f4 0-0 6.Nf3 c5 7.d5 e6 8.Be2 exd 9.cxd Bg4 10.0-0 Nbd7 11.h3 Bxf3 12.Bxf3 Re8 13.Re1 Rc8 14.Be3 b4.

I am curious if this variation still holds up for white. Is 13.Rc8 still the mainline and is 14.Be3 the move? In the few online games I have played white follows this variation and then goes 15.a3 whereupon all I know is both players are trying to create a passed pawn.

In Kasimdzhanov's chessbase DVD he says that he hasn't studied much theory at all and he argues that it is in fact not necessary to do so. At the moment all I am doing is looking at games. In your opinion is this a sufficient?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TN
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 3420
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: 4 pawns attack
Reply #12 - 12/23/09 at 21:48:09
Post Tools
Slightly off-topic, but have the lines recommend in Gallagher's 'Play the King's Indian' been refuted by the works of other authors, or are the lines still strong but need updating with the latest books and relevant games?
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: 4 pawns attack
Reply #11 - 12/23/09 at 15:51:11
Post Tools
Ah, Vierbauernangriff.

It's a yeomanlike outline of variations.  I suppose I like it a little better than Konikowski's work.  You need chess German, of course.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bibs
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 2254
Joined: 10/24/06
Re: 4 pawns attack
Reply #10 - 12/23/09 at 14:05:15
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 12/23/09 at 13:14:34:
I don't really know about Schneider's book(s), but I own a fairly recent work in German entitled, I believe, Koenigsindisch: Vierbauerangriff that is well worth having.  Maybe it's idle to say this, however, since my internet search didn't reveal an available copy.

This?
http://www.beyerverlag.de/pages/print00448.htm
Btw, how does it rank compared with the others?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo