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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C40: The Elephant gambit (Read 38516 times)
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #57 - 09/05/18 at 12:30:19
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Any chance to know more about this project, i.e publication date ? Even approximate ...  Wink
  
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #56 - 04/18/18 at 06:59:04
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Don’t trust the machine too much...
I think you will be pleasantly surprised by what we have found after 6.c4.
  
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #55 - 04/18/18 at 00:48:26
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@an ordinary chessplayer: Thank you for your feedback! You are right, I should have kept the references to my sources.

But as 99% of my analysis is for my own private use, I normally only note my sources in the file and don't enter all the detailed references, as this takes a lot of time and is unnecessary if I don't intend to publish the analysis.

There are only 2 points where a Corbin game was used, and at both points White played in a suboptimal way rather early.
In Kaissiber 22 Rogers gives the remark that White should just give back the pawn on e5 after Qe7 or 0-0, as the control over the dark squares would give him a clearly better game. The machine agrees...

Unfortunately the other Kaissiber articles I possess don't deal with 6.c4, but other variations.

I noticed however by going over Corbin's games that he seemed to experience consistent problems after 6.c4, and that most of his higher rated opponents would play this move.

So "based on" was perhaps a rather strong expression, more appropriate would seem "inspired by".



I get your point about refuting the Elephant, but if it doesn't matter that/if it is already refuted (in several ways, as you state), I am even more curious what the book will look like, as I can't remember a QC book which promoted a refuted opening.

Perhaps this will be a primer?!
Nevertheless the romantic in me is still hoping for an improvement for Black, to make this actually playable on a decent level.  Roll Eyes
  
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #54 - 04/15/18 at 10:19:42
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You made me look. I interrupted my endgame work to check your variations. Seems pretty good, about as strong as two or three other "refutations" that I already know about. One thing I wished for was seeing some precise attributions given to Corbin or Kaissiber. The only attribution I saw was the Wall-Rogers 2000 game. If the analysis is "based on" Corbin and Kaissiber, they should be given credit where due.

But anyway the reason I said you definitely didn't kill the Elephant is because it can't be done. It's not really good to begin with, and the practitioners already know that. They don't play it because of its theoretical status, they play it because (a) certain players are helpless against this style of play, and (b) it's entertaining as heck.
  
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #53 - 04/15/18 at 08:05:26
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@an ordinary chessplayer: how can you be so sure if you haven't taken a look?

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of sympathy for the Black cause, but I couldn't find a line after 6.c4 that looks playable to me.
Perhaps somebody else can?

I remember some threads here which accompanied the process of writing a book (the Tarrasch book of Ntirlis/Aagaard comes to mind), which is a great thing because the exchange of ideas can really advance theory, especially in such a seldom played opening as the Elephant...
  
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #52 - 04/13/18 at 01:57:41
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You didn’t kill the thread, and you definitely did not kill the Elephant. Maybe everybody is daydreaming about when the announced book will come out. For myself, I haven’t had a chance to look at your analysis - too busy studying endgames.
  
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #51 - 04/12/18 at 20:12:25
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Uh-oh.

Did I kill the thread with my analysis?
Or even the Elephant?  Shocked
  
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #50 - 04/08/18 at 04:13:42
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If you manage to get in touch with Corbin, do ask him for his game against GM Julio Becerra played somewhere around 2013 - 2015 I think, this tournament game never made the databases or his book, but any serious game where a GM faces the Elephant is worth a look.
  

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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #49 - 04/07/18 at 21:04:24
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Here is part of the analysis I did some months ago, inspired by Corbin's games which he made available on his site and some old Kaissiber articles.
I came to the conclusion that White is clearly better after 6.c4, and also better after 6.Bb5+ when he doesn't take on c6 but drops the bishop back to e2.

Even the 3.Ne5: lines I found annoying to play, as they often lead to endgames with symmetrical pawns, but the bishop pair for White, which is not exactly inspiring for Black.



@Dragonslayer: I am curious at what point your improvements lie.
The project sounds very interesting, as you have the best publisher in the market, most of their books are simply excellent! I guess I will get the book just out of interest, even if I am not convinced by the opening.
  
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #48 - 04/07/18 at 10:18:19
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Dragonslayer wrote on 04/05/18 at 15:37:18:
Michael Ayton wrote on 04/03/18 at 10:33:03:
Quote:
would you be interested in selling it? Send me a pm if so.

'Fraid I can't sell it (I might even try playing it sometime! Wink), but do feel free to ask me about anything it says.


fair enough Smiley


I sent you a PM about this Smiley
  

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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #47 - 04/07/18 at 09:06:29
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Sounds like an interesting project indeed.

I always thought that 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d5 3.exd5 Bd6 4.Nc3 is a safe edge for White. If nothing else White can continue in Glek-System style with d3, g3, Bg2, 0-0. But I have to admit I have never looked at it seriously.
  
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #46 - 04/06/18 at 21:57:27
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Sorry, missed the title earlier. Not a GM rep, I guess.
  
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #45 - 04/06/18 at 20:51:26
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So, Jacob, John, et al must think this is a pretty reasonable opening by Black, given the books that QC typically publishes (and the occasional remark about perceived lesser efforts/defenses from other publishers). Can you tell us the title (Playing the Elephant Gambit, perhaps)?
  
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #44 - 04/06/18 at 19:51:13
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 04/06/18 at 08:03:28:
Dragonslayer wrote on 04/05/18 at 15:33:07:
My coauthor is IM Jakob Aabling-Thomsen, and it will be published by Quality Chess and titled The Electrifying Elephant Gambit.

Good to hear about your project. Quality Chess might learn something from your careful research.

You can try this German secondhand chess shop: http://www.schachundmuenzen.de/shop/. It offers "Winning with the Elephant Gambit", saying "Out of Print", but I've put the book in the basket, and the software accepts it.

In the fine Kenilworth list (Michael Goeller) there is one source missing: Friedrich Becker's Fernspiel- und Schachschulung (self-published, 1926). It has 14 correspondence games with 3.exd5 e4 vs some good opponents (e.g. von Bardeleben). An enthusiast's work, his amateurish drawings only add to the fun. Manuel Fruth offers a copy of that Becker book, too.


Dear Stefan
So good to hear from you.
You know, without Kaissiber there would be no book. Rogers’ articles made a great impression on me back in 1998. You set a standard by which every chess writer must measure himself.
Thank you for the info. I hope not to let down everyone’s expectations Smiley

Best regards
Michael
  
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #43 - 04/06/18 at 19:19:09
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TopNotch wrote on 04/06/18 at 16:59:09:
This should make for an interesting project, as very few White Repertoire books take it seriously and as a result provide very skimpy coverage.

An exception to the above would be the following books:

Opening For White According to Anand vol.1 by Khalifman offers a good line that I have used more than once with success OTB. Although full disclosure I know longer use it.

John Shaw in Playing 1. e4: Caro-Kann, 1... e5 and Minor Lines shows it some respect, an offers an interesting Antidote. The engines like his suggestion, but I'm not fully convinced.

An Unbeatable White Repertoire after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 by Larry Evans also offers decent coverage and overall is still quite a good opening book despite its age.

Well that's it off the top of my head, feel free to add to the above list if posters think of something else.

Over and out.


Thx for the pointers! Berliner offers another counter: 1.d4  Wink
  
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #42 - 04/06/18 at 17:54:35
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 04/06/18 at 11:58:34:
Cue 2.000 chessplayers simultaneously attempting to buy the same book online.

I had sent Dragonslayer the info as a PM two days ago.

@TopNotch. I agree, there exist some good replies. It will be interesting to see what the Quality Chessers have found against Shaw's 4.d4 e4 5.Nfd2 (p. 331).
  
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #41 - 04/06/18 at 16:59:09
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This should make for an interesting project, as very few White Repertoire books take it seriously and as a result provide very skimpy coverage.

An exception to the above would be the following books:

Opening For White According to Anand vol.1 by Khalifman offers a good line that I have used more than once with success OTB. Although full disclosure I know longer use it.

John Shaw in Playing 1. e4: Caro-Kann, 1... e5 and Minor Lines shows it some respect, an offers an interesting Antidote. The engines like his suggestion, but I'm not fully convinced.

An Unbeatable White Repertoire after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 by Larry Evans also offers decent coverage and overall is still quite a good opening book despite its age.

Well that's it off the top of my head, feel free to add to the above list if posters think of something else.

Over and out.
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #40 - 04/06/18 at 11:58:34
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Cue 2.000 chessplayers simultaneously attempting to buy the same book online.
  
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #39 - 04/06/18 at 08:03:28
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Dragonslayer wrote on 04/05/18 at 15:33:07:
My coauthor is IM Jakob Aabling-Thomsen, and it will be published by Quality Chess and titled The Electrifying Elephant Gambit.

Good to hear about your project. Quality Chess might learn something from your careful research.

You can try this German secondhand chess shop: http://www.schachundmuenzen.de/shop/. It offers "Winning with the Elephant Gambit", saying "Out of Print", but I've put the book in the basket, and the software accepts it.

In the fine Kenilworth list (Michael Goeller) there is one source missing: Friedrich Becker's Fernspiel- und Schachschulung (self-published, 1926). It has 14 correspondence games with 3.exd5 e4 vs some good opponents (e.g. von Bardeleben). An enthusiast's work, his amateurish drawings only add to the fun. Manuel Fruth offers a copy of that Becker book, too.
  
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #38 - 04/05/18 at 15:39:37
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TopNotch wrote on 04/03/18 at 03:51:39:
Dragonslayer wrote on 04/02/18 at 20:37:00:
I checked it. Maybe it requires one to be logged in.
I cannot upload an imagine, but it is a book cover for a book on the Elephant gambit that I am cowriting.


You should get in touch with this guy https://www.chess.com/member/calypso_chess. He plays the Elephant against all comers and I suspect would have many published as well as unpublished games with it, not to mention anecdotes.

Good luck with the book. Smiley

Thx Top!
I know Corbin’s games very well, they are a lot of fun to play through and Theoretically important too.
His book calypso chess looks fun, might have to buy it.
  
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #37 - 04/05/18 at 15:37:18
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Michael Ayton wrote on 04/03/18 at 10:33:03:
Quote:
would you be interested in selling it? Send me a pm if so.

'Fraid I can't sell it (I might even try playing it sometime! Wink), but do feel free to ask me about anything it says.


fair enough Smiley
  
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #36 - 04/05/18 at 15:33:07
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FightingDragon wrote on 04/03/18 at 16:42:04:
@Dragonslayer: can you share more details?
Any idea when the book shall be published?

Some months ago I took a look at the Elephant, mainly out of casual interest, and played some Blitz games.
Ultimately it was depressing, as I didn't seem to get enough compensation (not even practical one) in most lines.

Good luck with the project!


Thx!
It’s a book from Black’s perspective.
My coauthor is IM Jakob Aabling-Thomsen, and it will be published by Quality Chess and titled The Electrifying Elephant Gambit.
Publishing dates are difficult and best left to publishers, but we are working hard on the material and have many new ideas that are going to reverse evaluations in key lines.
  
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #35 - 04/03/18 at 16:42:04
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@Dragonslayer: can you share more details?
Any idea when the book shall be published?

Some months ago I took a look at the Elephant, mainly out of casual interest, and played some Blitz games.
Ultimately it was depressing, as I didn't seem to get enough compensation (not even practical one) in most lines.

Good luck with the project!
  
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #34 - 04/03/18 at 10:33:03
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Quote:
would you be interested in selling it? Send me a pm if so.

'Fraid I can't sell it (I might even try playing it sometime! Wink), but do feel free to ask me about anything it says.
  
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #33 - 04/03/18 at 03:51:39
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Dragonslayer wrote on 04/02/18 at 20:37:00:
I checked it. Maybe it requires one to be logged in.
I cannot upload an imagine, but it is a book cover for a book on the Elephant gambit that I am cowriting.


You should get in touch with this guy https://www.chess.com/member/calypso_chess. He plays the Elephant against all comers and I suspect would have many published as well as unpublished games with it, not to mention anecdotes.

Good luck with the book. Smiley
  

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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #32 - 04/02/18 at 20:37:00
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I checked it. Maybe it requires one to be logged in.
I cannot upload an imagine, but it is a book cover for a book on the Elephant gambit that I am cowriting.
  
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #31 - 04/02/18 at 16:24:04
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Dragonslayer wrote on 04/02/18 at 14:06:34:
TopNotch wrote on 04/01/18 at 17:48:54:
To DragonSlayer, may I ask what is your interest in the Elephant Gambit?!


Here it is Smiley

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10213772705205249&set=a.1325666895143.48...


Ok, I clicked on the link and got the facebook message "Sorry, this content isn't available right now - The link you followed may have expired, or the page may only be visible to an audience you're not in. ".
  

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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #30 - 04/02/18 at 14:06:34
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TopNotch wrote on 04/01/18 at 17:48:54:
To DragonSlayer, may I ask what is your interest in the Elephant Gambit?!


Here it is Smiley

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10213772705205249&set=a.1325666895143.48...
  
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #29 - 04/01/18 at 23:10:34
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TopNotch wrote on 04/01/18 at 17:48:54:
To DragonSlayer, may I ask what is your interest in the Elephant Gambit?!


Yes, but for specific reasons, I will have to wait till tomorrow to answer it  Wink
For now, I will just say that I play the Elephant, you can find some of my games in the databases.
  
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #28 - 04/01/18 at 17:48:54
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To DragonSlayer, may I ask what is your interest in the Elephant Gambit?!
  

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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #27 - 03/31/18 at 13:28:48
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Michael Ayton wrote on 03/30/18 at 07:20:07:
Quote:
Does anyone here have access to or know where to buy a (used) copy of Jonathan Rogers' book "Winning With the Elephant Gambit"?

I have it. And what's more, I've found it!


would you be interested in selling it? Send me a pm if so.
  
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #26 - 03/30/18 at 07:20:07
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Quote:
Does anyone here have access to or know where to buy a (used) copy of Jonathan Rogers' book "Winning With the Elephant Gambit"?

I have it. And what's more, I've found it!
  
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #25 - 03/30/18 at 00:27:21
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So now I see someone cited it ooops!
  
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #24 - 03/30/18 at 00:26:52
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There was a fairly large bibliographical work done by Micheal Goeller (sp?) on a website hosted by the Kenilworthian Chess Club. It is still worth a look.
  
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #23 - 03/27/18 at 05:50:55
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This one is not in any database. I was surprised to find that I actually played it in a rated game once. I'm not sure why I did that, it was hardly necessary given my near perfect record with the Philidor, at least against non-masters. For instance, I had three wins in non-rated time-handicap tournament games against Mr. Kessman with the Philidor, two before the Elephant game, and one after.

I have a bunch of blitz games with the Elephant in my personal database, mostly wins, even one against an IM. One player who learned to handle this opening in blitz was John A. Irwin, a USA expert. After "only" breaking even over several consecutive weekends, he burned the midnight oil and busted a major branch. 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d5 3.exd5! e4 4.Qe2 Nf6 5.d3 Be7 6.dxe4 O-O 7.Nfd2! (Irwin's TN). His plan was f2-f3, c2-c4, Nb1-c3 and black can't get through the barricade. Sadly I don't have any recorded examples. After a few debacles in this line against John I switched permanently to the 3...Bd6 version.

Sorry I can't help you with the Rogers book. At one time I had the Jensen, Purser, Pape (1988) Elephant Gambit (green cover) as a source. All of it was entertaining, but much of it was theoretically irrelevant, and I don't think Elephant theory has advanced at all since then. It's still great fun in blitz though.
  

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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #22 - 03/25/18 at 10:04:57
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Does anyone here have access to or know where to buy a (used) copy of Jonathan Rogers' book "Winning With the Elephant Gambit"?
I am also looking for interesting games with the Elephant gambit that are not in the databases.
  
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #21 - 02/23/17 at 21:33:33
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It can be a real pain in the tusk if one is not used to big game hunting in the opening.
  
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #20 - 02/21/17 at 07:41:30
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The elephant gambit is a great too to have in the chest.
  
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #19 - 08/09/16 at 20:16:10
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I have posted a bibliography on the gambit, which includes links to all of Corbin's games with it, which are a must:
http://kenilworthian.blogspot.com/2012/12/elephant-gambit-c40-bibliography_12.ht...

I used it in blitz for a while.  As with all wild lines, nobody ever played the book lines against me.  It is totally playable and fun, especially at the amateur level.
  
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Re: C40: The Elephant gambit
Reply #18 - 06/19/16 at 13:19:31
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The Game Julian Hodgson vs JD Turner, for anyone who's curious

  

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Re: The Elephant gambit
Reply #17 - 02/22/11 at 00:29:42
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I love the Elephant Gambit.  The first game in this thread is an example of a brilliant sacrifical attack by Black. 

I want to give another one that's kind of the opposite.  This is Crafty without book, playing itself after the initial moves 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d5 3.exd5 Bd6.  Obviously two strong and evenly-matched players.  Black seems to play patiently a pawn down, and continues the attack late into the endgame. 

4.Nc3 Nf6 5.Bb5+ c6 6.dxc6 Nxc6 7.O-O O-O 8.d3 Bg4 9.Bxc6 bxc6 10.Re1 Qc7 11.h3 Bh5 12.Bg5 Nd5 13.Ne4 f5 14.Ng3 Bxf3 15.Qxf3 Rab8 16.c4 Nf4 17.b3 Bb4 18.Red1 Ne6 19.Qh5 Nd4

In watching the game, I felt at this point that White had weakened himself with 16.c4 and Black had some compensation. 

20.Bd2 a5 21.Kh1 Qf7 22.Qxf7+ Kxf7 23.Rac1 Ke6 24.f3 Rfd8 25.Bc3 f4 26.Ne4

Now I was thinking that Black had weakened e5 and traded Queens, so maybe White was better off.  But play continued...

26...Ne2 27.Bxb4 axb4 28.Rc2 Nd4 29.Rf2 Ra8 30.Rb2 Ra7 31.Kg1 Rda8 32.Rdd2 h6

Now it's obvious that Black really does have continuing pressure.  The computer doesn't have a constructive plan in this kind of position, and Black fares better in the aimless play that follows. 

33.Kf2 g6 34.Ke1 g5 35.Kf2 Kf5 36.Kf1 h5 37.Nf2 Rd7 38.Ne4 Rda7 39.Rf2 Rg7 40.Kg1 g4

This looks like it is going to be a big problem.

41.hxg4+ hxg4 42.fxg4+ Rxg4 43.Nd6+ Ke6 44.Ne4 Rh8 45.Rbd2 Rh3 46.Rf1 f3 47.Ra1 fxg2 48.Rxg2 Ne2+ 49.Kf2 Rxg2+ 50.Kxg2 Nf4+ 51.Kf2 Nxd3+ 52.Ke2 Nf4+ 53.Kf2 Kf5

After all that it's a late endgame with equal material.  Black still has an attack, and an unopposed passed pawn. 

54.Nd6+ Kg6 55.Ne4 Ne6

Now White tries to disentangle himself.  In response, the Black King launches a fatal attack. 

56.Rg1+  Kf5 57.Ng3+ Kf4 58.Ne2+ Ke4 59.Ng3+ Kd3 60.Rd1+ Kc3 61.Ne4+ Kb2 62.Rd2+ Ka3 63.Kg2 Rd3 64.Rxd3 Nf4+ 65.Kf3 Nxd3 66.Ke2 Nf4+ 67.Kf3 Ne6 68.Kg4 Kxa2 69.Kf5 Kxb3 70.Kxe6 Kc2 71.Kxe5 b3 and White is busted.

It's not going to be remembered as a contribution to opening theory, but it does make me feel that Black has great practical chances with this opening! 
  
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Re: The Elephant gambit
Reply #16 - 01/11/10 at 22:35:03
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[quote]As this is a theoretical forum and not one for hide & seek it would be very interesting what the experts themselves say. Otherwise, what are we talking about here? [/quote]

Well, this is a good point! I notice meanwhie that a post of mine from years ago mentioned 9 Nc3, in pointing out that ("yes I know") Schiller himself had -- I'd just forgotten about it! Has anyone got any updates on the Schiller busts, then? -- I haven't. Move six yes of course, but I don't see what alternatives Black might have on move seven in S-C ... Am I missing something?
« Last Edit: 01/12/10 at 00:58:45 by Michael Ayton »  
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Re: The Elephant gambit
Reply #15 - 01/09/10 at 20:41:49
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CraigEvans wrote on 01/09/10 at 12:07:01:
Against God, I would demand white and play the BDG, to find out once and for all what the refutation is. I could then die happy.

As for the Elephant... it is far harder for white to prove an advantage against this opening than he may want. My record with both 3...Bd6 and 3...e4 is over 50%, and I have been on the wrong end of a smashing as white against the Elephant, against the creative Welsh player JD Turner, who has turned over some IMs himself in his time. (And, also, mated Hodgson in something like 12 moves as black in a simultaneous, with the crazy but completely unsound 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3 e4 4.Ng5 Ng4 - but that's an aside).


Sounds like fun! Can you give us the complete game score?
  
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Re: The Elephant gambit
Reply #14 - 01/09/10 at 13:10:31
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If you read through the article "Filling the chess zoo" in NIC Yearbook 76 (and the following 77) you get the impression that either playing an early c4 or Bb5 is sufficent for a good advantage for White.

As this is a theoretical forum and not one for hide & seek it would be very interesting what the experts themselves say. Otherwise, what are we talking about here?
  
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Re: The Elephant gambit
Reply #13 - 01/09/10 at 12:07:01
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Against God, I would demand white and play the BDG, to find out once and for all what the refutation is. I could then die happy.

As for the Elephant... it is far harder for white to prove an advantage against this opening than he may want. My record with both 3...Bd6 and 3...e4 is over 50%, and I have been on the wrong end of a smashing as white against the Elephant, against the creative Welsh player JD Turner, who has turned over some IMs himself in his time. (And, also, mated Hodgson in something like 12 moves as black in a simultaneous, with the crazy but completely unsound 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3 e4 4.Ng5 Ng4 - but that's an aside).
  

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Re: The Elephant gambit
Reply #12 - 01/08/10 at 04:01:23
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Dragonslayer,

Quote:
9.Nc3! with or without an engine.


It seems fair to point out that, without an engine, and without a copy of Kaissiber at his elbow, and with his clock ticking, an IM didn't "find" 9.Nc3. If he had, I have no doubt that Philip would have done something very creative anyway. But if you don't like those positions, remember that Black has alternatives at move 7, and at move 6, and at move 3.

Are these alternatives "sound" -- from God's perspective, or even from Rybka's? I don't know; perhaps not. I'll keep that in mind next time I play God (or Rybka), and I'll be sure to adopt something theoretically approved so that I can get ground down in altogether respectable fashion. But against mere 2400-level IMs, I'll drag the game into the swamp, and I'll take my chances.  Wink
  
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Re: The Elephant gambit
Reply #11 - 01/07/10 at 23:06:06
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[quote author=7B787274150 link=1262053784/10#10 date=1262873441]Many thanks again ... Yes, it's quite a game! I shall take another look, both with and without an engine ...

[/quote]
9.Nc3! with or without an engine.
I can sympathize if people do not want to disclose their secret TNs, but:
In 1997 Gary Lane gave 9.Nc3 as critical in the German magazine Kaissiber 2.
In the same issue Jonathan Rogers claimed he had an improvement over Lane's analysis.
There already was Cunliffe-Rogers, corr 1996 (9...Nxc6 10.d5 0-0 11.Bxc6 Ba6 etc. 1-0 31)
Then Schenning-Flude, email 1998, 11...Ng4 and 0-1/36. However, that game was won for White.
Most recent is:H.Hunt-J.Rogers, Sunningdale 2008, where White deviated with 11.Be3 Qb8 12.Bxc6. 1-0/25.
So
1) How does Black improve on Hunt-Rogers? (11...Qc7 is maybe worth a try)
2) What did Rogers intend after 11.Bxc6 ?
  
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Re: The Elephant gambit
Reply #10 - 01/07/10 at 14:10:41
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Many thanks again ... Yes, it's quite a game! I shall take another look, both with and without an engine ...

PS. Have only just noticed now that the game is quoted above. Doh!
  
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Re: The Elephant gambit
Reply #9 - 01/06/10 at 21:32:11
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Michael,

I must take some credit (or blame!) for encouraging Philip to play the Elephant at that Olympiad. He had a bad experience with it in one earlier game, and I urged him to try it again. I well remember his exultant email I received when he crushed his titled opponent so dramatically.

Philip deserves his moniker as "The Caribbean Tal" -- the game is simply astonishing, as Black plays (to borrow a phrase from E. J. Diemer) "von ersten Zug an auf Matt." Computer analysis might discover a hole in Philip's play (maybe 15.Nd2 improves, though it's not entirely clear: White needs to improve on the line 15...e3 16.Ne4 Bb4+ 17.Kf1 Nxc4 18.d6! Ne5! 19.Bd5+ Kh8 20.b3 Ba6 21.Bc4 Nxc4 22.bxc4 Rc8!), but the point is that he took the astonishing risk of sacrificing the entire Rook in order to keep White's King in the center and mobilize everything else he had. How many of us would do that OTB at a World Olympiad, even if we had studied that very line beforehand? That takes admirable courage.

As I recall, Philip won another Elephant at the same event and drew a third, all with higher-rated players. And then, a couple of years later, there was the dramatic downing of Nigel Short ...
  
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Re: The Elephant gambit
Reply #8 - 01/06/10 at 17:22:19
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Very interesting, Blackburne. I appreciate you won't want to give away your secrets, but do feel free to say more (re good lines for White, less good ...)! Any thoughts on Sakelsek-Corbin?
  
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Re: The Elephant gambit
Reply #7 - 01/03/10 at 18:50:40
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I have played the Elephant several thousand times in blitz on the ICC and found it to be a very effective weapon, even against titled players. Yes, there are a couple of lines that are theoretically supposed to end up in a plus for White, but my opponents found them in only about 3% of those games, and even there familiarity and a few quirky TNs are easily worth a pawn at blitz or bullet time controls. And at least twice as many opponents fell into something horrible and lost in 15 moves or less.

I've also taught it to a young student who turned around and shellacked the opposition with it in local and state level tournaments. If you're looking for an opening that can be learned and played pretty quickly and has lots of atom bomb potential against an unprepared opponent, check it out.

Since I had put the time into learning it, I have also played the Elephant OTB, beating a master with it in my last outing. (Not entirely due to the opening: I equalized pretty easily and probably had =+, but then mutual errors ensued, mine being the next-to-last.)

I'm not claiming that it is an industrial-strength opening, but TN's final remark is just about right. If you like the Elephant, play it!

Incidentally: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d5 3.Nxd5 Bd6 4.d4 dxe4 5.Bc4 Bxe5 6.Qh5 Qe7 7.Qxe5 Qxe5 8.dxe5 Nc6 is nothing special for White, += at best. The Bishop pair looks nice, but it seems that there's no way to take advantage of it. I was always content to see this line come up.
  
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Re: The Elephant gambit
Reply #6 - 12/31/09 at 12:18:15
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The Elephant surely cannot be sound! -- but blimey can it be dangerous as an occasional weapon in the right context, as well as being great fun. I had thought Sakelsek-- Corbin was best play for White (and Black), though White went wrong and lost. Am I wrong?
  
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Re: The Elephant gambit
Reply #5 - 12/31/09 at 06:59:57
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The problem with this opening is that it is unplayable at 2300+ level, and sets the player up for bad habits later onward, especially the trap of playing trappy but dubious openings. McDonald's 'Starting Out: 1.e4' is one book which contained a refutation that looked pretty convincing to me.

But if you aren't trying to become a titled player and just play for enjoyment, then by all means play the Elephant Gambit and enjoy your chess. Smiley
  

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Re: The Elephant gambit
Reply #4 - 12/31/09 at 02:56:12
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YES i love this opening.  It is part of my "African Safari" (Animal Crackers) repertoire, although i must admit sometimes to playing the Lion or Hippopotamus, depending on my mood and the amount of gasoline in the jeep.  1.d4 gives an additional option of aiming for the Vulture.  Those rotten hyenas never see it coming.  As white just play the Orangutan and the opponent won't see the monkeys from the trees or however the saying goes.  For background reading i can recommend Tiger's Modern by, you know, Tiger (not THAT Tiger)-- The Black Lion-- and also Chess for Zebras by the great African tribal chieftain Jonathan Rowson.
  

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Re: The Elephant gambit
Reply #3 - 12/30/09 at 18:46:20
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A couple of links:

http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kibitz15.txt
is an old kibitzer column by Harding with good discussion of various lines

http://www.ericschiller.com/pdf/ElephantGambit_SBACO.pdf
are a few pages from a Schiller book [yeah, I know Roll Eyes] discussing the gambit from White's perspective.
  

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Re: The Elephant gambit
Reply #2 - 12/30/09 at 17:06:40
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The annotated Short-Corbin game was fun to play through.
  

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Re: The Elephant gambit
Reply #1 - 12/30/09 at 15:44:29
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Here are a couple of lines against the Elephant:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d5 3. Nxe5 dxe4 4. d4 Bd6 5. Bc4 Bxe5 6. Qh5 Qe7 7. Qxe5

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d5 3. Nxe5 dxe4 4. d4 Be7 5. Bc4 Be6 6. Bxe6 fxe6 7. Qh5+ g6 8. Nxg6 Nf6 9. Qb5+ c6 10. Qxb7

  
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C40: The Elephant gambit
12/29/09 at 02:29:44
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I did not find a thread about this opening so I had to creat a one. A game found from 'chess' magazine:

Tadej Sakelsek vs Philip Corbin
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d5 3.ed5 Bd6 4.d4 e4 5.Ne5 Nf6 Bb5 c6 7.dc6 bc6 8.Nc6 Qb6 9.c4 Nc6 10.d5 0-0 11.Bc6 Ng4 12.Qe2 f5 13.Ba8 f4 14.f3 Ne5 15.Nc3 ef3 16.gf3 Bf5 17.Ne4 Bb4 18.Kd1 Qd4 19.Kc2 Nf3 20.Rd1 Be4 21.Kb3 Rb8 22.Bc6 Bd2 23.Bb5 Rb5 24.cb5 Qb4#

Another game from Corbin: http://www.thechessdrum.net/palview3/short-corbin.htm
« Last Edit: 07/19/11 at 13:50:57 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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