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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 what to play? (Read 40720 times)
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Re: 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 what to play?
Reply #28 - 01/03/10 at 16:40:27
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I ran across a game in chessgames.com from 1977 between Sigurjonsson and Larsen which the "Great Dane" won in 42 moves, though White seemed to be holding his own into the endgame.

1. e4 Nf6; 2. e5 Nd5; 3. d4 d6; 4. Nf3 Nb6; 5. a4 c6; 6. a5 Nd5; 7. Be2 g6; 8. 0-0 Bg7; 9. c4 Nc7; 10. exd6 Qxd6; 11. Nc3 0-0...

Of course Larsen might have simply won because he was one of the strongest players in the world at that time.
  
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Re: 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 what to play?
Reply #27 - 01/02/10 at 22:19:16
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sure, usually good players motivate and play "sound" variations

however, looking at the variation with 4...Nb6 (which seems quite interesting, deserving much more attention than it had - despite the Karolyi NYC yearbook articles) I dont see many games followed
by Nc6
  
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Re: 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 what to play?
Reply #26 - 01/02/10 at 22:13:50
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lg wrote on 01/02/10 at 21:48:39:
take a look at Bogdanov, (by the way just noticed it) as well
and did Mikenas win?


In three games that I have the results of, he only scored 0.5.  However, since he returned to this quite a few times (he first encountered the line with 7.h3 in 1962 and faced it as late as 1979), he must have thought that it was O.K. for Black.  It would probably be worthwhile to try to find some more games of his with this.  Some that I know of but do not have complete scores of are Aronin-Mikenas, Riga 1962; Lindergarten-Mikenas, Riga 1962; Mnatsakanian-Mikenas, USSR 1967.  I am not advocating 5...Nc6, or 6...Nb6, just saying that with this provenance, it deserves a serious looking at.
  

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Re: 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 what to play?
Reply #25 - 01/02/10 at 21:48:39
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take a look at Bogdanov, (by the way just noticed it) as well
and did Mikenas win?
  
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Re: 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 what to play?
Reply #24 - 01/02/10 at 21:40:57
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lg wrote on 01/02/10 at 20:33:55:
After 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. O-O

why is 6...Nb6 the only independent move?
Both 6...dxe5 and e6 (this even appeared, although, Black's moves 5 and 6 have been reversed, in one of the main games of Davies book) lead to lines NOT appearing in other variations.

I also thought that 6...Nb6 has been dismissed a long time ago as weak, no?

7.h3 ! (in Burguess) Bxf3 8.Bxf3 dxe5 the recommended move is  first 9. Bxc6+ (instead of dxe5) bxc6 and only then 10. dxe5 and this gives White a very good game



Either Burgess exaggerates White's advantage, or Mikenas was dead wrong. Since Mikenas returned to this many times, I wouldn't dismiss it on the say-so of Burgess, who merely quotes Bagirov's main line and sticks a stronger conclusion on it.  Personally I think 7.a4, not 7.h3, probably deserves the exclamation point.

6...e6 just transposes into the OML.  But yes, 6...dxe5 can be played.  7.Nxe5 Nxe5 (7...Bxe2 8.Qxe2 Nxd4? 9.Qc4) 8.dxe5 Bf5 9.Qb3 += for example.

[I wonder if we could transfer the discussions of Mikenas, the man, to another thread.  Monitor?]
  

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Re: 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 what to play?
Reply #23 - 01/02/10 at 21:10:41
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Schaakhamster wrote on 01/02/10 at 18:41:57:
One of those delightfull unknow Soviet masters that in their time would have beaten the crap out of most contemporary non-Soviet Grandmasters.

That's quite an exaggeration. For one thing there weren't many GM's in Mikenas' time. Being from 1910 "his time" was between about 1935 and 1955. Mikenas did not exactly beat the crap out of Capablanca, Euwe, Eliskases, Fine and Tartakower. In 1939 he failed to beat Van Scheltinga (one of those fine unknown Dutch masters hehehe) twice at the Buenos Aires Olympiade.
After 1940 he did not (was not allowed to) play in the west, but in 1948 Mikenas also lost at least twice against Nezhmetdinov. His results against Alekhine are impressive though and so is his 5th place in the URSch of 1944.
  

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Re: 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 what to play?
Reply #22 - 01/02/10 at 20:33:55
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After 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. O-O

why is 6...Nb6 the only independent move?
Both 6...dxe5 and e6 (this even appeared, although, Black's moves 5 and 6 have been reversed, in one of the main games of Davies book) lead to lines NOT appearing in other variations.

I also thought that 6...Nb6 has been dismissed a long time ago as weak, no?

After

7.h3 ! (in Burguess) Bxf3 8.Bxf3 dxe5 the recommended move is  first 9. Bxc6+ (instead of dxe5) bxc6 and only then 10. dxe5 and this gives White a very good game

  
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Re: 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 what to play?
Reply #21 - 01/02/10 at 19:59:52
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Korch wrote on 01/02/10 at 18:29:54:
Schaakhamster wrote on 01/02/10 at 16:30:32:
Mikenas only became a honorary GM in 1987 but certainly was of GM-strenght.

And he was from Lithuania. It`s true that he was born in Estonia and emigrated to Lithuania in 1931, but he had Lithuanian nationality.


Thanks for the word.  Funny, I assumed that someone of his stature just had to be a GM.  After all, his name comes up in many games, and he has at least two notable variations named after him (in the English and the Modern Benoni).  In those days, they were pretty stingy with the title, though.  He is listed as "EST" in my data base, a clerical error, no doubt.

Concerning 6...Nb6, Bagirov says "This attempt to deviate from the main lines was proposed by the Lithuanian player Vishomirskis and has often been used by Mikenas." 


  

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Re: 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 what to play?
Reply #20 - 01/02/10 at 18:41:57
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Korch wrote on 01/02/10 at 18:29:54:
Schaakhamster wrote on 01/02/10 at 16:30:32:
Mikenas only became a honorary GM in 1987 but certainly was of GM-strenght.

And he was from Lithuania. It`s true that he was born in Estonia and emigrated to Lithuania in 1931, but he had Lithuanian nationality.


Indeed, he played for the Lithuanian olympiadteam in the '30ies before the USSR annexed the Baltic states. One of those delightfull unknow Soviet masters that in their time would have beaten the crap out of most contemporary non-Soviet Grandmasters.
  
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Re: 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 what to play?
Reply #19 - 01/02/10 at 18:29:54
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Schaakhamster wrote on 01/02/10 at 16:30:32:
Mikenas only became a honorary GM in 1987 but certainly was of GM-strenght.

And he was from Lithuania. It`s true that he was born in Estonia and emigrated to Lithuania in 1931, but he had Lithuanian nationality.
  
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Re: 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 what to play?
Reply #18 - 01/02/10 at 16:30:32
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Markovich wrote on 01/02/10 at 15:04:36:
Net Warrior wrote on 12/31/09 at 15:06:30:
Then I was looking at the old main line and found 4.Nf3 Bg4 5.Be2 Nc6!? in a book from the '90's.  The author only gave it sparse coverage but the more I looked at it the more I thought it was playable.  I analysed what I figured would be the 3 main continuations with Fritz 10 and and black was close to equalizing in all three 6. c4, 6. ed, and 6. e6.  It was particularly nice to have the Bishop out in front in the  6. e6 line.  I think there is room for some original play in these lines.   Oh, and keep in mind that I'm only a USCF "A" player so none of this is solid gold.   


I looked into this, and it turns out your judgment of this line is pretty good.  It was played on many occasions by the strong Estonian GM Vladas Mikenas.  I have four of his games with it in my database, and Bagirov mentions others in his 1973 book.

The first thing to understand is that after 6.0-0 the only line of independent significance is 6...Nb6!?, since leaving the knight on d5 permits White to transpose into a version of the Old Main Line where Black's knight appears early on d6.  This is considered disadvantageous, because White will play exd6 followed by d5.  So 6...Nb6, which is the way Mikenas played it, and now there are two challenging moves.

7.h3 Bxf3 (not 7...Bh5 8.e6) 8.Bxf3 exd5 (8...e6 doesn't work out well) 9.exd5 Qxd1 10.Rxd1 e6 and sooner or later White will exchange on c6, debilitating Black's queenside pawns.  Mikenas must have felt that Black could hold the game, however, since he went for this repeatedly.  In the last game in my data base, he is defeated in this line in 1979 with Kengis, of all people, in command of the white pieces.

7.a4 is a very big challenge.  The main point is that 7...dxe5 8.a5 e4 9.Ng5 is very good for White.  Black must try either 7...a5 or 8...Nd7!? 9.a6 b6.  Here Bagirov, aped by Eales, gives 10.dxe5 Ndxe5 11.Nxe5 Qxd1 12.Bxd1 Nxe5 13.Bxg4 Nxg4 14.Bf4 as favorable for White.  This is utter crap, since Black is a pawn up and perfectly safe after 14...e5.  But White also has 10.h3 and 10.c3.  10.h3 Bxf3 11.Bxf3 Nxd4 12.Bxa8 Qxa8 looks about equal to me.  But 10.c3! is a challenge and I will let others now have their say about it.


Mikenas only became a honorary GM in 1987 but certainly was of GM-strenght. I think I'll give this Nc6 stuff a test-run. Bit offbeat but should surprise a few people.
  
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Re: 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 what to play?
Reply #17 - 01/02/10 at 15:04:36
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Net Warrior wrote on 12/31/09 at 15:06:30:
Then I was looking at the old main line and found 4.Nf3 Bg4 5.Be2 Nc6!? in a book from the '90's.  The author only gave it sparse coverage but the more I looked at it the more I thought it was playable.  I analysed what I figured would be the 3 main continuations with Fritz 10 and and black was close to equalizing in all three 6. c4, 6. ed, and 6. e6.  It was particularly nice to have the Bishop out in front in the  6. e6 line.  I think there is room for some original play in these lines.   Oh, and keep in mind that I'm only a USCF "A" player so none of this is solid gold.   


I looked into this, and it turns out your judgment of this line is pretty good.  It was played on many occasions by the strong Estonian GM Vladas Mikenas.  I have four of his games with it in my database, and Bagirov mentions others in his 1973 book.

The first thing to understand is that after 6.0-0 the only line of independent significance is 6...Nb6!?, since leaving the knight on d5 permits White to transpose into a version of the Old Main Line where Black's knight appears early on d6.  This is considered disadvantageous, because White will play exd6 followed by d5.  So 6...Nb6, which is the way Mikenas played it, and now there are two challenging moves.

7.h3 Bxf3 (not 7...Bh5 8.e6) 8.Bxf3 exd5 (8...e6 doesn't work out well) 9.exd5 Qxd1 10.Rxd1 e6 and sooner or later White will exchange on c6, debilitating Black's queenside pawns.  Mikenas must have felt that Black could hold the game, however, since he went for this repeatedly.  In the last game in my data base, he is defeated in this line in 1979 with Kengis, of all people, in command of the white pieces.

7.a4 is a very big challenge.  The main point is that 7...dxe5 8.a5 e4 9.Ng5 is very good for White.  Black must try either 7...a5 or 8...Nd7!? 9.a6 b6.  Here Bagirov, aped by both Eales and Hort, gives 10.dxe5 Ndxe5 11.Nxe5 Qxd1 12.Bxd1 Nxe5 13.Bxg4 Nxg4 14.Bf4 as favorable for White.  This is utter crap, since Black is a pawn up and perfectly safe after 14...e5.  But White also has 10.h3 and 10.c3.  10.h3 Bxf3 11.Bxf3 Nxd4 12.Bxa8 Qxa8 looks about equal to me.  But 10.c3! is a challenge and I will let others now have their say about it.
« Last Edit: 01/02/10 at 19:51:06 by Markovich »  

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Re: 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 what to play?
Reply #16 - 01/02/10 at 12:24:38
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However I do not play the 5...ed Exchange, and consider the move inferior (at least in terms of dynamism) to 5...cd. Sitting for ages in a symmetrical position is not fun for me.

5.Bb5 is also a bit of a pest in the 4...Nc6 variation, though I do not mind the resulting positions as black, as they are at least open and unbalanced.
  

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Re: 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 what to play?
Reply #15 - 01/02/10 at 02:26:56
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I thought 4... Nc6!? 5. ed ed wasn't supposed to be that big of a deal if you play the 5... exd6 exchange as after 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. c4 Nb6 5. ed ed 6. Nc3, black's most accurate move is 6... Nc6! as played by Baburin to prevent the Nc3, Bd3, Nge2 setup.
  
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Re: 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 what to play?
Reply #14 - 01/02/10 at 00:16:46
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For what it's worth, I do not feel 4...Nc6 to be any worse than any other option, I feel black's position is fully sound and white may be able to get a small edge, but he probably can in any of the main lines of the Alekhine. Nothing has ever put me off playing the position, other than the transposition to the exchange.

I am becoming more and more interested in the move 4...Nb6 - it may be risky and provocative but I like it's spirit, and this is where I am currently devoting my attentions. Again I'm not sure it is more risky than any other move, and it is lesser-known - I'd definitely give it my Patzer seal of approval.
  

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