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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) forcing the MB via 2.Nf3 g6 3.c4 c5 4.d5 e6 (Read 17521 times)
Girkassa
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Re: forcing the MB via 2.Nf3 g6 3.c4 c5 4.d5 e6
Reply #20 - 01/18/10 at 11:25:35
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I know statistics shouldn't be trusted blindly, but in my database, White scores an impressive 67 % in the specific 9.exd5 line that BPaulsen mentions.

As discussed in another thread, Black can avoid the Taimanov with a move order like 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 d6, following up with 4...g6 5...Bg7 6...0-0 and only then 7...e6, and yet that move order is not very popular. I know the Taimanov is not an issue in this thread, as White has already played 2.Nf3, but there should be a reason why most players prefer 3...e6 and 4...exd5, and I thought the extra possibility of exd5 was the most important one.

Besides, 9.exd5 looks consistent with the rest of the repertoire: Solid lines, not the most critical ones, but still with decent chances for a small advantage.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: forcing the MB via 2.Nf3 g6 3.c4 c5 4.d5 e6
Reply #19 - 01/17/10 at 05:03:22
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Thanks for the references!

Krasenkow's article and games deals with the Bagirov system (h3) in the KID, but Hoember's move order should be able to transpose.

Krasenkow gives a compelling argument, and I'm going to have to study those games because I'm not very familiar with the Bagirov system either.   

Thanks again for the citation!
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: forcing the MB via 2.Nf3 g6 3.c4 c5 4.d5 e6
Reply #18 - 01/17/10 at 04:43:24
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 01/17/10 at 04:41:25:
I don't have access to Krasenkow's article, but you're right about polemics.  I'll be a bit more concrete:  White has a space advantage, but I don't see a convincing way to play for the win here.  I've seen the old games of Petrosian and others and am curious to see what Krasenkow has in mind to demonstrate winning chances.

I don't like Black's position in the KID, but I find the Modern Benoni positions after cd5 to be much richer.  

Would you recommend ed5 over cd5 to your students?


In that line - yes, if they normally don't face the Benoni (ie: play with 1. c4 or 1. Nf3). For a 1. d4 player maybe yes, maybe no, depending on their repertoire already in place.

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=5845

http://www.chessbase.com/cbm/cbm132e/cbm132-05/E90_Krasenkow_g.htm#game1

The analysis is there.

And it requires some technique to play for the win, but that's true for any opening.
  

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Re: forcing the MB via 2.Nf3 g6 3.c4 c5 4.d5 e6
Reply #17 - 01/17/10 at 04:41:25
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I don't have access to Krasenkow's article, but you're right about polemics.  I'll be a bit more concrete:  White has a space advantage, but I don't see a convincing way to play for the win here.  I've seen the old games of Petrosian and others and am curious to see what Krasenkow has in mind to demonstrate winning chances.

I don't like Black's position in the KID, but I find the Modern Benoni positions after cd5 to be much richer.   

Would you recommend ed5 over cd5 to your students?
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: forcing the MB via 2.Nf3 g6 3.c4 c5 4.d5 e6
Reply #16 - 01/17/10 at 00:18:27
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 01/16/10 at 05:35:37:
White probably retains a very slight pull in the ed5 KID lines, but I still believe that White's best chance for a real advantage lies with cd5 and the Modern Benoni.


Polemics like "real advantage" are pointless, especially when white's += comes easily in the exd5 line I mentioned. Krasenkow covers it in his CBM article.
  

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Re: forcing the MB via 2.Nf3 g6 3.c4 c5 4.d5 e6
Reply #15 - 01/16/10 at 05:35:37
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White probably retains a very slight pull in the ed5 KID lines, but I still believe that White's best chance for a real advantage lies with cd5 and the Modern Benoni.
  
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Re: forcing the MB via 2.Nf3 g6 3.c4 c5 4.d5 e6
Reply #14 - 01/16/10 at 05:05:12
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1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. 0-0 0-0 6. h3 c5 7. d5 e6 8. Bd3 exd5 9. exd5 comes to mind as one that's +=, even though it's technically a KID, but white can play the Modern Benoni via 9. cxd5.
  

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Re: forcing the MB via 2.Nf3 g6 3.c4 c5 4.d5 e6
Reply #13 - 01/16/10 at 03:43:38
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OT, but there are several ...ed5 ed5 lines (which could be reached in this case) which have been considered by some sources (including Nunn's Chess Openings, incidentally) to be "+=".  It certainly isn't clear to me that one can make such a statement about ed5 being inferior to cd5.   
  
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Re: forcing the MB via 2.Nf3 g6 3.c4 c5 4.d5 e6
Reply #12 - 01/16/10 at 01:46:47
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Trading epawns (...ed5 ed5) is not as strong for white as cd5.  Yes, there are certain tactics available to Black on the semi-open file that would not otherwise be available, but White has both a practical and a theoretical advantage with cd5 compared to ed5. John Nunn describes (7.)ed5 as "dull and harmless" and practice seems to support him.

From a theoretical perspective, the most testing line is the Modern Benoni with cd5 for white.  Whether you wish to avoid the most testing line is your choice, but it's objectively inferior.
  
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Re: forcing the MB via 2.Nf3 g6 3.c4 c5 4.d5 e6
Reply #11 - 01/15/10 at 22:14:04
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MNb wrote on 01/15/10 at 21:26:35:
Like I wrote above - by answering ...e6 with dxe6. Another option, which I had forgotten is answering ...e6 with e4 followed by ...exd5 exd5.
Eg 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.c4 c5 4.d5 d6 5.Nc3 e6 and now either 6.dxe6 or 6.e4 exd5 7.exd5.


Exactly what I wanted to write. (6.e4 exd5 7.exd5 and White has a comfortable space advantage already. Black can't force me to take back with the c-pawn unless he does it early enough, but that's impossible following these move-orders. )
  

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*W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc)
*B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6| 1Nf3:c5
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Re: forcing the MB via 2.Nf3 g6 3.c4 c5 4.d5 e6
Reply #10 - 01/15/10 at 21:26:35
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Like I wrote above - by answering ...e6 with dxe6. Another option, which I had forgotten is answering ...e6 with e4 followed by ...exd5 exd5.
Eg 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.c4 c5 4.d5 d6 5.Nc3 e6 and now either 6.dxe6 or 6.e4 exd5 7.exd5.
  

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Re: forcing the MB via 2.Nf3 g6 3.c4 c5 4.d5 e6
Reply #9 - 01/15/10 at 18:41:15
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4..e6?! 5.Nc3 ed5? 6.Bg5 looks like the appropriate punishment for Black's careless play.  5...Bg7 or perhaps 5....d6 seems more to the point.

So, if you're building a repertoire around the premise that Black makes a mistake, this makes sense.  But otherwise?

I don't see how white would avoid the Modern Benoni after 4...d6 or 4...Bg7 instead of the mistake 4...e6?!/?
  
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Re: forcing the MB via 2.Nf3 g6 3.c4 c5 4.d5 e6
Reply #8 - 01/14/10 at 19:42:21
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HoemberChess wrote on 01/14/10 at 06:27:39:

I play d5 immediately in reply to to ..c5 wherever possible.

Ok. I'd be content with a Maroczy but to each his own.
  
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Re: forcing the MB via 2.Nf3 g6 3.c4 c5 4.d5 e6
Reply #7 - 01/14/10 at 18:15:16
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I agree, White's repertoire is consistent. e3 is much stronger when Black has committed himself to ...e6. I have never thought of that move order issue before, as I'm gladly facing the MB anyway, but my first impression is that 6.Bg5 looks very strong. Given the lack of games in this line, there can hardly be much theory on this, but I don't envy Black's task in the game, and the alternatives look even worse:

6...d4? 7.Nxd4! cxd4? 8.Qxd4 Be7 9.Nd5 +-;
6...Be7 7.cxd5 is a misunderstood MB;
6...Bg7 7.Nxd5 doesn't look appealing for Black either.
  
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Re: forcing the MB via 2.Nf3 g6 3.c4 c5 4.d5 e6
Reply #6 - 01/14/10 at 06:27:39
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I play d5 immediately in reply to to ..c5 wherever possible. But in that move-order I have nothing better than c4. (3.Nc3/Bg5/Bf4/e3 are not an option to me versus an early ..g6. I don't want to give details of my repertoire, for that would be offtopic and nobody would read this topic any more, but believe me, it is consistent.)
The Modern Benoni is a move-order sensitive thing. (For example, Black wouldn't be able to force it with a white pawn already on e4, even if there is another on c4, which can still be called a Benoni, KID, Benko, etc.)
  

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*W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc)
*B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6| 1Nf3:c5
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