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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Discussion of 1. f4 approaches (Read 31647 times)
MNb
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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #33 - 03/05/10 at 21:17:54
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BirdBrain wrote on 03/05/10 at 13:34:40:
A lot of the early Bird players used the bishop on b2.  It helps with the fight of e5, but even more, it helps penetrate into g7 and h8. 
One theme of the Bird is the kingside pawn pushes, and this bishop helps support an attack on the enemy king.


As usual you perfectly know how to advertise the pluspoints of the Bird and forget about the downsided. The bishop on b2 does not protect square e3 anymore. As a consequence it is much harder to force e3-e4. That means that White lacks centre control and we all ought to know what happens to a player who pushes his kingside pawns too much while the opponent has play in the centre ....
  

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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #32 - 03/05/10 at 14:46:03
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linksspringer wrote on 03/05/10 at 11:16:48:
Quote:
linksspringer wrote on 01/21/10 at 11:22:45:
1.f4 d5 2.b3 c5 3.Bb2 d4 and now 4.e3 dxe3 5.Nf3! is a very promising gambit.


The gambit should be fine but 4...dxe3 has no logic. Better is 4...a6 when we get an English Defense with colours reversed (1.d4 e6 2.c4 b6 3.a3 Bb7 4.d5 f5!?).  The additional tempo should give White an equal game but not more than that.

As Black the sharpest try after 1.d4 e6 2.c4 b6 3.a3 Bb7 4.d5 f5!? 5.g3 is Bunzmann's 5...Be7?! with the idea to shoot the Nc3 with Bf6Xc3 and then attack d5. I just tried to make this work with colours reversed but it's equal at best: 1.f4 d5 2.b3 c5 3.Bb2 d4 4.e3 a6 5.Be2 Nc6 6.Bf3 Bd7 7.Ne2 (7.exd4 cxd4 8.Ne2 d3!) 7...g6! and Black seems to hold his strong point d4, since 8.exd4 Bg7 9.c3 cxd4 10.exd4 is not attractive for White.


Interesting! The logic of 4...dxe3 is that if 5.dxe3 were forced then Black would have an easy game, but as you agree the gambit is fine. I agree that 4...a6!? with an English Defence colours reversed looks best. I'm still trying to figure out if White can play for an advantage by following the English Defence main line. What would you recommend for Black after 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.Bd3? For example 6...Nf6 7.Na3 b5 (or g6) or the ambitious 6...g6 7.Na3 Bg7 8.Nc4 Nh6?


With the white Bishop already on d3 Black should play 6...Nf6 to prevent a later Be4 IMO and then continue with 7...g6. As White I would first play 6.Na3 and 7.Nc4 and then depending on Black's moves choose between Bd3 (Black already played Nh6) and the double fianchetto g3 and Bg2. It might also be a good idea to spend the extra tempo on a4 at move 8. This (a5) proved too slow as Black in the English Defence, but it's certainly a positionally desireable move.

The reason I played 6.Bd3 was to avoid a queen trade after fxe3, which is nonsense since the queen trade favours White after eg 6.Na3 dxe3 7.dxe3.
I like 6.Na3 and 7.Nc4 keeping options for the bishop, thanks!
Still, even after something like 6.Bd3 Nf6 7.Na3 g6 8.Nc4 Bg7 9.Nce5 I think White's position is not unpleasant. This could be compared to 1.d4 e6 2.c4 b6 3.a3 Bb7 4.d5 f5 5.Nc3 Nf6 6.g3 Na6 7.Bg2 Nc5 8.Nf3?! Nce4 when White has problems with the centre according to Odessky.
  
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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #31 - 03/05/10 at 14:11:56
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linksspringer wrote on 03/05/10 at 11:16:48:
Quote:
linksspringer wrote on 01/21/10 at 11:22:45:
1.f4 d5 2.b3 c5 3.Bb2 d4 and now 4.e3 dxe3 5.Nf3! is a very promising gambit.


The gambit should be fine but 4...dxe3 has no logic. Better is 4...a6 when we get an English Defense with colours reversed (1.d4 e6 2.c4 b6 3.a3 Bb7 4.d5 f5!?).  The additional tempo should give White an equal game but not more than that.

As Black the sharpest try after 1.d4 e6 2.c4 b6 3.a3 Bb7 4.d5 f5!? 5.g3 is Bunzmann's 5...Be7?! with the idea to shoot the Nc3 with Bf6Xc3 and then attack d5. I just tried to make this work with colours reversed but it's equal at best: 1.f4 d5 2.b3 c5 3.Bb2 d4 4.e3 a6 5.Be2 Nc6 6.Bf3 Bd7 7.Ne2 (7.exd4 cxd4 8.Ne2 d3!) 7...g6! and Black seems to hold his strong point d4, since 8.exd4 Bg7 9.c3 cxd4 10.exd4 is not attractive for White.


Interesting! The logic of 4...dxe3 is that if 5.dxe3 were forced then Black would have an easy game, but as you agree the gambit is fine. I agree that 4...a6!? with an English Defence colours reversed looks best. I'm still trying to figure out if White can play for an advantage by following the English Defence main line. What would you recommend for Black after 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.Bd3? For example 6...Nf6 7.Na3 b5 (or g6) or the ambitious 6...g6 7.Na3 Bg7 8.Nc4 Nh6?


With the white Bishop already on d3 Black should play 6...Nf6 to prevent a later Be4 IMO and then continue with 7...g6. As White I would first play 6.Na3 and 7.Nc4 and then depending on Black's moves choose between Bd3 (Black already played Nh6) and the double fianchetto g3 and Bg2. It might also be a good idea to spend the extra tempo on a4 at move 8. This (a5) proved too slow as Black in the English Defence, but it's certainly a positionally desireable move.

  
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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #30 - 03/05/10 at 13:34:40
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I listened to what Taylor said for a long time about b3. To make a long story short, he gives it a thumbs down.  What else could I do, an innocent player beginning to learn 1. f4, but to dismiss it?  So I began to work on his suggestion, the Classical Defense reversed.  But I found that the positions were, well...not as aggressive as I really liked.  I kept pushing, pushing, but the bishop at c1 nagged at me a lot. 
A lot of the early Bird players used the bishop on b2.  It helps with the fight of e5, but even more, it helps penetrate into g7 and h8. 
One theme of the Bird is the kingside pawn pushes, and this bishop helps support an attack on the enemy king.
I recently had a friend who played me correspondence chess, and I played 1. f4 / 2. b3.  He played an early ...d5-d4, saying he believed this was a good reason to deter him from exploring 2. b3 in the Bird.  I told him that I felt the early pawn push played into my hands, since Black is spending a tempo on a push when he could be developing his pieces.  Later, I redeployed my  bishop back to c1, when the timing was right. 
My advice - try it out.  Many of the original Bird players played b3 and Bb2...and Soltis wrote a book on it that is pretty nice.
  
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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #29 - 03/05/10 at 12:08:39
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Congratulations!
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #28 - 03/05/10 at 11:35:15
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thibdb13 wrote on 01/21/10 at 07:41:22:
Taylor gives a good explanation why b3 is not really good in the Bird. There are some cases when it is playable but, then, you need some help from black.
I have tried it several times against weaker opponents and, however I won all those games, I was each time disappointed by the fact that even "very weak" players (1500-1600) can easily find their way against this move. It was still the same: I went a little worse out of the opening and the only reason I could win was that my opponents were really weaker.


I actually beat a little higher rated (1890) opponent with a b3-bird and it was my first slow game with 1.f4.

1. f4 Nf6 2. Nf3 e6 3. e3 b6 4. b3 Bb7 5. Bb2 Bb4 6. a3 Be7 7. c4 O-O 8. Nc3 d6 9. Qc2 Nbd7 10. f5 Nc5 11. fxe6 fxe6 12. b4 Nce4 13. Bd3 Nxc3 14. Bxc3 Bxf3 15. gxf3 e5 16. Rg1 Qe8 17. Rg3 c5 18. Ke2 Qh5 19. Rag1 Rf7 20. Bf5 e4 21. Bxe4 Nxe4 22. Qxe4 Rd8 23. Rxg7+ Rxg7 24. Rxg7+ Kf8 25. Qxe7# 1-0

Black was somewhat passive in the beginning, but I think I would've been ok even if he had played d5 and c5. Of course, there were some mistakes by black but my point is that the opening worked here.  Smiley I don't know what Taylor says.
  
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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #27 - 03/05/10 at 11:16:48
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linksspringer wrote on 01/21/10 at 11:22:45:
1.f4 d5 2.b3 c5 3.Bb2 d4 and now 4.e3 dxe3 5.Nf3! is a very promising gambit.


The gambit should be fine but 4...dxe3 has no logic. Better is 4...a6 when we get an English Defense with colours reversed (1.d4 e6 2.c4 b6 3.a3 Bb7 4.d5 f5!?).  The additional tempo should give White an equal game but not more than that.

As Black the sharpest try after 1.d4 e6 2.c4 b6 3.a3 Bb7 4.d5 f5!? 5.g3 is Bunzmann's 5...Be7?! with the idea to shoot the Nc3 with Bf6Xc3 and then attack d5. I just tried to make this work with colours reversed but it's equal at best: 1.f4 d5 2.b3 c5 3.Bb2 d4 4.e3 a6 5.Be2 Nc6 6.Bf3 Bd7 7.Ne2 (7.exd4 cxd4 8.Ne2 d3!) 7...g6! and Black seems to hold his strong point d4, since 8.exd4 Bg7 9.c3 cxd4 10.exd4 is not attractive for White.


Interesting! The logic of 4...dxe3 is that if 5.dxe3 were forced then Black would have an easy game, but as you agree the gambit is fine. I agree that 4...a6!? with an English Defence colours reversed looks best. I'm still trying to figure out if White can play for an advantage by following the English Defence main line. What would you recommend for Black after 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.Bd3? For example 6...Nf6 7.Na3 b5 (or g6) or the ambitious 6...g6 7.Na3 Bg7 8.Nc4 Nh6?
  
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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #26 - 03/05/10 at 10:07:30
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nyoke wrote on 03/04/10 at 08:41:48:
MNB, any further developments in this interesting line ?


5 games 1.e4 and one 1.b4 in the ICCF Champions League, so the answer is no.
  

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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #25 - 03/05/10 at 09:52:04
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linksspringer wrote on 01/21/10 at 11:22:45:
1.f4 d5 2.b3 c5 3.Bb2 d4 and now 4.e3 dxe3 5.Nf3! is a very promising gambit.


The gambit should be fine but 4...dxe3 has no logic. Better is 4...a6 when we get an English Defense with colours reversed (1.d4 e6 2.c4 b6 3.a3 Bb7 4.d5 f5!?).  The additional tempo should give White an equal game but not more than that.

As Black the sharpest try after 1.d4 e6 2.c4 b6 3.a3 Bb7 4.d5 f5!? 5.g3 is Bunzmann's 5...Be7?! with the idea to shoot the Nc3 with Bf6Xc3 and then attack d5. I just tried to make this work with colours reversed but it's equal at best: 1.f4 d5 2.b3 c5 3.Bb2 d4 4.e3 a6 5.Be2 Nc6 6.Bf3 Bd7 7.Ne2 (7.exd4 cxd4 8.Ne2 d3!) 7...g6! and Black seems to hold his strong point d4, since 8.exd4 Bg7 9.c3 cxd4 10.exd4 is not attractive for White.
  
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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #24 - 03/04/10 at 08:41:48
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MNB, any further developments in this interesting line ?
  
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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #23 - 02/13/10 at 13:20:33
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Thanks!  I can only imagine that Kamsky was trying to unbalance the position and avoid his opponent's preparation.
  

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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #22 - 02/12/10 at 23:28:21
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Kamsky-Sjugirov
9th Aeroflot Open A
Moscow RUS (1), 09.02.2010
1.g3 d5 2.Bg2 Nf6 3.f4 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.0–0 0–0 6.d3 c5 7.Qe1 d4 8.Na3 Nc6 9.Bd2 Nd5 10.c3 e5 11.Nxe5 Nxe5 12.fxe5 Bxe5 13.Nc2 Be6 14.c4 Ne7 15.b4 cxb4 16.Nxb4 Qd7 17.Bf4 Bg7 18.Rf2 h6 19.Rb1 Rac8 20.a4 Rfe8 21.a5 Rc5 22.Qc1 g5 23.Bd2 Rxa5 24.Bxb7 Re5 25.Bh1 Bg4 26.c5 a5 27.Na6 Nd5 28.c6 Qd6 29.Bxd5 Rxd5 30.Rb7 Be6 31.Nc7 Rc5 32.Qb1 Rf8 33.Nxe6 Qxe6 34.c7 Rc8 35.Rb8 R5xc7 36.Bxa5 ½–½
  

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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #21 - 02/12/10 at 19:00:16
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Not to add fuel to a tired fire, but according to chessbase.com, it would appear as though Gata Kamsky essayed the Bird at the Aeroflot tournament:

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=6123

I don't have the game score, but chessbase reports a draw in 36 moves.
  

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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #20 - 01/22/10 at 11:24:01
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nyoke wrote on 01/22/10 at 10:01:47:
Promising, but you will have to work out something against 2...Bg4. (After 1. f4, d5 2. b3...)


True. I like to play 3.g3 here, compared to 1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 g6, the extra tempo b3 is useful.
Soltis recommends 3.h3, but I don't see the extra b3 as helpful there.
I admit that more often I enter this Bird via 1.b3 d5 2.Bb2 and a later f4. In that case, 2...Bg4 3.f3 is nice.
  
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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #19 - 01/22/10 at 10:01:47
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Promising, but you will have to work out something against 2...Bg4. (After 1. f4, d5 2. b3...)
  
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