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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Discussion of 1. f4 approaches (Read 31650 times)
MNb
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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #33 - 03/05/10 at 21:17:54
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BirdBrain wrote on 03/05/10 at 13:34:40:
A lot of the early Bird players used the bishop on b2.  It helps with the fight of e5, but even more, it helps penetrate into g7 and h8. 
One theme of the Bird is the kingside pawn pushes, and this bishop helps support an attack on the enemy king.


As usual you perfectly know how to advertise the pluspoints of the Bird and forget about the downsided. The bishop on b2 does not protect square e3 anymore. As a consequence it is much harder to force e3-e4. That means that White lacks centre control and we all ought to know what happens to a player who pushes his kingside pawns too much while the opponent has play in the centre ....
  

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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #32 - 03/05/10 at 14:46:03
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Quote:
linksspringer wrote on 03/05/10 at 11:16:48:
Quote:
linksspringer wrote on 01/21/10 at 11:22:45:
1.f4 d5 2.b3 c5 3.Bb2 d4 and now 4.e3 dxe3 5.Nf3! is a very promising gambit.


The gambit should be fine but 4...dxe3 has no logic. Better is 4...a6 when we get an English Defense with colours reversed (1.d4 e6 2.c4 b6 3.a3 Bb7 4.d5 f5!?).  The additional tempo should give White an equal game but not more than that.

As Black the sharpest try after 1.d4 e6 2.c4 b6 3.a3 Bb7 4.d5 f5!? 5.g3 is Bunzmann's 5...Be7?! with the idea to shoot the Nc3 with Bf6Xc3 and then attack d5. I just tried to make this work with colours reversed but it's equal at best: 1.f4 d5 2.b3 c5 3.Bb2 d4 4.e3 a6 5.Be2 Nc6 6.Bf3 Bd7 7.Ne2 (7.exd4 cxd4 8.Ne2 d3!) 7...g6! and Black seems to hold his strong point d4, since 8.exd4 Bg7 9.c3 cxd4 10.exd4 is not attractive for White.


Interesting! The logic of 4...dxe3 is that if 5.dxe3 were forced then Black would have an easy game, but as you agree the gambit is fine. I agree that 4...a6!? with an English Defence colours reversed looks best. I'm still trying to figure out if White can play for an advantage by following the English Defence main line. What would you recommend for Black after 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.Bd3? For example 6...Nf6 7.Na3 b5 (or g6) or the ambitious 6...g6 7.Na3 Bg7 8.Nc4 Nh6?


With the white Bishop already on d3 Black should play 6...Nf6 to prevent a later Be4 IMO and then continue with 7...g6. As White I would first play 6.Na3 and 7.Nc4 and then depending on Black's moves choose between Bd3 (Black already played Nh6) and the double fianchetto g3 and Bg2. It might also be a good idea to spend the extra tempo on a4 at move 8. This (a5) proved too slow as Black in the English Defence, but it's certainly a positionally desireable move.

The reason I played 6.Bd3 was to avoid a queen trade after fxe3, which is nonsense since the queen trade favours White after eg 6.Na3 dxe3 7.dxe3.
I like 6.Na3 and 7.Nc4 keeping options for the bishop, thanks!
Still, even after something like 6.Bd3 Nf6 7.Na3 g6 8.Nc4 Bg7 9.Nce5 I think White's position is not unpleasant. This could be compared to 1.d4 e6 2.c4 b6 3.a3 Bb7 4.d5 f5 5.Nc3 Nf6 6.g3 Na6 7.Bg2 Nc5 8.Nf3?! Nce4 when White has problems with the centre according to Odessky.
  
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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #31 - 03/05/10 at 14:11:56
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linksspringer wrote on 03/05/10 at 11:16:48:
Quote:
linksspringer wrote on 01/21/10 at 11:22:45:
1.f4 d5 2.b3 c5 3.Bb2 d4 and now 4.e3 dxe3 5.Nf3! is a very promising gambit.


The gambit should be fine but 4...dxe3 has no logic. Better is 4...a6 when we get an English Defense with colours reversed (1.d4 e6 2.c4 b6 3.a3 Bb7 4.d5 f5!?).  The additional tempo should give White an equal game but not more than that.

As Black the sharpest try after 1.d4 e6 2.c4 b6 3.a3 Bb7 4.d5 f5!? 5.g3 is Bunzmann's 5...Be7?! with the idea to shoot the Nc3 with Bf6Xc3 and then attack d5. I just tried to make this work with colours reversed but it's equal at best: 1.f4 d5 2.b3 c5 3.Bb2 d4 4.e3 a6 5.Be2 Nc6 6.Bf3 Bd7 7.Ne2 (7.exd4 cxd4 8.Ne2 d3!) 7...g6! and Black seems to hold his strong point d4, since 8.exd4 Bg7 9.c3 cxd4 10.exd4 is not attractive for White.


Interesting! The logic of 4...dxe3 is that if 5.dxe3 were forced then Black would have an easy game, but as you agree the gambit is fine. I agree that 4...a6!? with an English Defence colours reversed looks best. I'm still trying to figure out if White can play for an advantage by following the English Defence main line. What would you recommend for Black after 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.Bd3? For example 6...Nf6 7.Na3 b5 (or g6) or the ambitious 6...g6 7.Na3 Bg7 8.Nc4 Nh6?


With the white Bishop already on d3 Black should play 6...Nf6 to prevent a later Be4 IMO and then continue with 7...g6. As White I would first play 6.Na3 and 7.Nc4 and then depending on Black's moves choose between Bd3 (Black already played Nh6) and the double fianchetto g3 and Bg2. It might also be a good idea to spend the extra tempo on a4 at move 8. This (a5) proved too slow as Black in the English Defence, but it's certainly a positionally desireable move.

  
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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #30 - 03/05/10 at 13:34:40
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I listened to what Taylor said for a long time about b3. To make a long story short, he gives it a thumbs down.  What else could I do, an innocent player beginning to learn 1. f4, but to dismiss it?  So I began to work on his suggestion, the Classical Defense reversed.  But I found that the positions were, well...not as aggressive as I really liked.  I kept pushing, pushing, but the bishop at c1 nagged at me a lot. 
A lot of the early Bird players used the bishop on b2.  It helps with the fight of e5, but even more, it helps penetrate into g7 and h8. 
One theme of the Bird is the kingside pawn pushes, and this bishop helps support an attack on the enemy king.
I recently had a friend who played me correspondence chess, and I played 1. f4 / 2. b3.  He played an early ...d5-d4, saying he believed this was a good reason to deter him from exploring 2. b3 in the Bird.  I told him that I felt the early pawn push played into my hands, since Black is spending a tempo on a push when he could be developing his pieces.  Later, I redeployed my  bishop back to c1, when the timing was right. 
My advice - try it out.  Many of the original Bird players played b3 and Bb2...and Soltis wrote a book on it that is pretty nice.
  
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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #29 - 03/05/10 at 12:08:39
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Congratulations!
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #28 - 03/05/10 at 11:35:15
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thibdb13 wrote on 01/21/10 at 07:41:22:
Taylor gives a good explanation why b3 is not really good in the Bird. There are some cases when it is playable but, then, you need some help from black.
I have tried it several times against weaker opponents and, however I won all those games, I was each time disappointed by the fact that even "very weak" players (1500-1600) can easily find their way against this move. It was still the same: I went a little worse out of the opening and the only reason I could win was that my opponents were really weaker.


I actually beat a little higher rated (1890) opponent with a b3-bird and it was my first slow game with 1.f4.

1. f4 Nf6 2. Nf3 e6 3. e3 b6 4. b3 Bb7 5. Bb2 Bb4 6. a3 Be7 7. c4 O-O 8. Nc3 d6 9. Qc2 Nbd7 10. f5 Nc5 11. fxe6 fxe6 12. b4 Nce4 13. Bd3 Nxc3 14. Bxc3 Bxf3 15. gxf3 e5 16. Rg1 Qe8 17. Rg3 c5 18. Ke2 Qh5 19. Rag1 Rf7 20. Bf5 e4 21. Bxe4 Nxe4 22. Qxe4 Rd8 23. Rxg7+ Rxg7 24. Rxg7+ Kf8 25. Qxe7# 1-0

Black was somewhat passive in the beginning, but I think I would've been ok even if he had played d5 and c5. Of course, there were some mistakes by black but my point is that the opening worked here.  Smiley I don't know what Taylor says.
  
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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #27 - 03/05/10 at 11:16:48
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linksspringer wrote on 01/21/10 at 11:22:45:
1.f4 d5 2.b3 c5 3.Bb2 d4 and now 4.e3 dxe3 5.Nf3! is a very promising gambit.


The gambit should be fine but 4...dxe3 has no logic. Better is 4...a6 when we get an English Defense with colours reversed (1.d4 e6 2.c4 b6 3.a3 Bb7 4.d5 f5!?).  The additional tempo should give White an equal game but not more than that.

As Black the sharpest try after 1.d4 e6 2.c4 b6 3.a3 Bb7 4.d5 f5!? 5.g3 is Bunzmann's 5...Be7?! with the idea to shoot the Nc3 with Bf6Xc3 and then attack d5. I just tried to make this work with colours reversed but it's equal at best: 1.f4 d5 2.b3 c5 3.Bb2 d4 4.e3 a6 5.Be2 Nc6 6.Bf3 Bd7 7.Ne2 (7.exd4 cxd4 8.Ne2 d3!) 7...g6! and Black seems to hold his strong point d4, since 8.exd4 Bg7 9.c3 cxd4 10.exd4 is not attractive for White.


Interesting! The logic of 4...dxe3 is that if 5.dxe3 were forced then Black would have an easy game, but as you agree the gambit is fine. I agree that 4...a6!? with an English Defence colours reversed looks best. I'm still trying to figure out if White can play for an advantage by following the English Defence main line. What would you recommend for Black after 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.Bd3? For example 6...Nf6 7.Na3 b5 (or g6) or the ambitious 6...g6 7.Na3 Bg7 8.Nc4 Nh6?
  
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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #26 - 03/05/10 at 10:07:30
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nyoke wrote on 03/04/10 at 08:41:48:
MNB, any further developments in this interesting line ?


5 games 1.e4 and one 1.b4 in the ICCF Champions League, so the answer is no.
  

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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #25 - 03/05/10 at 09:52:04
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linksspringer wrote on 01/21/10 at 11:22:45:
1.f4 d5 2.b3 c5 3.Bb2 d4 and now 4.e3 dxe3 5.Nf3! is a very promising gambit.


The gambit should be fine but 4...dxe3 has no logic. Better is 4...a6 when we get an English Defense with colours reversed (1.d4 e6 2.c4 b6 3.a3 Bb7 4.d5 f5!?).  The additional tempo should give White an equal game but not more than that.

As Black the sharpest try after 1.d4 e6 2.c4 b6 3.a3 Bb7 4.d5 f5!? 5.g3 is Bunzmann's 5...Be7?! with the idea to shoot the Nc3 with Bf6Xc3 and then attack d5. I just tried to make this work with colours reversed but it's equal at best: 1.f4 d5 2.b3 c5 3.Bb2 d4 4.e3 a6 5.Be2 Nc6 6.Bf3 Bd7 7.Ne2 (7.exd4 cxd4 8.Ne2 d3!) 7...g6! and Black seems to hold his strong point d4, since 8.exd4 Bg7 9.c3 cxd4 10.exd4 is not attractive for White.
  
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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #24 - 03/04/10 at 08:41:48
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MNB, any further developments in this interesting line ?
  
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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #23 - 02/13/10 at 13:20:33
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Thanks!  I can only imagine that Kamsky was trying to unbalance the position and avoid his opponent's preparation.
  

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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #22 - 02/12/10 at 23:28:21
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Kamsky-Sjugirov
9th Aeroflot Open A
Moscow RUS (1), 09.02.2010
1.g3 d5 2.Bg2 Nf6 3.f4 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.0–0 0–0 6.d3 c5 7.Qe1 d4 8.Na3 Nc6 9.Bd2 Nd5 10.c3 e5 11.Nxe5 Nxe5 12.fxe5 Bxe5 13.Nc2 Be6 14.c4 Ne7 15.b4 cxb4 16.Nxb4 Qd7 17.Bf4 Bg7 18.Rf2 h6 19.Rb1 Rac8 20.a4 Rfe8 21.a5 Rc5 22.Qc1 g5 23.Bd2 Rxa5 24.Bxb7 Re5 25.Bh1 Bg4 26.c5 a5 27.Na6 Nd5 28.c6 Qd6 29.Bxd5 Rxd5 30.Rb7 Be6 31.Nc7 Rc5 32.Qb1 Rf8 33.Nxe6 Qxe6 34.c7 Rc8 35.Rb8 R5xc7 36.Bxa5 ½–½
  

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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #21 - 02/12/10 at 19:00:16
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Not to add fuel to a tired fire, but according to chessbase.com, it would appear as though Gata Kamsky essayed the Bird at the Aeroflot tournament:

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=6123

I don't have the game score, but chessbase reports a draw in 36 moves.
  

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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #20 - 01/22/10 at 11:24:01
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nyoke wrote on 01/22/10 at 10:01:47:
Promising, but you will have to work out something against 2...Bg4. (After 1. f4, d5 2. b3...)


True. I like to play 3.g3 here, compared to 1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 g6, the extra tempo b3 is useful.
Soltis recommends 3.h3, but I don't see the extra b3 as helpful there.
I admit that more often I enter this Bird via 1.b3 d5 2.Bb2 and a later f4. In that case, 2...Bg4 3.f3 is nice.
  
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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #19 - 01/22/10 at 10:01:47
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Promising, but you will have to work out something against 2...Bg4. (After 1. f4, d5 2. b3...)
  
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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #18 - 01/22/10 at 09:48:25
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MNb wrote on 01/22/10 at 03:49:14:
linksspringer wrote on 01/21/10 at 11:22:45:
Are there specific lines that give you trouble in the b3-Bird? I know that Taylor mentions the mainline with d5/Nf6/g6/Bg7/c5, but I play the double fianchetto against that. Let's try to discuss specific lines so that this topic does not deteriorate into another Bird bad/Bird good thread.  Wink


Curiously enough I strongly consider to take this up as Black, via 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 3.g3 b6 4.Bg2 Bb7 5.0-0 Nf6 6.c4 g6. Black does surprisingly well. So it would not surprise me that 1.f4 d5 2.b3 Nf6 3.Bb2 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.g3 c5 6.Bg2 is an interesting try and perhaps even promising.


Exactly! Murey has been using this successfully from a Dutch move order (1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.g3 b6 4.Bg2 Bb7 5.c4 g6), while others like Bauer have used an English Defence move order. I tried to start a discussion a while ago:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1233851470
  
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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #17 - 01/22/10 at 03:49:14
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linksspringer wrote on 01/21/10 at 11:22:45:
Are there specific lines that give you trouble in the b3-Bird? I know that Taylor mentions the mainline with d5/Nf6/g6/Bg7/c5, but I play the double fianchetto against that. Let's try to discuss specific lines so that this topic does not deteriorate into another Bird bad/Bird good thread.  Wink


Curiously enough I strongly consider to take this up as Black, via 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 3.g3 b6 4.Bg2 Bb7 5.0-0 Nf6 6.c4 g6. Black does surprisingly well. So it would not surprise me that 1.f4 d5 2.b3 Nf6 3.Bb2 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.g3 c5 6.Bg2 is an interesting try and perhaps even promising.
  

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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #16 - 01/21/10 at 11:22:45
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TN wrote on 01/21/10 at 06:49:34:
There is already a thread on how to insert diagrams: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1199562081/30#30

Btw, isn't 1.f4 d5 2.b3 c5 (or 2...Nf6 3.Bb2 d4) 3.Bb2 d4 meant to be completely fine for Black?


1.f4 d5 2.b3 c5 3.Bb2 d4 and now 4.e3 dxe3 5.Nf3! is a very promising gambit. Note that this is different from 1.f4 d5 2.b3 Nf6 3.e3?! d4! where the gambit doesn't work so well (Black didn't spend a tempo on ...c5). 1.f4 d5 2.b3 Nf6 3.Bb2 d4 and 4.Nf3 should be OK, 4...c5 5.e3 or 4...Nc6 5.c3.

thibdb13 wrote on 01/21/10 at 07:41:22:
Taylor gives a good explanation why b3 is not really good in the Bird. There are some cases when it is playable but, then, you need some help from black.
I have tried it several times against weaker opponents and, however I won all those games, I was each time disappointed by the fact that even "very weak" players (1500-1600) can easily find their way against this move. It was still the same: I went a little worse out of the opening and the only reason I could win was that my opponents were really weaker.


Are there specific lines that give you trouble in the b3-Bird? I know that Taylor mentions the mainline with d5/Nf6/g6/Bg7/c5, but I play the double fianchetto against that. Let's try to discuss specific lines so that this topic does not deteriorate into another Bird bad/Bird good thread.  Wink
  
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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #15 - 01/21/10 at 07:41:22
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Taylor gives a good explanation why b3 is not really good in the Bird. There are some cases when it is playable but, then, you need some help from black.
I have tried it several times against weaker opponents and, however I won all those games, I was each time disappointed by the fact that even "very weak" players (1500-1600) can easily find their way against this move. It was still the same: I went a little worse out of the opening and the only reason I could win was that my opponents were really weaker.
If you want to play a Bird-like position with white, I think it might be better to use the Larsen-Nimzowitsch move order and to hope black will play e5 before you go for f4.
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #14 - 01/21/10 at 06:49:34
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There is already a thread on how to insert diagrams: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1199562081/30#30

Btw, isn't 1.f4 d5 2.b3 c5 (or 2...Nf6 3.Bb2 d4) 3.Bb2 d4 meant to be completely fine for Black?
  

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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #13 - 01/21/10 at 01:18:30
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Apparently the fenword is very sensitive. My appologies for the hiccups.
  
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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #12 - 01/21/10 at 01:16:26
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Generating a Diagram at ChessPublishing
1.      Get a position from Chessbase or create one.
2.      Left click Copy Fen. This puts the fen notation in your clipboard.
3.      Open the Reply section in Chesspublishing.
4.      In ChessPublishing Reply type square bracket fen square bracket
5.      Then RC in blank document in ChessPublishing and select Paste
6.      Then type square bracket, forward slash, fen square bracket
7.      That’s it.
  
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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #11 - 01/21/10 at 01:13:34
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Generating a Diagram at ChessPublishing
1.      Get a position from Chessbase or create one.
2.      Left click Copy Fen. This puts the fen notation in your clipboard.
3.      Open the Reply section in Chesspublishing.
4.      In ChessPublishing Reply type X
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
without the X
7.      That’s it.
  
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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #10 - 01/21/10 at 01:11:34
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Birdbrain -- interesting posts.
Since you asked or implied the question:

Generating a Diagram at ChessPublishing
1.      Get a position from Chessbase or create one.
2.      Left click Copy Fen. This puts the fen notation in your clipboard.
3.      Open the Reply section in Chesspublishing.
4.      In ChessPublishing Reply type
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *

7.      That’s it.
  
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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #9 - 01/12/10 at 18:38:47
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I rather like the Nc3! approach - I think the king belongs on the queenside.  Often when I castle short, my king ends up on f2 so my rooks can hit the h-file, but with 0-0-0, this fixes some of those problems.
  
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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #8 - 01/12/10 at 16:27:12
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MNb, I found your line in an older post:

MNb wrote on 11/06/05 at 21:24:12:
1.f4 d5 2.b3 and 1...Nf6 2.b3 was already recommended by LM Picket in his 1975 booklet on the Bird. Very solid is 1.f4 d5 2.b3 Nf6 3.Bb2 c6 4.Nf3 Bg4. Violating copyrights (who can still find this booklet after all those years?) I type over:

5.e3 e6 6.Be2 Bd6 (Bxf3!?) 7.o-o o-o 8.Ne5 Bxe2 9.Qxe2 Nbd7 10.c4 Qe7
Black now has a solid position and should hold his own: 11.d3 Rad8 12.Nd2 Ne8 13.Ndf3 f6 14.Nxd7 Rxd7 = with approximately even chances.


I agree that White needs to improve here. I don't like Ne5 offering the exchange of the bishops. Perhaps White should deviate earlier: 6.h3 Bxf3 7.Qxf3 Nbd7 8.g4!? in Nimzowitsch/Danielsen style. Or 8.Nc3 planning 0-0-0 as played by Bricard and Gelashvili (!).

edit: Soltis in "Bird-Larsen Attack" also gives 6.h3 Bxf3 7.Qxf3 Nbd7 8.g4 "and 9.g5 will give White a nice spatial edge on the kingside".
In addition, he gives 5...Nbd7 6.h3 Bxf3 7.Qxf3 h5 and continues with Rogers-Brenninkmeijer 1990: 8.g3 Qc7 9.c4 e6 10.Nc3 Bc5 11.cxd5 exd5 12.Bd3, "followed by 13.0-0-0, 14.Kb1 and 15.g4 with a slight edge".
« Last Edit: 01/12/10 at 22:41:15 by linksspringer »  
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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #7 - 01/11/10 at 18:06:44
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Personally, I don't have a problem with anything we discuss on this forum - I simply chose one of many 1. f4 subjects.  The fact that it has not been yet covered is totally fine with me - it was more of a fire-starter than anything.

IMO, if Black chooses a solid setup, that is fine with me.  That means that the lines are not as forced - White has more room for adventurous play.  He can either choose to further strengthen his position, or look for neat positional and tactical variations that he would not get in the more critical lines (i.e. an early d5-c5). 
I totally agree with the assessment of pushing d4.  I remember studying Taylor's book and seeing Larsen handle the "anti-Bird" 1. f4 d5 2. Nf3 Bg4 3. e3 Nbd7 4. Be2 Bxf3 (I think capturing now - sort of tired, cannot remember exactly) 5. Bxf3 e5 6. d4...the e-pawn strengthens White's control of both d4 and f4.  So if exd (or exf), White still has the bishop pair and a solid position, nothing to balk at.  So Black "must" push the pawn to e4, and then White's main weakness, the e3 pawn, is masked, and he can proceed on the queenside with good play. 
I don't think there is anything wrong with handling a solid position for either side.  White often maintains a flexible position...the d4 pawn is a stronghold in the center that allows White to prepare which direction he wants to go.
  
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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #6 - 01/09/10 at 15:58:04
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MNb wrote on 01/09/10 at 04:10:34:
Sure, but losing the opening advantage as Black of course is not that big of a problem.

Of course. I still find the Black position rather unattractive after 8.d4 in the Bird situation, but admit that may be more of a personal taste than an objective assessment.
Quote:
It is a bit ironic that the idea I found the most attractive until now reflects BirdBrain's thoughts: 7.c3 Qd6 8.Na3 intending to meet ...e5 with fxe5 and Bf4. The knight goes to c2 to protect the weak square on e3.

Smiley Further irony: that is also Vigus' recommendation. He gives the following sample line:
1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.O-O O-O 6.d3 Nc6 7.c3 Qd6 8.Na3 Bg4 9.Kh1 Rad8 10.h3 Bxf3 11.Rxf3 e5 12.fxe5 Nxe5 13.Rf2
Quote:
1.f4 d5 2.b3 Nf6 3.Bb2 c6 4.Nf3 Bg4 5.e3 of course still is a game - but also a game that did not serve the white side very well in the past. The horrendous score of 39% for White indicates that it demands a closer look if one is going to play 1.f4.

As a general remark, I often find that Black scores considerably better in the reversed colour situation. A tip for Bird players: study the strategies and ideas employed by strong players of the Dutch when confronting anti-Dutch lines.

In this particular line: I suppose Black's idea is to prepare for ...e5 with Nbd7/Qc7/Bxf3 or Nbd7/e6/Bd6/Bxf3. It looks advisable for White to play d4 when ...e5 can no longer be prevented. That Stonewall should offer some chances, since White has the bishop pair and good control of e4. But.... I found quite a few games where White castles short, Black castles long and then proceeds to batter White's kingside with ...g5. The lesson seems to be that White should not commit to castling too early.
  
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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #5 - 01/09/10 at 04:10:34
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linksspringer wrote on 01/09/10 at 03:42:47:
OK, thanks for the explanation.
1.d4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.0-0 0-0 6.Nc3 c6 7.Qd3 d5
I am aware that the same line exists with colours reversed, but in that line White has played the non-critical 6.Nc3 instead of 6.c4, which in my opinion loses the opening advantage.

Sure, but losing the opening advantage as Black of course is not that big of a problem. It is a bit ironic that the idea I found the most attractive until now reflects BirdBrain's thoughts: 7.c3 Qd6 8.Na3 intending to meet ...e5 with fxe5 and Bf4. The knight goes to c2 to protect the weak square on e3.

1.f4 d5 2.b3 Nf6 3.Bb2 c6 4.Nf3 Bg4 5.e3 of course still is a game - but also a game that did not serve the white side very well in the past. The horrendous score of 39% for White indicates that it demands a closer look if one is going to play 1.f4.
  

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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #4 - 01/09/10 at 03:42:47
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OK, thanks for the explanation.
1.d4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.0-0 0-0 6.Nc3 c6 7.Qd3 d5
I am aware that the same line exists with colours reversed, but in that line White has played the non-critical 6.Nc3 instead of 6.c4, which in my opinion loses the opening advantage. In both cases I then prefer the Leningrad side, but that is just my personal preference. Again, I'll look up Vigus' recommendation tomorrow.
  
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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #3 - 01/09/10 at 03:17:07
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I realize that. Sorry if I was unclear, but I already had posted those two lines in that other thread on the Bird. Because of this
BirdBrain wrote on 01/08/10 at 20:03:48:
Okay, I am creating a new thread, with hopes that we can discuss either side of the board after 1. f4.  I value ideas for both Black and White, as they can help me and others in our choices. 

I felt permitted to mention them again.
I would be grateful if you posted Vigus' recommendation. Your line basically hands over the right to move first to Black. 1.d4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.0-0 0-0 6.Nc3 c6 7.Qd3 d5 is exactly the same: colours reversed and no extra tempo.
  

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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #2 - 01/09/10 at 01:38:32
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MNb wrote on 01/08/10 at 22:32:44:
You haven't addressed 1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 g6 3.g3 Bg7 4.Bg2 Nf6 5.0-0 0-0 6.d3 Nc6. After 6.d3 c5 I would prefer 7.Qe1. White has some chances to use the extra tempo compared to Malaniuk's 7...Qe8.

Neither do you mention 1.f4 d5 2.b3 Nf6 3.Bb2 c6 4.Nf3 Bg4.
Both lines are extremely solid - and I have mentioned them before.


1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 g6 3.g3 Bg7 4.Bg2 Nf6 5.0-0 0-0 6.d3 Nc6
I have played 7.c3 Qd6 8.d4!? here, with good results. The Leningrad Stonewall makes the Nc6 look silly. I know that Vigus has a different recommendation in "Beware the Polar Bear!". I'll look it up tomorrow.

1.f4 d5 2.b3 Nf6 3.Bb2 c6 4.Nf3 Bg4.
5.e3 with a game. Yes, it is solid. So are many other setups for Black mentioned by others than you. His question was about the differences in playing g3/Bg2 with or without putting the other bishop on b2, in the context of Black playing d5/Nf6/g6/Bg7/c5. You can't expect him to address every anti-Bird system under the sun.
  
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Re: Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
Reply #1 - 01/08/10 at 22:32:44
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You haven't addressed 1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 g6 3.g3 Bg7 4.Bg2 Nf6 5.0-0 0-0 6.d3 Nc6. After 6.d3 c5 I would prefer 7.Qe1. White has some chances to use the extra tempo compared to Malaniuk's 7...Qe8.

Neither do you mention 1.f4 d5 2.b3 Nf6 3.Bb2 c6 4.Nf3 Bg4.
Both lines are extremely solid - and I have mentioned them before.
  

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Discussion of 1. f4 approaches
01/08/10 at 20:03:48
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Okay, I am creating a new thread, with hopes that we can discuss either side of the board after 1. f4.  I value ideas for both Black and White, as they can help me and others in our choices. 

The first setup I want to discuss is the difference between the traditional Polar Bear setup and the Double Fianchetto setup.

The Polar Bear (or reversed Leningrad) is seen as such - 1. f4 d5 2. Nf3 g6 3. g3 Bg7 4. Bg2 Nf6 5. 0-0 0-0 6. d3 c5 7. c3 Nc6 8. Na3... (I apologize, I have not yet learned how to post chess diagrams on here yet...) - White obviously encourages Black to advance his queenside pawns, and in the meantime he is preparing a kingside pawn storm. 

But in the Double Fianchetto setup, White seeks a different approach... 1. f4 d5 2. b3 Nf6 3. Bb2 g6 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. g3 0-0 6. Bg2 c5 7. 0-0 ...from here, I won't go much deeper.  But these systems are both of interest for a 1. f4 player.

One strong plus that I love of the Polar Bear is the power of the small move c3!  This move consolidates much of White's position, and gives him flexible dynamics, but then again, the bishop is on the back diagonal...a good place for him is e3-f1 or g1 in some instances.  But obviously Bb2 is more dynamic...

Any opinions?
  
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