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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) B76: Some ideas on 9.g4 (Read 60537 times)
XChess1971
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Re: B76: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #47 - 07/06/19 at 05:02:20
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Smaug wrote on 04/22/19 at 18:42:33:
Paddy wrote on 09/21/11 at 10:53:18:
... I was intrigued by GM Spraggett's comment on his blog:

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.g4 Be6 "I am surprised that this line is becoming popular today, especially since White seems to have 'forgotten' that the problem lies in this variation: 9...Bxg4!? 10.fxg4 Nxg4 11.Nb3!? d5! 12.exd5 Bxc3!! I just don't see what White can do here!  Black seems to be in great shape. However, Cmilyte played 9...Be6 and got slowly outplayed by the woman World Champion."


Any new opinions or detail on this line? I'm enjoying the dragon in general but don't have an answer to 9.g4. Stockfish 10 loves white in the quoted 9...Bxg4 line, and won 4 of 4 games in a little self play match I had it play yesterday. So in general, how does black put pressure on white here, or at least try to draw?


Pretty interesting. I believe this 9...Bxg4 appeared in the beginning of the 90's. If not wrong 11.Nb3 used to be considered best. On that 11.Nb3 d5 12.exd5 Bxc3 it looks like 13.bxc3 is best (13.Qxc3 Qxd5 14.Rg1 Qe4 15.Rg3 Nxe3 16.Qxe3 [16.Rxe3 Qh4+ 17.Rg3 Rfd8] 13...Qxc2 with 4 pawns for the piece!) 13...Nxe3 14.Qxe3 (14.dxc6 Qb6! 15.cxb7 Rad8 16.Bd3 f5 with compensation) 14...Qxd5 15.Rg1 Rfd8 and black will have to demonstrate if he really has compensation for the sacrificed piece!

I guess not everybody likes to sacrifice a piece and play a possible ending.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: B76: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #46 - 04/23/19 at 12:16:08
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Can you attach the pgn of this mini-match? I don't know anything about this 9...Bxg4 line and I'm curious what the engine came up with.
  
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Re: B76: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #45 - 04/22/19 at 18:42:33
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Paddy wrote on 09/21/11 at 10:53:18:
... I was intrigued by GM Spraggett's comment on his blog:

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.g4 Be6 "I am surprised that this line is becoming popular today, especially since White seems to have 'forgotten' that the problem lies in this variation: 9...Bxg4!? 10.fxg4 Nxg4 11.Nb3!? d5! 12.exd5 Bxc3!! I just don't see what White can do here!  Black seems to be in great shape. However, Cmilyte played 9...Be6 and got slowly outplayed by the woman World Champion."


Any new opinions or detail on this line? I'm enjoying the dragon in general but don't have an answer to 9.g4. Stockfish 10 loves white in the quoted 9...Bxg4 line, and won 4 of 4 games in a little self play match I had it play yesterday. So in general, how does black put pressure on white here, or at least try to draw?
  
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Re: B76: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #44 - 10/03/11 at 16:48:32
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AZ wrote on 10/03/11 at 14:01:41:
I know that nothing above was forced but it gives some insight in these complicated (more interesting than in 9. g4 Be6 variations IMHO) positions. Well, there are also 10. h3 d5! dynamic lines...

What you think more or less interesting than 9...Be6 is subjective. I maintain that your lines (and yes, White can improve) basically do not solve Black's problems, at least not on short term. But I do not exclude the possibility that a 40 moves deep systematical analysis will show that Black can draw in more than one way, no.
  
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Re: B76: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #43 - 10/03/11 at 14:01:41
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I think in 12.Nb3 variation better is 14...Ne5! (saving from an exchange useful black knight from useless white knight)15.f4 (15.Be2 b6 16.Nb3 Be6 17.Nd4 Bc4 18.Bxc4 Nxc4 19.Bh6 Rfc8 20.b3 Kh7 21.Bg5 f6=) 15...Ng4 16.Re1 e5! 17.h3 Ngf6 18.fxe5 dxe5 19.Rg1 Nf4 20.Bxf4 (20.h4 N6h5 21.Nc4 f6 22.Nd6 Rd8 23.Bc4+ Kh7 24.Bb4 Ng7 25.a4 Be6=) 20...exf4 21.Bg2 Nh5 22.e5 Rb8 23.Nc4 Ng3 24.Nd6 Kg7 with unclear position - in such positions two bishops (if they stay for a long) may not be so strong, because knights have some strong spots; moreover Black has better pawn structure 

Some time ago I analised position after 12.Rg1 Nxd4 13.Bxd4 Bxd4 14.Qxd4 Be6 15.Bc4:
15...Bxc4 16.Qxc4 Rac8 (with a tempo) 17.Qb3 [17.Qd5 Qxd5 18.Nxd5 Rfe8 19.Rd2 Kg7 20.c3 Nf6=] 17...Nf4 18.Nd5

[18.Qxb7? Rxc3 -/+; 
18.Kb1 Rxc3 19.bxc3 Ne2 20.Rxg6+ Kh7 21.Rgg1 Nxc3+ 22.Kb2 Nxd1+ 23.Rxd1 Qe5+=; 
18.Rd2 Qc5 19.Re1 Qe5 20.Qxb7 Rxc3 21.bxc3 Qxc3 22.Red1 Qa1+ 23.Qb1 Qc3 24.Qb2 Qxf3 with a compensation] 

18...Nxd5 19.Rxd5 

[19.exd5 Rc5 20.h4 Rfc8 21.h5 Rb5 22.Qd3 Qb4  23.b3? (23.Qa3 Qxa3 24.bxa3 Rc3 =/+) 23...Qa3+ 24.Kb1 (24.Kd2 Rcc5 25.Ke3 Rxd5 26.Qxd5 Rxd5 27.Rxd5 Qb4 28.Ke2 e6 29.Rdg5 Qc3-/+) 24...Ra5 25.hxg6 (25.Rxg6+ Kf8 26.Rg2 Qxa2+ 27.Kc1 Qa1+ 28.Kd2 Qe5-/+) 25...Qxa2+ 26.Kc1 Rxc2+ 27.Qxc2 Rc5 28.Qxc5 dxc5-/+] 

19...Qa6 20.h4 Qc4 21.Qxc4 Rxc4 22.h5 Kg7 23.Kd2 [23.Rdg5 Rc5=] 23...Rh8   
24.Rg2 [24.Kd3 Rc5=] 24...e6 25.Rdg5 [25.Rxd6 Rxh5 26.Rd7 Rhc5 27.c3 Rc7=] 25...Rc5 26.Rxc5 dxc5 27.hxg6 fxg6 28.e5 Rd8+ 29.Ke3 Rd1 30.a4 Re1+ 31.Kf4 c4=
 
I know that nothing above was forced but it gives some insight in these complicated (more interesting than in 9. g4 Be6 variations IMHO) positions. Well, there are also 10. h3 d5! dynamic lines...
  
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Re: B76: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #42 - 10/03/11 at 10:14:38
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12.Nb3 Bxc3 13.Nxa5 Bxd2+ 14.Bxd2 Nxa5 15.Bxa5 and White has the pair of Bishops.
12.Rg1 Nxd4 13.Bxd4 Bxd4 14.Qxd4 Be6 15.Bc4 and Black still hasn't solved all his/her problems. If Black reactivates Nh5 White can try h2-h4-h5 again.
In neither case it's great shakes, but, to paraphrase Markovich, White has a bit more than he/she had at move 1.
  
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Re: B76: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #41 - 10/03/11 at 09:36:48
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Thanks a lot for yours quick response!

10.h3 seems to be critical but I like Black's compensation in the main line 10...d5! (Golubev's Gambit)11.g5 Nh7 12.Nxd5 Be6! - anyone wants to play this position with white? If it's possible, maybe some game played here would shed some light on the variation?

10.g:h5 is a solid response. After 11.0-0-0 better than 11...Bd7 from the mentioned game is 11...Qa5! with the idea that after 12.Rg1 (12.Nb3 Bxc3!; 12.Bc4 Qb4!; 12.Be2 Nf4!) Black plays 12...Nxd4 13.Bxd4 Bxd4 14.Qxd4 Be6 - and a bishop is better placed on e6 than d7, a knight from h5 in some variations jumps via f4. I think Black has a good game here, not worse than in the main line: 9.g4 Be6. Maybe we should check it here with some game?
  
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Re: B76: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #40 - 10/03/11 at 03:02:57
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Concerning 9.g4 h5 I refer to De Firmian-Garcia Martinez, Olympiade 1984. White played 10.gxh5 Nxh5 11.O-O-O. The Knight on h5 is offside, so combined play in the centre and on the King's wing should promise an advantage.
  
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Re: B76: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #39 - 10/02/11 at 11:11:37
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Since I have never played 9 g4 as white am not sure. According to Fritz statistics whites best move is h3, waiting for black to commit.

..............................................................

Korchnoi has also played 9 .. Nd7, but I suspect white is better there after both h4 and 0-0-0 but I have never played it with either side.
« Last Edit: 10/03/11 at 03:03:19 by MNb »  
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Re: B76: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #38 - 10/02/11 at 09:04:58
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Hello!
Why not 9...h5? What's the punisher?
  
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Re: B76: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #37 - 09/28/11 at 08:59:28
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not so new to him, as I was checking MCO-14th ed. the other day and 11. h4 Qa5 12. h5 Rfc8 13. hxg6 was mentioned based on Nunn-Ward, 1984!
  
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Re: B76: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #36 - 09/27/11 at 20:57:25
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The line I mentioned at the last updade at subscription section with Nxd4 Bxd4 Be6 is annotated by Ward who seems to be entusiastic about they new idea, in the passed he thought this was simply winning for white but he seems confident about blacks position. However I have not yet had time to analyse hes anotations so I dont know.
  
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Re: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #35 - 09/27/11 at 10:49:34
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MNb wrote on 09/26/11 at 13:28:38:

...
If 10.Nxe6 is dangerous as well then White has an equally aggressive option with 9.g4, similar in ideas. I'm not so sure if 9...Nxd4 10.Bxd4 Be6 11.h4 is objectively better, mainly because I haven't all the transpositions figured out yet - White always can castle Queenside if it suits, though usually has to play a2-a3 first. For instance, to anticipate line d above, 11...Qa5 12.h5 Rfc8 13.hxg6 hxg6 14.a3 (14.g5 Nh5 15.Bxg7 Kxg7 16.f4 Skacel-Vacek, CZE 2005, Nxf4 17.Qxf4 Rxc3 -+) Rab8 (b5 at once) and now 15.O-O-O b5 transposes. But is 15.Bd3 really better?


and @bragesjo above as well:

I thought this was one of the central ideas in the 10. NxBe6 lines: if Black tries to avoid this exchange via 9. g4 NxNd4 10. BxNd4 Be6 then 11. h4!? and there is no need to castle! I usually follow this up with the quick h4-h5-h6 plan. After the exchange of 1 pair of Knights the White King feels safe enough to reside in the centre for a while..
  
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Re: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #34 - 09/26/11 at 16:58:35
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fling wrote on 09/26/11 at 14:33:11:
I am at work too. I think I have seen this line or something similar (as in maybe not with a3) by transposition in Experts vs the Sicilian. Is this correct?


There is a similar line in 9 0-0-0 yugoslav after Nxd4 10 Bxd4 Be6 but white can play Kb1 instead of g4. After Kb1 Qa5 at once is prevented so black needs to play Qc7 followed by Rfc8 in order to play Qa5. White is a tempo up and it changes the position considerly and white gets a strong attack, like playng  a qucik h4 - h5 instead of g4..
  
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Re: B76: Some ideas on 9.g4
Reply #33 - 09/26/11 at 15:58:07
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9.g4 Be6 10.O-O-O Nxd4 10.Bxd4 Qa5 12.a3 Rab8 13.h4 b5 14.h5 b4 15.hxg6 bxa3 16.gxh7+ Kh8 17.b3 Rfc8 18.g5 Bxb3 19.gxf6 Bxf6 20.Bb5 looks rather unclear to me, but 15...hxg6 16.Nd5 and 16.Nb1 seem both to be insufficient.
I suppose the point of 9.g4 Nxd4 10.Bxd4 Be6 11.h4 Qa5 12.h5 Rab8 is something like 13.hxg6 hxg6 14.a3 b5 15.b4 Qa6 16.Nxb5 (or 16.a4) Qb7 17.g5 Nh5 18.Bxg7 Kxg7 19.Qd4+ Kg8 20.f4 with an ongong attack.
  
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