LeeRoth wrote on 01/27/10 at 05:35:22:


Checking with an engine it turns out Black is lost in the above diagram:

• 23. ... b4 24. gxf4 engine evaluation: +8.52 at depth 21.
• 23. ... Nxa1 24. gxf4 engine evaluation: +3.59 at depth 21.
• 23. ... Nd3 24. Nd5 engine evaluation: +3.83 at depth 21.

Yes it is known this.

From what I remember from a yearbook survey a couple of years back (unsure quite which issue without checking) you've described it fairly accurately   Practically rather dangerous, with white having several valid options and not really risking being worse, but objectively probably OK for black. 

As I remember black tends to give an exchange back or something.

BTW, I don't play this line either; but have been following it on this site.  The coverage here has been great.  Tony and Richard have annotated many of the key games in depth.

So, here's what I know or at least what I think I know.  After 12..Bf8 13.Qd2 Rb8 14.Qf2, Black pretty much plays 14..e5.  Carlsen tried 15.fxe5 dxe5 (15..Nxe5!?) 16.Nb3 when 16..Be6 has emerged as Black's best.  Giri mentioned this in his annotations and Loek Van Wely played it twice in the Amsterdam NH Hotel tournament.  All respect to Carlsen and those who have followed his lead, but 15.fxe5 doesn't look too scary these days or at least not as scary as the alternative.   

The alternative is 15.Nde2 when 15..exf4 was supposed to lead to +/= or = depending on which commentator you believe.  Then, along came Rublevsky, who, in his 2007 Candidates Match with Gruschuk, tried 15..b5.  Their game petered out to an early draw after 18.Ng3, so not really a test.   

Jakovenko must have liked White, though, because he played it next against Rublevsky.  That game continued 18..Nxc2 19.Bg5 Nxa1 20.Bxf6 Qc5 21.Qd2 Nb3 22.Qg5 h6 23.Qg4 g6 24.Nd5 Nd4 25.Bg5! when White was better.  Richard, however, indicates that Black could have improved with 24..Nd2, so perhaps all is not lost?   

Rublevsky must believe in Black's position because he continues to play this line.  Maybe he just figures that he knows it better than his opponent, and the positions are so sharp and complicated that he's likely to come out on top.  Or maybe he's just a masochist who likes to defend tough positions.      

In any event, I don't find any further games with 18.Ng3.  A bit puzzling, maybe there is a big unplayed improvement for Black that has put people off, but I suspect that attention shifted to 18.Bg5, since Black initially tried 18..Be7 and didn't fare well.   

As you note, the two highest rated to have played this line opted for Qb6 and Qc5.  On 19.Ng3 Qxf2 Black looked OK to me in the game you mentioned.   

More interesting might be 19.Qh4 Be7 20.Ng3 Nxc2 21.Nh5 Nxh5 22.Bxe7 Nf4 23.g3 as in Predojevic-Rublevsky, Serbia 2009.  Here, Rublevsky played 23..f6, when White responded 24.Bxf6, but simply 24.gxf4 Re7 25.Nd5 might have kept an edge.  So maybe Black should consider 23..Nxa1, 23..b4 or 23..Nd3?  Time, I suspect, will tell.

Cheers. 

Sorry for not answering sooner. Been too busy to have time to give a constructive reply to this discussion. 



In the following position that arises after 15.Nde2 b5 16.axb5 axb5 17.f5 Nb4 18.Bg5 black seeks to exchange queens with 18...Qc5 or 18...Qb6

18...Qc5 19.Bxf6 Qxf2 20.Rxf2 gxf6 21.Ng3



White looks preferable but blacks position looks tough to break in any case. I cannot see just by looking at the position how white breaks through. Also it could be more accurate to avoid exchanging qeens (Qxf2) immediately. As no black players shy this position there must have been an important game.

In Chao-Hao 2009 white allowed this 19.Ng3 Qxf2 20.Nd7

18...Nxc2 19.Rac1 b4 is also very unclear.

Once again, my knowledge runs short in these variations. I think first of all we have to come to some common ground where we both know as much (or as little).

I am very interested in this too although to tell you frankly I have exactly zero experience in these variations as I have played the c3 sicilian before.

First of all, what is the current state of 14.Rad1.

We could take a look at the novelty that Carlsen played in his game against Grischuck in Linares 2009, 15.fxe5.

GM Anish Giri analysed the game for chessbase: 19...Bg4! A very strong move, which probably keeps equality. 20.Bxg4 (20.Bc5 Qc7 21.Bxf8 Kxf8! and black is fine.) 20...Nxg4 21.Qe2 (21.Qg3 Nf6 22.Bc5 Qe6 23.Bxf8 Kxf8! and Black has no problems.) 21...Nf6 22.a5 with an unclear game, but in my opinion Black is not worse.

Perhaps 21...Nf6 22.Bc5 would be a good idea to analyse in detail.

Here is the link http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=5267

Thank you, I was mistaken, I thought it was Carlsen who had forgotten his theory. Somehow I find it remarkable that someone like Anand forgets what to play at this early stage of the opening, although I suppose we are all humans in the end.

Btw, what happened to this thread? The discussion seemed to have stopped since I looked last.

LeeRoth wrote on 01/04/10 at 01:44:08:


After 13...Na5 14.b3 is white's general idea to Bf2-g3 and play for e5 now that the knight is on the dim? I suppose this is what you mean by risky and it that case I agree with you.

After 13...Rb8 Carlsen played 14.g4 against Anand in 2008 and lost. I am curious if someone remembers his comments on this move after the game. Was he so fustrated with blacks other alternatives and wanted to win so badly? 

In 2009 he had learnt his lesson and must have prepared part of the game against Grischuck which went: 

14.Qf2 e5 15.fxe5 dxe5 16.Nb3 Nb4 17.Ba7 Rb8 18.Bb6 Qe7 19.Rad1 Be6 20.Nd5 Bxd5 21.exd5 e4 22.d6 Qe6 23.Nc5 Qf5 24.Be2 Qxf2 25.Rxf2 

Reached a queenless middlegame which he won very nicely. Again I wish I had paid more attention to this game when it was played. Does anyone remember what comments were made after the game regarding Carlsens preparation?

F22, assume you mean this one.  Was Black ever in any real danger here -- seems like it was pretty level throughout?  I notice that in games in this line, perpetual against the exposed White King is one of Black's regular defensive techniques.  

[Event "World Computer Chess Championship"]
[Site "Ramat-Gan"]
[Date "2004.07.08"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Fritz (Computer)"]
[Black "Shredder (Computer)"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B85"]
[PlyCount "88"]
[EventDate "2004.??.??"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Be2 e6 7. O-O Be7 8. f4
O-O 9. Kh1 Nc6 10. Be3 Qc7 11. a4 Re8 12. Bf3 Bf8 13. g4 Nxd4 14. Bxd4 e5 15.
Bg1 exf4 16. g5 Nd7 17. Nd5 Qd8 18. Bg2 Ne5 19. Rxf4 Be6 20. Ra3 Rc8 21. Bb6
Qxg5 22. Rg3 Qh6 23. Be3 Bxd5 24. exd5 Nc4 25. Rxc4 Rxe3 26. Rxg7+ Kxg7 27.
Rxc8 Qh4 28. Qg1 Re1 29. Bf1+ Kh6 30. Qg2 Qf4 31. Qh3+ Kg6 32. Qg2+ Kf6 33. Kg1
Ke7 34. Rc7+ Kd8 35. Rxb7 Bg7 36. c3 Bd4+ 37. cxd4 Qxd4+ 38. Kh1 Rxf1+ 39. Qxf1
Qxd5+ 40. Qg2 Qd1+ 41. Qg1 Qf3+ 42. Qg2 Qd1+ 43. Qg1 Qd5+ 44. Qg2 Qd1+ 1/2-1/2