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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Merits of 1.f4. (Read 39025 times)
MNb
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Re: Merits of 1.f4.
Reply #42 - 01/01/10 at 15:29:14
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The last serious game with Williams playing 1.f4 I know is from Monarch Assurance 2003 against Luther. Williams lost.

1.f4 is better than 1.e4 etc.? I did not write you advocated that. Is it unsound? I did not write it was - in fact nobody did, not even Markovich. You are fighting strawmen. Partly that was what I meant with keeping things in perspective.

GM Mednis recognizes three principles of correct opening play:

1) Prepare castling.
2) Activate pieces.
3) Control the centre by
a) pawn occupation
b) (indirect) influence by pawns or pieces.

1.e4, 1.d4, 1.Nf3 and 1.c4 fullfill at least two of these principles and 1.f4 only one (3a). That's why 1.e4, 1.d4, 1.Nf3 and 1.c4 are better moves. It does not follow that 1.f4 is unsound. Because of the right to move first White can even permit something like 1.a3 without being worse and 1.f4 is certainly better than that one.
This is elementary chess logic which every amateur from 1500 on should know. That is the other part of what I meant with keeping things in perspective.
  

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Paul123
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Re: Merits of 1.f4.
Reply #41 - 01/01/10 at 00:59:52
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Mnb wrote: Very convenient to forget that
1) S.Williams hasn't played the Bird in games with long time control since he became a GM.
2) S.Williams has lost almost half of his games with it.

The last real game  S. Williams played the Bird (as far as I know) was in the British championship of 2002 he was rated 2421 playing an opponent more than a hundred points higher than himself. P Harikrisma rated 2568. The result? a draw!  A good outing in my book!

1.f4 is better than 1.d4 or 1.e4?  I wasn't advocating that it was.

But....Is it unsound? I don't think so... but from my perspective few openings are.....

For myself.....What 1.e4 and 1.d4 have over 1.f4 is options, pure and simple.  If I know what my opponent is going to play I can prepare for it.    1e4 and 1.d4 are much more broader so they are harder to prepare for. Yet, if  I know my opponent is going to play a certain opening  (e.g.  the exchange var of the Spanish )  And I play the Spanish.... as black I don't find preparing for that 1.e4 opening any more or less difficult than the preparing for the 1.f4

Its a safe bet one could add 1.f4 to their repertoire and pull it out and score with it on occasion.  And I might add... the weekend club player can specialize in it and do fine. 

My attraction to these opening stems from the belief   that a "legit novelty"  (by legit I mean a move that presents the opponent serious challenges) in a equal position  amounts to an advantage. Especially over the board! (wither its a real advantage or not ) I believe Kasparov pulling out old openings and dusting them off is a great example of this.  I also play the Reti and over the years have developed some home grown "legit novelties."  I work hard to find them in lines where Black is supposed to be ok. OVB  The Reti for me has been interesting and fun. (IMO that's what chess is supposed to be)  Again to reiterate "its the trying to find these novelties"   that I like best.  With the Bird  I'm sure I can have the same fun as I do with the Reti   Heck... I play the Nimzo-Larsen...so why not?

Its all in how you look at it  what's fun...



   








  
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moahunter
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Re: Merits of 1.f4.
Reply #40 - 12/31/09 at 23:47:41
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Paul123 wrote on 12/28/09 at 22:05:31:
What you have described is playing symmetrical and can be done in any 1e4 or 1.d4  or 1.c4 opening...... Examples....  The Petroff , Queens Gambits  "The Symmetrical English. etc etc.... 

IMO...Hardly avoiding theory....

Not really symmetrical at all, the London is one of the triangle systems, but you stick the bishop out first. In reverse against the bird, I play (order isn't too important with this type of approach):

1. f4 ,d5, 2. ... , bf5 3. ..., Nf6, 4 ..., e6, 5 ..., c6, 6 ... , h6 (gives bishop somewhere to hide - may play it earlier), 7..., bd6, etc.

I have a memory of the basic plans of the London from when I used to play it as white (e.g. when to move the knight to e4 if I can), so for me its a good option. I take my time before deciding on castling, if I see a kingside attack coming, I may not go that way. For somebody who used to play the Colle or similar, they could use a reverse of that. I think Markovich's c5, g6 approach is good as well. 

Which is sort of the point to me. Black doesn't need to prepare that much to play against f4, provided they know a simple, easy, and probably not that ambitious, way to develop. If you want to refute f4, fine - probably need to learn some theory then. But, you can get a very good game, without needing to do that. I wish it was so easy against other white openings (i.e. c4, d4, e4 or Nf3).
  
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MNb
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Re: Merits of 1.f4.
Reply #39 - 12/31/09 at 21:12:12
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Paul123 wrote on 12/31/09 at 01:21:41:
S Williams  plays both the Classical Dutch and the Bird!... last time I checked he's   now a GM with a rating 2550) 


Very convenient to forget that
1) S.Williams hasn't played the Bird in games with long time control since he became a GM.
2) S.Williams has lost almost half of his games with it.

Look, I won't disencourage anyone who likes to play 1.f4. But we should try to keep things in perspective. There is nothing subjective on the notion that 1.f4 is not as good as at least four other first moves.
The move order 1.f4 d5 2.b3 (flexibility gone) is already mentioned in a booklet by LM Pickett called A modern approach to the Bird from 1974. Ultrasolid  then is 2...Nf6 3.Bb2 c6 4.Nf3 Bg4 eg 5.e3 e6 6.Be2 Bd6 as already pointed out by the same Pickett.

I also think that the extra tempo makes a difference when playing the IZ as White. He/she will find it easier to equalize. OK, that is a bit of an exaggeration. Again I stress that playing something solid as Black is hard to meet for the ambitious player: 1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 g6 3.e3 Bg7 4.Be3 Nf6 5.0-0 0-0 6.d3 b6 is such a line; 6...c6 another. Indeed, White should not have any problem proving equality. And, as Markovich always says, it is still a game.

Imo the most ambitious try for White is the Leningrad Bird/Polar Bear. When a good friend of mine (over 2100) suffered from problems with his usual 1.e4 I recommended him to give it a try. Without serious preparation he scored 4½/6. He just relied on his experience as a seasoned KID-player (as Black). In the meantime he could repair his 1.e4 repertoire so he gave it up. You see, there is one problem when specializing on something like the Bird: your opponents will try to outprepare you. My friend obviously did not want to run that risk after 6 games.
  

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Re: Merits of 1.f4.
Reply #38 - 12/31/09 at 14:38:58
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Thank you very much Stefan!
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Merits of 1.f4.
Reply #37 - 12/31/09 at 13:47:58
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www.bookfinder.com / search for Author: is R.E. Robinson / Title: 1. P-KB4 (A Guide To Bird's Opening)

http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?ac=sl&st=sl&qi=i0QV6dgnGvZdFtFs9WF1AiS0MH0_883...

  
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Re: Merits of 1.f4.
Reply #36 - 12/31/09 at 13:29:15
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 12/30/09 at 22:08:31:
Unfortunately Henry Bird's own writings were not inspiring. Maybe Robinson's book on Bird's Opening would be to your taste. Descriptive notation, an old book from the 1950ies. But a labour of love. It starts with a photo of Henry Bird. Of course there are good recent works on 1.f4, but I like the "fighting spirit" of Bird's games in Robinson's attractive little work.


I found the book online, but I couldn't find a place to purchase it.  Do you have a link to where I can get a copy of it?  I may have to contact some book dealers and see if they can find it...
  
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Re: Merits of 1.f4.
Reply #35 - 12/31/09 at 13:28:19
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As far as the "lock down", well, that fits my style...so that is one reason why I like the Dutch...it really, from the word go, sets the mood of the game.  I have a good friend who against 1. d4 d5 always plays an early c5 - and he loves it.  Against the Dutch, I am not in the slightest worried about that - my extra tempoes on the kingside matter enough that he normally has to shift gears from the queenside to pay attention to his king.
  
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Re: Merits of 1.f4.
Reply #34 - 12/31/09 at 13:08:44
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Stefan, I researched you and found you are a 1. f4 player!  I was suprised...on www.chessbase.com, that is the main opening they have listed for you with the White pieces.  I took a look at your first game.  It reminded me a lot of the way I like to play - against Suetin(?) in 1990.  You led an early kingside pawnstorm that cramped him from "escaping", and then you cracked his queenside pawn structure with a well-timed c3! - I really liked the aggressive way you handled the positions.  And the early 2. b3 against 1...d5.  I have tried it from time to time, and I take it you must be a player of the double fianchetto as well, seeing you withheld pushing the e- or g-pawn for a few moves?  I like the flexibility of those positions. 
I will definitely look up that book.  I used to own two books on 1. f4, Taylor's and Soltis', but I liked Soltis better since it explained the key ideas of what 1. f4 is about.  I also owned 1. f4 / 2. b3 by Soltis (can't remember the name).  Thanks for your encouraging comments.
  
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Paul123
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Re: Merits of 1.f4.
Reply #33 - 12/31/09 at 01:21:41
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Mnb wote
Because you are not the only one who believes in transpositions and because just a solid continuation is not enough in corr chess.

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1209432759

Btw I have played the Iljin-Zjenevsky as Black for almost 15 years now. So I think I have some right to say that this setup with reversed colours (ie e3, Be2) is not potent enough to play for an advantage.
For more information see Keith Hayward's site (stored in the archieves), someone who has not only much more experience than me (and Taylor) but is also a far better chess player. Note that Hayward beat Taylor with 1.f4 in 1990.

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.geocities.com/drawyah/
http://www.chessville.com/UCO/TRNT/TheRoadNotTaken.htm
http://www.chessville.com/UCO/FromNeoFromtoKingsGambit.htm


I too play the Classical  and the Dutch Stonewall.    I

As White (in reference to the 1.f4 2.Nf3 and 3. e3 set up...I.e reversed Classical Dutch)   I think the extra tempo can make a difference.     As White, one is no longer racing against the center being put in "Lock Down"...(which with me always leads to  bad position's when I play the Classical Dutch)

Keith Hayward played the Bird a long long time. And Taylor doesn't seem to be quitting. (as far as I know)  S Williams  plays both the Classical Dutch and the Bird!... last time I checked he's   now a GM with a rating 2550)  Then there's Danielsen  and  Larsen played at a level none of us will see.  Hell...even GM Robert Huebner has played it and done pretty well... again another very very strong GM for his day.

So much of opening theory is subjective.... especially concerning opening's of this nature.   I say play it and have fun with it. 
« Last Edit: 12/31/09 at 10:09:59 by Paul123 »  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Merits of 1.f4.
Reply #32 - 12/30/09 at 22:08:31
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Unfortunately Henry Bird's own writings were not inspiring. Maybe Robinson's book on Bird's Opening would be to your taste. Descriptive notation, an old book from the 1950ies. But a labour of love. It starts with a photo of Henry Bird. Of course there are good recent works on 1.f4, but I like the "fighting spirit" of Bird's games in Robinson's attractive little work.
  
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Re: Merits of 1.f4.
Reply #31 - 12/30/09 at 21:39:20
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 12/30/09 at 21:17:30:
BirdBrain, it is only natural that you prefer Henry Bird's 3...Nd4 over other moves.

HA!  That is one of the best posts I have read...funny, yet true!  I guess me and Henry have a couple things in common, except, well...he would have slaughtered me at chess.  But, besides that...  Cheesy
  
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Re: Merits of 1.f4.
Reply #30 - 12/30/09 at 21:17:30
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BirdBrain, it is only natural that you prefer Henry Bird's 3...Nd4 over other moves.
  
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Re: Merits of 1.f4.
Reply #29 - 12/30/09 at 20:46:38
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And I think you are right...the setup is not enough for an initial advantage.  And if I was going to be playing at more serious levels, I would most likely want to study something else.  But the downside is, the closer to a mainline I get into, the better chance my opponent has of knowing a tricky line against it that I have not studied - in turn, I spend more time trying to find ways to play my "new" opening.  Honestly, with 1. f4, I most of the time achieve my best opening results.  Why?  I have a much better grasp of the themes of that opening than any other opening on the board.  I have worked with it longer.  For instance, I don't mind playing the Black side of the Ruy, but I don't play ...a6.  I think it still gives White too many options.  I would rather play 3. Nd4!?, a more forcing move.  I think Black begins to put his two cents in rather early with that move.  Don't get me wrong, ...a6 is great.  I am fully convinced of it.  But the workload becomes greater fooling with that opening, and I like the flow of 3...Nd4!? - I like the early ...h5 lines, I think they are very interesting - perhaps not as solid as some other Lopez lines, but they are interesting and fit my style.  So it is with 1. f4.  I cannot claim an advantage, but I am playing into an opening that I understand.
  
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MNb
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Re: Merits of 1.f4.
Reply #28 - 12/30/09 at 02:23:24
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BirdBrain wrote on 12/29/09 at 14:14:05:
Another thing about 1. f4 is the ability to transpose.  I am a huge believer in transpositions.
I read the comment about David Flude giving up after seeing 1. f4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6...why?  Was it because the positions were too sterile for his liking?  White still has plenty of chances.  He can either play 3. e4 and go into Sicilian waters, which is not at all unfavorable, or he can play 3. d3, 3. e3, 3. g3, 3. b3...there are quite a few solid options...and each has a different pathway.


Because you are not the only one who believes in transpositions and because just a solid continuation is not enough in corr chess.

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1209432759

Btw I have played the Iljin-Zjenevsky as Black for almost 15 years now. So I think I have some right to say that this setup with reversed colours (ie e3, Be2) is not potent enough to play for an advantage.
For more information see Keith Hayward's site (stored in the archieves), someone who has not only much more experience than me (and Taylor) but is also a far better chess player. Note that Hayward beat Taylor with 1.f4 in 1990.

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.geocities.com/drawyah/
http://www.chessville.com/UCO/TRNT/TheRoadNotTaken.htm
http://www.chessville.com/UCO/FromNeoFromtoKingsGambit.htm
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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