ChessPub Forum - Main Lines of the Spanish

Matemax God Member Offline Chesspub gives you strength! Posts: 1302 Joined: 11/04/07	Re: Main Lines of the Spanish Reply #12 - 01/05/10 at 11:26:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: Noone ever knows how to play Bishops/Vienna properly as black. Cos they spend all their time remembering 20 moves of Chig/Zaitsev/Marshall/Arkh, but on their own after move 6/7 there. Playing 1...e5 demands a lot of knowledge - starting from the Danish over the Kings Gambit to Bishops Opening, Vienna, Scotch and finally the Ruy. I know that all 1.e4 openings demand respect and try to work out lines that are a good answer - and you easily find suggestions in "MCO" or "NCO" or on the lovely 1.e4e5 Chesspublishing site. Thats an advantage for Black who can follow well known paths to equality (and then I accept that the better player will win - and if White is stronger then it's the way it is). If White comes up with the Ruy things get more complicated - you cant learn all the variations by heart and you are not sure where equalitiy really is. And some point I feel you are left with your intution and positional understanding and your opponent will mostly feel the same (OK not if he is Leko). And at this very point I feel within the chess flow and simply enjoy making moves and seeing what happens. Of course the Bishop Opening or the 4-Knights also may produce "look alike" Ruy positions - so Ruy Lopez Mainline studying is double worth its effort. If you want to learn chess play the Open Games (Markovich - and I fully agree) - but dont exclude the wonderful labyrinth of the Ruy Lopez. Since I started playing it with White as my mainline (before I also tried the Ponz, Scotch) I really feel I have improved (well my OTB rating does not reflect that fully (only slightly improving) - but that may also be a problem of too less games (around 15 a year)) and that's what it's all about for an amateur: self-improvement (I hope this word exists in English ). What other goal could you have? You will never join the elite or even win a bigger tournament, but you notice that your known opponents seem to play weaker (Van Wely called this the proof that you improve!).


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Schaakhamster God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 650 Joined: 05/13/08	Re: Main Lines of the Spanish Reply #11 - 01/05/10 at 10:35:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	Bibs wrote on 01/05/10 at 10:29:45: Schaakhamster wrote on 01/05/10 at 10:04:29: I won't dispute the educational value of the mainline Ruy Lopez but basicly Bibs is right. At my level (1700 elo) I see a lot of 2 knights, Italian with d3, king's gambits, some Vienna, some Scots, 4 knights... . If you get the Ruy Lopez, after a6 you'll get a lot exchange variations, a few Woralls and occasionally a proper closed Ruy Lopez where afterwards you have the impression that neither you nor your opponent had a clue... . As white: same thing there: if your opponent plays the open games he'll have some perfectly healthy sideline ready for you. Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear. I play that as white, not black. Noone ever knows how to play Bishops/Vienna properly as black. Cos they spend all their time remembering 20 moves of Chig/Zaitsev/Marshall/Arkh, but on their own after move 6/7 there. No piggybacking off the greats, just duffers on their own. Who go quickly astray. Same reason I would never play down mainline Dragon as white. For decent players, unlike me, with the same approach, see Tiviakov, I Rogers. Pragmatists. Okay, my bad... .


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Bibs God Member Offline Posts: 2338 Joined: 10/24/06	Re: Main Lines of the Spanish Reply #10 - 01/05/10 at 10:29:45	Post Tools	Print Post
	Schaakhamster wrote on 01/05/10 at 10:04:29: I won't dispute the educational value of the mainline Ruy Lopez but basicly Bibs is right. At my level (1700 elo) I see a lot of 2 knights, Italian with d3, king's gambits, some Vienna, some Scots, 4 knights... . If you get the Ruy Lopez, after a6 you'll get a lot exchange variations, a few Woralls and occasionally a proper closed Ruy Lopez where afterwards you have the impression that neither you nor your opponent had a clue... . As white: same thing there: if your opponent plays the open games he'll have some perfectly healthy sideline ready for you. Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear. I play that as white, not black. Noone ever knows how to play Bishops/Vienna properly as black. Cos they spend all their time remembering 20 moves of Chig/Zaitsev/Marshall/Arkh, but on their own after move 6/7 there. No piggybacking off the greats, just duffers on their own. Who go quickly astray. Same reason I would never play down mainline Dragon as white. For decent players, unlike me, with the same approach, see Tiviakov, I Rogers. Pragmatists.


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Schaakhamster God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 650 Joined: 05/13/08	Re: Main Lines of the Spanish Reply #9 - 01/05/10 at 10:04:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	I won't dispute the educational value of the mainline Ruy Lopez but basicly Bibs is right. At my level (1700 elo) I see a lot of 2 knights, Italian with d3, king's gambits, some Vienna, some Scots, 4 knights... . If you get the Ruy Lopez, after a6 you'll get a lot exchange variations, a few Woralls and occasionally a proper closed Ruy Lopez where afterwards you have the impression that neither you nor your opponent had a clue... . As white: same thing there: if your opponent plays the open games he'll have some perfectly healthy sideline ready for you.


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Matemax God Member Offline Chesspub gives you strength! Posts: 1302 Joined: 11/04/07	Re: Main Lines of the Spanish Reply #8 - 01/05/10 at 07:00:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: And of course many players of the white side fear the Marshall Gambit. There has been some debate on this one in the past. It is my general impression that there is some consensus on it that Black can prove equality. Most opening lines lead to positions with chances for both sides. Personally I don't like the Marshall Gambit because if White really knows what he is doing Black ends up in a pawn down ending with compensation due to his bishop pair. White also has some 8th move possibilities to avoid it alltogether and try to get back to positional waters - there was a recent Svidler game in Khansynsk I think where he showed how to play this "anti-Marschall" in a splendid way (if I am not wrong). Quote: For me - no time as an occasional amateur player (22-2300ish). For me only Ruy Worrall, Glek, Bishops/Vienna depending. That does me chopping up anyone below 2200. If you have the time (child, unemployed, retired, unmarried, self-employed, chess pro) go for it. Sure will be interesting, but I question the dividends versus time invested. The real question is personal improvement - thats why I still play chess after all those years: full time job, 3 kids, occassional amateur just the way you are (+ I started corr. chess 2,5 years ago to practise theoretical lines). But working on the Ruy gives me a feeling that I learn something and get a deeper understanding of chess - and if only for 15 minutes a day


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Bibs God Member Offline Posts: 2338 Joined: 10/24/06	Re: Main Lines of the Spanish Reply #7 - 01/05/10 at 03:04:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	For me - no time as an occasional amateur player (22-2300ish). For me only Ruy Worrall, Glek, Bishops/Vienna depending. That does me chopping up anyone below 2200. If you have the time (child, unemployed, retired, unmarried, self-employed, chess pro) go for it. Sure will be interesting, but I question the dividends versus time invested.


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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10756 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Main Lines of the Spanish Reply #6 - 01/05/10 at 01:48:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	And of course many players of the white side fear the Marshall Gambit. There has been some debate on this one in the past. It is my general impression that there is some consensus on it that Black can prove equality.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Matemax

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Re: Main Lines of the Spanish
Reply #5 - 01/04/10 at 18:53:05

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In "The Ruy Lopez: A Guide for Black" the authors write about the position after the 9th move from White:

"Starting at move 9, the Closed Ruy Lopez is a dense forest of related and frequently transposing lines, mostly tested extensively at top GM level. This has to be reflected in any theoretical work - and the result will often look intimitading, with lines only starting to branch out around move 20."

What does this mean to this Forum?

1) Understanding and analysing the Closed Ruy Lopez is hard work - there is no "tic tac toe" chess, well thought evaluations are needed

2) Modern times tell people to look for simple solutions - make deviations and try to get the most of it (which means they play the Exchange or the Worrall with White or take an aggressive system (like the Open Ruy Lopez or the Arkhangelsk) as Black to escape.

3) Anyone working on the Closed Ruy Lopez has to invest a lot of time to find subtelities - just think that the Main Line Chigorin is mostly about an offside black knight (temporal advantage for White)

For myself I play the "Zaitsev" (9...Bb7) and the "Chigorin" (9...Na5) with Black at the moment, but as my white repertoire is also based on the Ruy I need to work on all lines. Consequently one can play this opening with both colours based on better understanding than the oppopent (or not of course - some painful losses have shown me).

The position after 9.h3 is complex and deep - one cannot learn every line by heart - a good mixture of understanding and knowing is the way to success (this is what Shirov tells on one of his DVDs about the Ruy Lopez).

So I really wonder how many serious Forum members are really willing to invest their time into the Ruy?

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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Main Lines of the Spanish Reply #4 - 01/04/10 at 18:47:30	Post Tools	Print Post
	MartinC wrote on 01/04/10 at 18:39:21: No idea in general. For a while I did avoid it (with the Vienna) due to range of replies to it, but then realised that that was lame. I've since been playing the Lopez without very much theoretical backup and doing very nicely overall really. iirc I've since not seen a single main line open, and only one thing approaching a main line closed (where black got his set up rather confused). I don't think thats just down to luck - they somehow seem genuinely rare in the North of the UK. I can hardly remember seeing any in congresses/matches and stuff that I've been too. I suppose this is likely to require active cooperation from both white and black players. A little bit odd/sad I suppose. So how do your opponents choose to defend 3.Bb5?

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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MartinC God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 2073 Joined: 07/24/06	Re: Main Lines of the Spanish Reply #3 - 01/04/10 at 18:39:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	No idea in general. For a while I did avoid it (with the Vienna) due to range of replies to it, but then realised that that was lame. I've since been playing the Lopez without very much theoretical backup and doing very nicely overall really. iirc I've since not seen a single main line open, and only one thing approaching a main line closed (where black got his set up rather confused). I don't think thats just down to luck - they somehow seem genuinely rare in the North of the UK. I can hardly remember seeing any in congresses/matches and stuff that I've been too. I suppose this is likely to require active cooperation from both white and black players. A little bit odd/sad I suppose.


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Daniel Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 169 Joined: 05/29/06 Gender:	Re: Main Lines of the Spanish Reply #2 - 01/04/10 at 18:20:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	I've played e5 for about 2 years against mainly 1800-2400 opposition and have gotten to play only 3 Open Ruy Lopez and only one mainline closed. In fact, the closed was against an expert who followed theory for a while in the Chigorin and made me suffer.


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baeron Junior Member Offline Chessaholic Posts: 65 Joined: 08/20/09	Re: Main Lines of the Spanish Reply #1 - 01/04/10 at 14:50:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	Interesting question. I think it just reflects the reality for most players under master strength where sidelines are not the exceptions but the rule. Thus it makes sense to put some effort into them, also because in some of these lines there aren't an abundance of master games, so there's less "authoritative" opinios and more freedom (and need!) to explore. There's another reason I believe and that's the insight that almost any opening can be played without much more risk than established main lines. Books like the SOS series or Watsons SoMCS are having quite a lot of impact in this respect. Therefore it's nowadays quite fruitful to depend on lesser known concepts, even if they're not objectively best. Far more people are interested in winning than the "truth". (Btw, there's one little anectote I would like to share. While preparing for the last round in a tournament I notives that my opponent did not know much theory at all and always opened 1.d4 I prepared all sidelines of the Dutch. Needless to say, what I got was the Qe8-mainline of the Leningrad, for the first time in around 7 years! He "found" all the moves over the board.)


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Main Lines of the Spanish 01/04/10 at 14:02:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	It says something about this board that these don't get discussed here very much. The board fills up with threads about the Latvian, Ponziani, the Schliemann, and all sorts of other minor systems, but very rarely the critical variations that determine the viability of 1...e5. In the Open, discussions here rarely progress beyond the 9th move. And discussions of the Closed are quite infrequent. Are there really so few Whites that employ the indisputably best system after 1...e5? Or is it only that they are so well booked up that they have no questions about it? Or perhaps it is that only strong players play the Spanish, and strong players prefer to share nothing here? There's a similar effect in the other sections of this forum (except maybe the Dragon), but it seems much more pronounced here.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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